In football?
How did they turn things around?
I'm curious because it has had to have happened. What I want to know is what did it take to make the program a success and are we capable of doing the same if we all pull in the same direction?
Can we ever be "All In"?
Kansas State is the one who comes to mind for me. Have to look at similar Land Grant/Ag/State type schools in low population states. Iowa State and Texas Tech are others. But you also have to factor in that they have less competition (and each other) game per game, year per year. But we have more available talent in proximity to us too.
Bottom line, you put the right coach in place, suddenly you're winning. Snyder seems to be the only guy who can get it done at K-State. Dan McCarney got it done at Iowa State, but it took him 6 years just to have a winning season....and Seneca Wallace. But even he was fired once expectations were raised. Leach obviously got it done at Texas Tech.
Virginia Tech may be another comparison, but I think they have more resources than we do. Auburn and Clemson are certainly a notch above us.
As far as what those programs did, I feel like it's finding the right niche. I post alot about what MSU has to do 'outside the box' to be successful. I thought for the longest time it was to have an offensive coach like Mullen, and sort of still do. All our successful coaches have had a sound offensive plan and a good DC. In Jackie's bad years, it was because his defense sucked.
South Carolina would be the only example.Quote:
Originally Posted by Op4isabitch
Va Tech, Ok State, TCU, Michigan State, etc. would all be somewhat similar, but they didn't do it in the SEC and I can't consider anyone outside of the SEC doing it anywhere similar to difficulty we face.
Its not even in the same stratosphere to have to do it in the SEC versus somewhere else. I honestly think that if you put Oregon in the SEC West, their program would begin to fall in 3-5 years. Different neighborhood.
All of your examples are teams outside of the SEC. Just not the same.Quote:
Originally Posted by Goat Holder
VaTech... for sure and that's a model we are following somewhat. if we'd quit being so damn commercialized at the games our venue would rival theirs too.
Virginia = OM
VaTech = State
have tough competition in nearby states (Carolina's, Tennessee, W. Virginia,) and play in a good conference.
Va tech didnt have anything resources wise until abou the mid 90s. Baylor had hardly any football history. Kstate won due to great JUCO recruiting Oregon state and Oklahoma state are also good examples.
the sec hasn't always been the best conference in the country. it's a cyclical thing and it'll change again eventually. conference realignment is a major, major risk to the sec in terms of losing their strangle hold on the CFB world.
ACC, Big Ten, and PAC[insert random #] will challenge again soon for the dominant conference.
Another question if I may:
Who decides how much of our athletics budget is used on football? Could that be a major factor in how we progress?
For example, if the purse strings were loosened to allow Mullen to bring in type flight assistants, could we progress quicker?
We had more revenue from football than o.m last season, sometimes you have to spend money to make money, is that something we need to do here at M.S.U?
It has been my belief that out of the funds allocated to football coaches salary's Mullen gets the majority. To upgrade assistants we need to increase the pursue for assistants coaches. Mo money mo cruitsQuote:
Originally Posted by Op4isabitch
I see most of you are too young to remember. Florida State used to be a perennial homecoming opponent for many SEC schools, pre Bowden. Oregon was also limited with occasional greatness prior to Rich Brooks. Brooks was not necessarily great but began the winning environment.
Well traveling 2500 miles for every road game would wear down any team.Quote:
Originally Posted by ShotgunDawg
Well the question was not what SEC only teams were similar to MSU. In that regard, the only one I can think of would be Ole Miss. Kentucky has more resources and located in a bigger state. South Carolina has every bit the population/talent advantage of Alabama. Census.gov, my friend.
Kansas State is the best overall example for MSU to follow. JUCO recrootin is a must. A sound offensive system is another, as well as a good DC. At MSU, we'll always have defensive talent, just need a coach who won't **** it up (think Dunn, Diaz, Johnson, Collins vs. Torbush, Wilson, Cooper, etc.). All successful MSU coaches were successful on offense.....Bellard, Tyler, Mullen. Jackie at least knew what he wanted to do and executed it: big OL and a punishing running game. And what he didn't know, he made up with special teams.
I think Mullen is exactly what we need, to be honest. He just needs to get some things ironed out.
I agree KState is a good model to follow because of the Juco similarities, but let's be honest here... Everyone from Bama to FSU uses the MS Juco system. It's not like we have nearly the strangle hold on it like KState does in Kansas, but that doesnt mean we can't take lessons from them to apply at State.
I just feel like VaTech is the best example... small town, two major in-state schools, surrounded by other states with great programs, public, land grant, A&M school, tough conference, not flashy, lunch pail carrying, hard working people.
Virginia has a population of 8 million people. Blacksburg is home to 42K. Mississippi has a population of 3 million. Starkville has 24K people. I guess if you count the whole Golden Triangle area we might measure up, but Blacksburg has other towns around it too. I will say that geographically they aren't in the best spot, the University of Virginia sits between them and both Richmond, Norfolk and DC, where I assume much of their enrollment comes from.
With Manhattan, KS, not only do they have the JUCO system (everybody uses theirs too), they also have the military base nearby. It's the 100% perfect comparison.
JUCOs is another area where the SEC ****ed us. That loophole that Jackie exploited that was something tied to MSU only, is now gone. So it's possible that the SEC is our worst enemy in this whole deal......hardest competition and internally handicapped among our peers. I guess technically we are equal, but every time we find a way to exploit a loophole and create an advantage for ourselves, we get slapped back down. That hasn't happened with Kansas State and the Big 12. That's why you see alot of MS JUCO guys head out to Texas or wherever here lately. Something about taking of credits, I'm not sure, but it's cost us a few recruits in recent years. But we still HAVE to have them, look at all our JUCO contributors from recent years. Most of the time they are our biggest stars.
South Carolina. They were horrendous in the 90's. They built a strong game day atmosphere, made some good hires and were in a state that experienced strong population growth. Their timing was impeccable, as the East weakened in the 2000's, they were able to emerge as a contender.
Texas A&M - Politically disadvantaged in their state. Very similar school. Similar city. Starkville is Las Vegas compared to College Station. And College Station is in the middle of nowhere on a Texas scale.
South Carolina
Miami. Population off a major city is offset by their complete lack of fan support. But they used to be a nobody before they were Jimmy Johnson's dynasty. We used to play and beat them for Homecoming.
Nothing in common football-wise with the U or Texas A+M. Not currently anyways. Unless we find an ocean of oil directly under the Drill field, or the Golden Triangle becomes a hotbed of recruiting nationally we won't be anytime soon.Quote:
Originally Posted by FlabLoser
Good Lord, you can't be any farther from the truth.
College Station has a population of 97K. So we honestly should stop there. On top of that, they have the entire state of TEXAS to call their 'home state' which aids in recruiting. Texas A&M is Mississippi State on super steroids. They are on the level of Auburn and Clemson from a football perspective.
South Carolina has been hashed out already. Sort of similar tradition but they have more resources.
Miami? Seriously? On top of that, we are 2-3 all-time vs. them, we beat them in 1980 and 1981, two of our best teams ever.
Pretty bad post overall IMO. Not many facts in there.
It seems that we could be the South Carolina of the west. Their football history is similar to ours as far as (non)success is concerned. Also note that it has taken a combination of Holtz and Spurrier to get them to where they are now, and they are still not considered "elite". Holtz took over in 1999,so it has taken them 14 years to get where they are. Many are panicking in year 5 of Mullen, and not to defend Mullen but the last 5 years have been a helluva lot better than the previous 8. So I see progress. Mullen may not be the long term solution but if he were to leave for whatever reason, I'll always be grateful for what he's done.
Kansas State is the best comparison when you look at geography, city size, academic status, and football history. It took them one of the 3 overall best modern football coaches, and they still never could quite win a national title.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Goat Holder
97k in College Station has to include the 50,000 aTm students. There's not a lot there. I've seen it.
Yeah, Miami. Until the late 80s/early 90s, they were a crap program.
I've seen it too, and know that Bryan which is literally beside CS (think MSU being next to Starkville) has another 80K by itself. The area combines for nearly 200K. Bigger than Athens.Quote:
Originally Posted by FlabLoser
As to the Las Vegas comparison, Starkville doesn't hold a candle to CS.
Kansas State has been the most successful program that we could emulate, but the most MSU-like BCS school is Washington State.
Pullman, WA has a population of 24,675, they have another university within 20 miles of them, and a "sexier" in-state brother.
Starkville, MS has a population of 23,888, with another university within 20 miles of it.
Their most successful coach was Mike Price, who went 83-78. Dennis Erickson coached there before going to Miami and winning national championship.
Our most successful coach was Jackie Sherrill (who coached WSU, ironically), who went 75-75. Darrell Royal coached MSU before going to Texas and winning national championship.
Like us, their football success has come in 2-3 year spurts, but they have four Pac 8/10/12 titles - last coming in 2002. All-time record is .488.
MSU has one SEC title and one Divisional title. All-time record is .485
Their biggest win was an upset of the nation's #1 team, UCLA in 1988, where they went to the Aloha Bowl and beat SWC power Houston.
MSU's biggest win was an upset of the nation's #1 team, Alabama in 1980, and they went to the Hall of Fame Bowl and beat Big 8 power Kansas.
They have 10 bowl games (six since 1992), have won most of their minor bowl games (6-4 overall), but are 1-3 in Rose Bowls.
MSU has 17 bowl games (10 since 1991), and we are 10-7 in bowl game history, 1-1 in Orange Bowls.
And Washington State currently has a top 10 national coach, and we could probably hire him.Quote:
Originally Posted by curmudgeon
For that matter, so is Oregon State. The State of Washington does, however, have almost 7 million residents. Oregon has 4, but Corvallis is 54K. Either way, both are similar. The trouble for both of them is basically having to go to California to recruit to their locales.
If you are meaning similar in terms of winning / losing, there are three FL teams that come to mind. FSU, UF, and Miami. I am so old I can recall looking forward to playing Florida. What changed? All three schools got serious about winning, brought in money, then Ad's and coaches, and the rest as they say is history.
Census.gov, interpret it any way you want.
Miami is in no way, shape or form comparable to MSU. Most coaches take the Miami job because it's easy to win. It's like pulling teeth to get coaches to MSU.
Those Florida schools had the ability to do that. They had the population, resources and talent to make it happen. MSU has none of that. We have more talent than some places, but it doesn't compare to Florida.
In Florida State's case, getting male students also helped ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by MidTNDawg
k state, wazzou, oregon st, baylor, and tx tech are probably the best comparisons. they have some advantages we don't, and we probably have some they don't, but every school isn't just a cookie cutter of each other, there's going to be variables.
Why isn't Clemson a good comparison? Clemsons campus was based off of MSU. Similar sized town and university enrollment.
State of SC has almost double the population of MS. And it's two hours away from one of the biggest cities in the country with produces a ton of talent.