and it's not even close. Thoughts?
and it's not even close. Thoughts?
true. best talent evaluator we've ever had and that's a big part of it. we've hit GA, AL, and LA better than ever before.
No, he said, "Mullen is the best recruiter MSU has had, at least in the recruiting rankings era."Quote:
Originally Posted by TopDog58
So that really only compares Mullen to Croom.
I will say our overall talent level is at decent level and getting better though. Mullen hasn't recruited near as bad as some of the recruiting rankings want you to believe. He evaluates well and finds value in overlooked players.
I will give Mullen and staff credit for finding "diamonds in the rough" but I think that is more out of necessity because they don't get many highly visible big time top end recruits outside of what's available in Mississippi. And as far as a recruiter I don't personally feel he is anywhere close to the best we've had as far as "recruiting skills". I would put Rockey and Jackie both above him on that. And Tyler in his day was probably better than either of those two. The fact of the matter is MSU is MUCH, MUCH more attractive now to recruits than it ever has been before. Part of that is because almost EVERY kid in the Southeast and even a lot outside the Southeast want to play in the SEC. Heck, I can remember the days of struggling with USM or some other non-SEC school over a recruit but that just doesn't happen anymore. Being a member of the SEC has lifted our stature regardless of who the coach is. And then on top of that we've put millions upon millions into facility upgrades and the fanbase has been phenomenal filling up the stadium over the past 5 years. Mullen is a weak recruiter personally but has got a few staff members that are pretty good but overall I feel like we are definitely recruiting a little below what we potentially could be. As mentioned before we've got OL prospects that won't give us the time of day because they absolutely do not want to play for Hevesy.Quote:
Originally Posted by TopDog58
You make many correct points, but when I watch us play, I don't see a talent level that is drastically behind anyone we play, with the exception being at the receiver position.Quote:
Originally Posted by maroonmania
The answer is probably somewhere in the middle. Mullen struggles to get the top recruits that everyone thinks are good, but does a great job of getting really good players that are late bloomers or under the radar, because he is a good evaluator.
Its the difference makers we are missing and that is where you need a top notch recruiting staff to pull those in. We do not anywhere near have the depth of talent or top end talent that the upper SEC has. We have no real difference makers at WR. Lewis is the best we have but he does not really stretch the field. At OL we are super thin. Why do you think with ONE injury 2 of our top 3 Guards are a walk on and a true freshman. Our Tackles are Clausell and Siddoway who are decent but not much behind them. Robinson apparently will always be below average and Senior isn't really ready for big time SEC yet.Quote:
Originally Posted by ShotgunDawg
Defensively things are better but our secondary is still probably below average in talent. Brewster came close to getting us a big time DB or two last year but struck out. DL and LB we are probably OK but the failure of getting the talent out of Quay and Nick has hurt us depth wise as we are having to depend heavily on Chris Jones and Nelson Adams. Quay and Nick probably became easier for us to get BECAUSE they have some issues. Right now I think we have talent to play competitively with a little over half the SEC but lack the difference makers to really compete with the SEC elite. Still feel like upgrading our OL talent is the single biggest thing we could do to get better.
Mullen inherited 12 nfl players from Croom. Mullen has signed 1 nfl player on his own, Vick Ballard.Quote:
Originally Posted by ShotgunDawg
Thats because his first two recruiting classes were mostly garbage. He'll have plenty in the coming years.
Listening to head to head Monday Wyatt said that in his opinion that the issue at MSU is not lack of talent. He thinks it is lack of sharpness to use his term. He said you will see them play, as a team, very good for stretches at a time but then a player will be out of position and allow a big play and that sometimes those players that are out of position are seniors. For me, reading between the lines, Wyatt thinks we have the talent on the roster to at least compete with the big boys but just don't have the mental focus or toughness. Sounds to me as if he is pointing a finger square at the coaching staff.
That talent is mostly young, though, so in some ways it's understandable they would also not be as mentally tough or focused as you'd like.
Where I see biggest difference is on the O Line... Watching Mizzou the other night I realized that we are not as good as most teams in the SEC across the front... If he can improve this area we can have success.
No doubt the coaching staff had to take much of the blame, but what Matt described is also the symptoms of young team. And it's hard for myself and others to separate what is a coaching problem and what is just an immaturity problem.Quote:
Originally Posted by starkvegasdawg
At this point in the season, the young guys have played a lot of football though. Starting this weekend, I am longer considering problems "young player" mistakes. There has been ample time at this point to iron them out.
I don't give a 5th-year coach a pass on his team making "young team" mistakes. We're young at key spots because of the coaching staff, so I see no reason they get to use that as a crutch.
There is no doubt that it is the coaching staff's fault that we are young in spots. Their first 2 recruiting classes sucked and that's is their fault and why we are young. However, the last 2 and this year's have solid talent and good players in it.Quote:
Originally Posted by bluelightstar
So you just have to make a decision as to whether or not you think it's going in the right direction. I'm guessing that even the coaches would tell you it's their fault we are young and that their first few recruiting classes were weak.
So I think we are in general agreement. I agree that our recruiting has been "OK" at least recently, the 2010 and 2011 classes were not even at that level for what you need to compete in the SEC but the 2012 and 2013 classes and the commits for 2014 look to be better, still not up to what a great recruiting coach could do for us, but definitely better. I also agree that the OLine is the biggest factor holding us back followed by a game breaker type at the WR position or at least somebody opposing defenses have to respect deep.Quote:
Originally Posted by BogeyGolfer
I hate reading stuff like this. Those first two recruiting classes were filled with guys have that bled and sacrificed to help us win on the gridiron. If you want to argue about their talent level, then fine. Calling them "garbage" is ridiculous and unwarranted. These are OUR guys.Quote:
Originally Posted by ShotgunDawg
Sorry, I support and am thankful for all MSU players. My word choice was poor.Quote:
Originally Posted by DawgInMemphis
AgreeQuote:
Originally Posted by DawgInMemphis
I think he's brought in some VERY good players, and formed a strong base of depth. I would like to see him not screw up guys like Johnson and Mix in the future though. I don't care too much about the primadonnas (Brassell, Singleton) but I want to see us get the MSU guys for sure. Johnson and Mix were MSU guys. I'd go so far as to say that Johnson has the swagger that this team so desperately has needed for the past two years.
I am so tired of hearing young team. I swear that is the most used term at MSU in any sport we arent doing well in. True freshman play on good teams all around the country.
Quote:
Originally Posted by HoopsDawg
False. Starting with the 2009 class, those players may have "committed" to Croom, but they signed on the dotted line, and were thusly coached their entire careers, by Mullen and Co.
Johnthan Banks
Fletcher Cox
Chris White (scout)
Pernell McPhee
Cam Lawrence (scout)
Darius Slay (twice
Gabe Jackson (will be)
They had every opportunity to jump ship after our coaching change, yet Mullen must have convinced them to stick around. Not only that, McPhee, Bump and Slay committed after the coaching change. These guys didn't as much step on a practice field with Croom, so please quit attributing their successes to him. It's not a good argument in your favor.
Future NFL players recruited by Mullen
Dillon Day (possibly)
Malcolm Johnson (possibly)
Jameon Lewis (possibly)
Bernardrick McKinney (High pick possibly)
Preston Smith (possibly)
Thats not even looking at the 2012 and 2013 classes that have barely had time to produce, yet were more talented than 2010 and 2011 for us.
Look, I'm firmly off the Mullen train unless he completely "wow's" us and turns it around. However, I'm also a realist. As a positive, he has recruited over-looked guys extremely well. He is undoubtedly a good eye for talent. As with our on the field play, his biggest positive that he has provided us is this: He has raised our floor. Our "base" or "foundation" of role players is much better than it was before. We've gotten a few five starts and several four stars thrown in, especially last year. Now, this seasons class is more akin to the 2010 class as it stands today. Also, a negative is that outside maybe Shumpert or Fred Ross, he hasn't recruited a single player that I'd consider "elite offensive talent" which is not good for an offensive coach. If you look at our recruiting, most of our stars have been on the defensive side.
Plain and simple fact is that our rival's successes on the recruiting trail have complicated the matter.
Mullen is not a terrible recruiter if you look at his classes from an unbiased perspective. However, he isn't what I'd consider "good" either. He's decent, at best. The big negative is that decent is good for bottom 3 in our conference, and at the end of the day, that's all that matters. We've got to find someone, whether it be new HC or an awesome assistant, or both, that can help us climb the ladder and land elite offensive talent to match the rest of our peers in the SEC. It's just the sad truth of playing in such a powerhouse conference. If we were to average a class in the 20s or 30s in a lesser conference we'd be looking at this from the other side.
The ranking era goes back to JWS. JWS had number 17 in both rivals and scouts in 2002. Side note: Alambam had the 37th class that year.Quote:
Originally Posted by ShotgunDawg
I think JWS brought in more talent but JWS was getting some help with money to bring in these guys. I don't think Mullen is too that point yet.
One obvious area where Jackie was much superior to Mullen re: recruiting.... hitting the JUCOs. We have to have JUCO help. Ballard and Chris White were great. Slay came on there late. Autry has never fully "clicked" and we've yet to see what we thought out of Cox or Chappelle.
I agree, BUT....you must remember that King Jackie exploited a loophole in the JUCO system that the SEC has now closed. There is an article about it out there somewhere. MSU and K-State were always the biggest beneficiaries of this hole because somehow we could offer a way to graduate the JUCOs that other schools couldn't, and the fact that there were so many JUCOs in Kansas and Mississippi. SEC closed it, Big 12 did not. That's why you see a number of MS JUCOs going out to play in the Big 12 here lately when they wanted to stay in the SEC.
I'm fairly certain that Mullen is well aware of the talent in the MS JUCO ranks.
Darius Slay alsoQuote:
Originally Posted by HoopsDawg
Quote:
Originally Posted by Goat Holder
I don't think it was a loop hole. The rule use to be anyone could transfer after three semesters. They changed that rule to, if you were not qualified to get into a four year school when you go Juco, you have to complete four semesters of work before you can transfer and play football. JWS was able to recruit anyone out of the JUCO ranks and have them on campus in January to go through spring training. Now many of them can’t transfer until summer and miss spring training. So a lot of guys don’t get recruited if they can’t transfer.
Our OL is ok- we can run the football. We don't have top level WR's- and that plays a big part in us not getting enough big plays. Our drives are always 8-10-12 plays to get pointsQuote:
Originally Posted by BogeyGolfer
That's what give me a positive attitude about next season. We got talent in the WR corp, they just don't know how to get off coverage and get open. Next year with the WR corps and our QB being exsperience and with all the young running backs we have, our offense is going to be hard to stop.Quote:
Originally Posted by Coach34
I think you're mis-guided there. There was some sort of advantage that MSU had over other SEC schools, something about the ability to graduate them, credits transferring, etc.
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/foo...1/preview/mmq/
Quote:
Don't expect the Bulldogs to drop off this season. Never mind that they have lost more of their defense. They have reloaded by recruiting a number of junior college standouts.
That's hardly a shocker. No other coach in the SEC has capitalized on junior college recruits like Sherrill. Junior college recruits don't just sign with Mississippi State; they graduate, which Sherrill obviously uses as a selling point in recruiting.
"There are two schools in the country with the ability to make [junior college recruiting] work," Sherrill said. "Mississippi State and Kansas State. The difference is the ability to graduate them."
Is He kidding--Bob Tyler and it ain't even close
Mullen is the best evaluator we've had. No question. He's far from the best actual recruiter though. I think this likely comes into focus with the next coach -- as it becomes clear the advantages being able to say we're in the SEC provides today that it didn't provide for much of the rankings history prior to Mullen.
To win at the level you'd like to see at MSU, you need to be a little bit of both a recruiter and evaluator -- or smart/humble enough to realize shortcomings and hire to overcome them.
Our OL is not all that OK. We are suppose to be a redshirting, developmental program yet due to one injury to a starting G we are now in year 5 starting and giving significant playing time to a former walk-on and a true freshman. That either means that we've misevaluated the talent and potential of a number of other OL in the program that aren't seeing the field OR our developmental program is not getting lineman developed to the level of playing in the SEC. I could run down the list of formerly redshirted, non-true freshmen OL on the roster not seeing any significant playing time but I think most of you know who they are. We don't lack numbers, we lack SEC ability apparently. We are at about 7 OL that we have trust in putting into an SEC game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Coach34
Dude, does the name DESHEA TOWNSEND ring a bell??Quote:
Originally Posted by engie
I get it, you want Mullen gone. But you're off the mark on more things than usual here lately.
Slay was a sign and place that committed to Croom. Most sign and places re-sign with their original commitment. I give Mullen no credit for any of the players in the 2009 class. Bumphis is debatable but Bump didn't make the NFL.Quote:
Originally Posted by Coach34
Why can I not debate a single topic without you retards coming in and derailing it? I gave a realistic viewpoint of Mullen and gave him credit where credit is due.
Who has Deshea Townsend landed for us at this point that wasn't a lock to MSU regardless of who their coach was? You can call a guy a "great recruiter" all you want -- I think he probably can be in the right situation and given time -- but until he goes into Georgia and grabs a guy with 30+ offers like Ole Miss did yesterday, he hasn't proven jack shit "as a recruiter".Quote:
Originally Posted by Goat Holder
http://my.jetscreenshot.com/12222/m_...-echr-98kb.jpg
Deshea is credited with 4 recruits. Here are their offer lists.
Bryant - USM, MSU
Liggins - MSU, UAB
Rayford - MSU
Durr - MSU, La Tech, ULL, Oklahoma
He's the secondary recruiter on Durr with Koenning primary.
This is the guy you are calling an elite recruiter right now? The guy that hasn't picked up a SINGLE player with even an Ole Miss offer? The guy that's the SEVENTY FIFTH best recruiter in the SEC as of today?
Take your medicine goat.
[QUOTE=engie;80983]Mullen is the best evaluator we've had. No question. He's far from the best actual recruiter though.
I see a lot of people give Mullen credit for being an excellent "evaluator" or "developer". But just because some of these lightly recruited players see game action doesn't make him a great evaluator. If you sign 5 heavily recruited players and 20 lightly recruited players every year, yeah some of the 20 are going to have to play.
Look at our results since 2010 and ask what it has gotten us in terms of performance.
He put 2 3* cornerbacks with no offers in the second round that are opening day starters in the NFL.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoopsDawg
He's going to put a 3* offensive guard with no offers in the first/second round in the NFL.
He put a 3* RB with no offers in the NFL -- where he was kicking ass as a starter prior to injury.
He's got a 2* mLB with no offers that is likely to eventually go EARLY in the draft.
There's plenty there at this point to say that he's evaluated diamond/low rated players very, very well. Fact of the matter is -- low-offer kids that we committed early in his first 4 classes have had a higher "hit" rate than the high-offer guys we committed early. I've shown this in conclusive detail before.
There is PLENTY to rightly be pissed at Mullen about. Player evaluations is not one of those things...
Quit getting your panties twisted when someone calls you on your shit.
Quit "calling me" on stupid shit that I can destroy in 30 seconds...Quote:
Originally Posted by Goat Holder
He's he 7th best recruiter on MSU's staff as of today, 11 spots behind Hevesy. He's 75th in the SEC.
But, hey, you showed me**
He didn't evaluate Banks, Croom did. Mullen is quoted as saying he wondered why this Banks kid was on the commit list until he saw his video.Quote:
Originally Posted by engie
Mullen had Slay for 2 years. He didn't even start him his junior year opting to go with the veteran, Broomfield. Slay was an All American return guy in Juco that Mullen never let return a punt or kickoff. Slay ran the fastest 40 yard dash at the combine. He was going pro even if he signed with William and Mary.
The 3 star guard you mentioned, again, committed to Croom. Are you trying to tell me that Mullen is good at evaluating O-linemen? LOL to that one.
Ballard was a Juco All-American RB. But yes, fortunately no other major schools really offered him.
McKinney going really early in the draft is pure speculation at this point. I don't see it right now.