Are College Baseball's Best Coaches are Hiding at Small Time Programs?

Is this a problem with the sport of college baseball?

Just thinking about our coaching search & how Schloss is hiding at TCU with a fan base that doesn't care

McDonnell is hiding at Louisville with a fan baseball that doesn't care.

O'Connor is hiding at UVA with fan base that kind of cares.

Corbin is hiding at a place that doesn't care & behind scholarship advantages.

O'Sullivan - Is not hiding, but Florida could care less about college baseball.

Casey - Hiding in Corvallis with a fan base that could care less.

I completely understand individually why each of these coaches would stay where they are. I get the life style, no pressure, & can win where they are argument, but let's face it, it's terrible for the sport.

How can college baseball grow when the best & brightest are hiding behind no pressure jobs with scholarship advantages?

The coaching situation in college baseball is something we would never see in college football or college basketball, where commitment = wins. In college baseball commitment does not = wins & that is why the best coaches can hide behind small fan bases that don't demand anything.

Just a thought & topic for debate. Just curious how this sport can grow when the majority of the best programs don't care & their unreal coaches are hiding behind that?

Actually most of those places you say could care less have above average attendance for college baseball. Not caring about college baseball is the norm. Outside of 8 or so SEC schools and maybe 3-4 others nobody cares. It's just another non-revenue sport that football has to pay for. Heck, I don't think ours breaks even most years.

Those fan bases may not care but all but Louisville has Won National Championship and Louisville is probably very close.

And TCU!

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Originally Posted by DanDority

Those fan bases may not care but all but Louisville has Won National Championship and Louisville is probably very close.

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I agree, but is't this kind of like Northwestern, Oregon State, Boston College, & Texas Tech dominating college football?

I just believe it's bad for the sport when commitment does not equal wins.

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Originally Posted by ShotgunDawg

I agree, but is't this kind of like Northwestern, Oregon State, Boston College, & Texas Tech dominating college football?

I just believe it's bad for the sport when commitment does not equal wins.

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So Mullen did the correct thing and we should applaud him looking for better schools every year and not hiding at State (less pressure, country lifestyle, just have some success and get us to bowl games is enough for us). We should make sure we don’t commit too much to football because it would be bad for the sport if we win too much or push toward a national championship. That’s your thought process?

For the most part commitment does seem to equal wins IMO.

We are pretty committed and we are in the CWS.

Just because a fan base isn't as rabid about baseball as ours doesn't mean the school isn't committed to winning.

Oregon State has a pretty strong following in baseball as well and their fans looked pretty passionate during the SR.

I don't think you can compare football and baseball though. They are two totally different ball games.

Also I wouldn't say those coaches are hiding. All of those teams have one thing in common and that is winning. What would the coaches be hiding from? All of the coaches named will have a job at that university for as long as they want it because they win and have basically built each program into a title contender from the ground up.

I think the better question we should be asking is what were those schools looking at when they made a mid major hire and why those coaches are having the success they are and then try to find our coach that can do that.

These coaches aren't 'hiding'. Baseball coaches are just extremely loyal. Once they get a job at which they can win big on a national scale, they tend to stay put. We're dealing with the negative consequences of that from our perspective right now. But when you have places that don't put as many resources into the sport who do very well, and then you add to that the schools who do put resources in, you actually end up with a very good, balanced product, which is where college baseball is right now.

It is very good for the sport...maybe just not great for us right now.

Pretty good points Shotgun, one thing is for sure, where those Coaches are at is a much better place to win compared to the brutal Sec West. Yes they may be good coaches but can they be as successful Coaching in the West, hmmmmm….good question and we will never know. Corbin at least Coaches in the Sec.

I still fail to see how we can't leverage our far superior fan support into a significantly larger contract for some of those guys. I mean, I get staying put if it's only a $100-200K raise or something, but no reason we shouldn't be able to fund an extra $500K or more over what those program can offer funded entirely from our ticket sales dwarfing their's. Loyalty matters only up until a certain dollar point.

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Originally Posted by DanDority

Those fan bases may not care but all but Louisville has Won National Championship and Louisville is probably very close.

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I didn’t realize Schlossnagle had won a title at TCU....

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Originally Posted by DanDority

Those fan bases may not care but all but Louisville has Won National Championship and Louisville is probably very close.

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Yep, Dan is pretty close except he’s not. His CWS record is 2-8 and some might say one reason his teams could under perform in Omaha is because his teams don’t see those type of crowds all year...

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Originally Posted by Really Clark?

So Mullen did the correct thing and we should applaud him looking for better schools every year and not hiding at State (less pressure, country lifestyle, just have some success and get us to bowl games is enough for us). We should make sure we don?t commit too much to football because it would be bad for the sport if we win too much or push toward a national championship. That?s your thought process?

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Most people would say Mullen went to Florida/shopped around TO win titles - not even the same thing.

I posted the same thought in the Vandy stadium discussion and I have to agree with Shotgun mostly. What coach wants to be at their top of their game unnoticed? It would seem to me that if you followed the analog of college football - every successful baseball coach would aspire to the LSU job and that simply isn't how things work.

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Originally Posted by basedog

Pretty good points Shotgun, one thing is for sure, where those Coaches are at is a much better place to win compared to the brutal Sec West. Yes they may be good coaches but can they be as successful Coaching in the West, hmmmmm….good question and we will never know. Corbin at least Coaches in the Sec.

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This isn’t football where one loss in the “brutal SEC West” would derail your season. There’s nothing stopping multiple SEC teams from hosting/national seed as we see year in and year out.

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Originally Posted by Really Clark?

So Mullen did the correct thing and we should applaud him looking for better schools every year and not hiding at State (less pressure, country lifestyle, just have some success and get us to bowl games is enough for us). We should make sure we don’t commit too much to football because it would be bad for the sport if we win too much or push toward a national championship. That’s your thought process?

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This. Any argument made that we somehow deserve more in baseball because of our support and resource commitment can be made against us in football.

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Originally Posted by smootness

This. Any argument made that we somehow deserve more in baseball because of our support and resource commitment can be made against us in football.

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The problem with the Mullen comparison is no realistic person holds moving to Florida against him, it was chasing jobs at Minnesota and Maryland and even Miami (given lack of resources, facilities, and support). I fully get that when programs like Florida or bama or LSU or Texas or usc come calling, there's not a lot we can do except cross our fingers. However in baseball we are the bama, the LSU, the Texas, the usc, etc. from a support and facilities point of view.

To put things in perspective for Louisville: they support their baseball team the least of all of their sports. They even average 3x more fans at their women’s basketball games: 2200 baseball fan attendance (in a 4K seat stadium that cost them $8 million) to 9000 people at their women’s basketball games. To me, Dan’s a fool to stay there.

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Originally Posted by dawgs

The problem with the Mullen comparison is no realistic person holds moving to Florida against him, it was chasing jobs at Minnesota and Maryland and even Miami (given lack of resources, facilities, and support). I fully get that when programs like Florida or bama or LSU or Texas or usc come calling, there's not a lot we can do except cross our fingers. However in baseball we are the bama, the LSU, the Texas, the usc, etc. from a support and facilities point of view.

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I have seen a ton of people hold that against him. Tons of our fans have destroyed him since he left...simply because he left.

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Originally Posted by smootness

I have seen a ton of people hold that against him. Tons of our fans have destroyed him since he left...simply because he left.

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I said rational. But for most everyone, if you change MSU to another comparable program, they'd agree the coach should've taken the Florida job 100% of the time.

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Originally Posted by dawgs

I said rational. But for most everyone, if you change MSU to another comparable program, they'd agree the coach should've taken the Florida job 100% of the time.

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I would mostly agree with that - maybe not should, but at least that it is understandable.

But the bottom line is this - how does a program ever elevate itself if coaches always leave for the 'better' option when it is available? The loyalty of baseball coaches compared to their peers in football in basketball is good for the sport, not bad for it.

We are at an advantage in that we don't have to get as good a coach as some other programs do, and our success is more sustainable from coach to coach. But any program with a truly elite coach will outperform a program with a middling or even just good coach, no matter the other advantages. And that's ok. Because the longer Schlossnagle stays at TCU and McDonnell stays at Louisville, the more those programs become 'blue-bloods'. The more good programs, the better.

It's not fun or interesting if you just get all the best things and have the best success just because of your resources/support. It is fun and interesting to have to fight for what you get. Despite our resources and support, we have to fight for what we get. And that makes it all the sweeter when we get it.

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Originally Posted by smootness

I would mostly agree with that - maybe not should, but at least that it is understandable.

But the bottom line is this - how does a program ever elevate itself if coaches always leave for the 'better' option when it is available? The loyalty of baseball coaches compared to their peers in football in basketball is good for the sport, not bad for it.

We are at an advantage in that we don't have to get as good a coach as some other programs do, and our success is more sustainable from coach to coach. But any program with a truly elite coach will outperform a program with a middling or even just good coach, no matter the other advantages. And that's ok. Because the longer Schlossnagle stays at TCU and McDonnell stays at Louisville, the more those programs become 'blue-bloods'. The more good programs, the better.

It's not fun or interesting if you just get all the best things and have the best success just because of your resources/support. It is fun and interesting to have to fight for what you get. Despite our resources and support, we have to fight for what we get. And that makes it all the sweeter when we get it.

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We can fight for rings after we finally win one. Until then, make it as easy as possible. We've been fighting longer than I've been alive and it's ultimately only resulted in heartbreak in all the major sports (or when it gets real bad straight up apathy).

As for how do programs built if guys keep leaving, usually you need several coaches in a row to achieve gradually better success to really set the program up in great shape. Or you need a coach that's an alum or lifelong fan of the university who will turn down better situations and more lucrative offers. Our program has achieved everything except win natties and we've done it over the course of 40 years now across multiple coaches. We have the best facilities and the best fan support, there is nothing left to build except a trophy case, and whichever coach starts winning us natties is going to be lionized by our fan base like he's coach k or Nick Saban. No other baseball program will treat their HC the way we will treat the guy that gets us over the hump.

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Originally Posted by smootness

I would mostly agree with that - maybe not should, but at least that it is understandable.

But the bottom line is this - how does a program ever elevate itself if coaches always leave for the 'better' option when it is available? The loyalty of baseball coaches compared to their peers in football in basketball is good for the sport, not bad for it.

We are at an advantage in that we don't have to get as good a coach as some other programs do, and our success is more sustainable from coach to coach. But any program with a truly elite coach will outperform a program with a middling or even just good coach, no matter the other advantages. And that's ok. Because the longer Schlossnagle stays at TCU and McDonnell stays at Louisville, the more those programs become 'blue-bloods'. The more good programs, the better.

It's not fun or interesting if you just get all the best things and have the best success just because of your resources/support. It is fun and interesting to have to fight for what you get. Despite our resources and support, we have to fight for what we get. And that makes it all the sweeter when we get it.

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Outstanding post and I think you may be correct.

As to your point of asking how a program can elevate itself if their coach is always moving on, here is something that scares the jabeezus out of me.

What if Orgeron goes 6-6, Moorhead destroys him in Baton Rouge, and LSU comes after Moorhead?

I realize that entire scenario is unlikely, but I'm curious how Commisioner Sankey would handle that? I get letting Mullen go to Florida after being at MSU for 9 years, but a school losing a coach to an inter- conference school two years in a row just wouldn't be right. It's something to contemplate and feeds right into the original question you posed.

Sorry Gun, but I don't consider anybody that you mentioned being "small time". Small time is Tenn Tech or some other back-water. If said back-water school has suddenly started winning and that winning coincides with a coaching change, then said coach may be the next great coach in waiting. that would only apply if winning was over two or three years.

Back-water is defined as mid-major or lower.

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Originally Posted by Liverpooldawg

Actually most of those places you say could care less have above average attendance for college baseball. Not caring about college baseball is the norm. Outside of 8 or so SEC schools and maybe 3-4 others nobody cares. It's just another non-revenue sport that football has to pay for. Heck, I don't think ours breaks even most years.

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It's not going to either after the stadium rehab. $55M is a lot of money to make up. Not complaining, that's just the way it is.

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Originally Posted by DawgPoundtheRock

Sorry Gun, but I don't consider anybody that you mentioned being "small time". Small time is Tenn Tech or some other back-water. If said back-water school has suddenly started winning and that winning coincides with a coaching change, then said coach may be the next great coach in waiting. that would only apply if winning was over two or three years.

Back-water is defined as mid-major or lower.

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e.g., Ole Miss?

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Originally Posted by dawgs

I still fail to see how we can't leverage our far superior fan support into a significantly larger contract for some of those guys. I mean, I get staying put if it's only a $100-200K raise or something, but no reason we shouldn't be able to fund an extra $500K or more over what those program can offer funded entirely from our ticket sales dwarfing their's. Loyalty matters only up until a certain dollar point.

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Especially because it's Starkville. Some of those places would actually be a small, but not insignificant, raise in purchasing power just because if the difference in cost if living. Moving from some places to Starkville for an extra $500K is really like getting an extra million.

One million a year with no pressure is better then 1.5 million a year with pressure.

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Originally Posted by dawgs

We can fight for rings after we finally win one. Until then, make it as easy as possible. We've been fighting longer than I've been alive and it's ultimately only resulted in heartbreak in all the major sports (or when it gets real bad straight up apathy).

As for how do programs built if guys keep leaving, usually you need several coaches in a row to achieve gradually better success to really set the program up in great shape. Or you need a coach that's an alum or lifelong fan of the university who will turn down better situations and more lucrative offers. Our program has achieved everything except win natties and we've done it over the course of 40 years now across multiple coaches. We have the best facilities and the best fan support, there is nothing left to build except a trophy case, and whichever coach starts winning us natties is going to be lionized by our fan base like he's coach k or Nick Saban. No other baseball program will treat their HC the way we will treat the guy that gets us over the hump.

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I don't disagree with any of that. But I'm telling you, the heartbreak is going to make the victory that much sweeter. It's the exact reason the coach that finally wins one will be so lionized.

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Originally Posted by smootness

I don't disagree with any of that. But I'm telling you, the heartbreak is going to make the victory that much sweeter. It's the exact reason the coach that finally wins one will be so lionized.

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We've been through enough heartbreak. A lifetime worth it for literally every fan of MSU.

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Originally Posted by Jack Lambert

One million a year with no pressure is better then 1.5 million a year with pressure.

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$1M with no fan support is worse than $1.5M with fan support. Also, much more room for sustained success and income growth at a university committed to baseball.

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Originally Posted by dawgs

$1M with no fan support is worse than $1.5M with fan support. Also, much more room for sustained success and income growth at a university committed to baseball.

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I think like you but there are some people happy taking less.

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Originally Posted by Jack Lambert

I think like you but there are some people happy taking less.

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Just have a hard time believing everyone is willing to take less and have less resources to achieve sustained success and win trophies. At Louisville or Texas tech or tcu, they may have a good run, but the program ain't selling itself, 1 or 2 bad classes leading to a couple bad seasons and everything falls apart quickly without an easy path back to relevancy.

For us, you will always have the fanbase, support, and the facilities to raise the floor. It takes some serious polk PT. 2 mailing it in to sink below our expected floor. Tbh I think the floor of our program should be about what we've been the last 3 seasons. Even in our "down" years, we should be a 2 seed in a regional (LSU and vandy were similarly "down" and basically had the same type season we did). Some of those years you are hot at the right time and some years you are 2 and out, but that should be our floor all things considered. Our ceiling is obvsiouly a National seed, 40+ Ws, and realistic natty contender regularly.

watching-the Barners play the Gators--the talking heads said the place is packed--must be 6000 fans here. Really?

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Originally Posted by dawgs

We've been through enough heartbreak. A lifetime worth it for literally every fan of MSU.

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I'm not saying we haven't. But I'd rather be a fan of State baseball than Bama football, I'll just put it that way.

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Originally Posted by smootness

I'm not saying we haven't. But I'd rather be a fan of State baseball than Bama football, I'll just put it that way.

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I mean, bammers are a jaded bunch at this point, but if you would prefer to win 1 natty after years of failure instead of winning multiple natties and consistently being in the CWS even when you don't win (playoffs for bama football), then you are lying to yourself, ha. The first one is always gonna be the sweetest, but act like you would prefer repeated failure and continual chasing a ring to being the dominant program over a long period of time with a handful of natties is ludicrous.

Edit: because of bama's ridiculous recruiting, their fanbase does have more of a sense of relief when they win instead of a feeling of unbridled joy. But I feel like when Saban retires, if they spend a decade or more wandering thru the wilderness (like between stallings and Saban), they'll quickly recapture that level of joy they next time they are contenders.

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Originally Posted by dawgs

I mean, bammers are a jaded bunch at this point, but if you would prefer to win 1 natty after years of failure instead of winning multiple natties and consistently being in the CWS even when you don't win (playoffs for bama football), then you are lying to yourself, ha. The first one is always gonna be the sweetest, but act like you would prefer repeated failure and continual chasing a ring to being the dominant program over a long period of time with a handful of natties is ludicrous.

Edit: because of bama's ridiculous recruiting, their fanbase does have more of a sense of relief when they win instead of a feeling of unbridled joy. But I feel like when Saban retires, if they spend a decade or more wandering thru the wilderness (like between stallings and Saban), they'll quickly recapture that level of joy they next time they are contenders.

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But there's a still a sense there that joy comes after pain. I'm just glad I'm a State fan, that's all I'm saying.

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Originally Posted by Liverpooldawg

Actually most of those places you say could care less have above average attendance for college baseball. Not caring about college baseball is the norm. Outside of 8 or so SEC schools and maybe 3-4 others nobody cares. It's just another non-revenue sport that football has to pay for. Heck, I don't think ours breaks even most years.

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In your next life you're going to be a Duke fan and post how much you hate basketball all the time.