sounds to me like Dan has no interest in giving any type of shit about our field goal kicker situation. Take a listen to him talk about them here (starts 4:10 mark)
https://twitter.com/HailStateFB/stat...63915117219840
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sounds to me like Dan has no interest in giving any type of shit about our field goal kicker situation. Take a listen to him talk about them here (starts 4:10 mark)
https://twitter.com/HailStateFB/stat...63915117219840
I didn't get that at all from his comments. He spent a couple of minutes talking about the kickers:
1) Not many field goals were attempted today, just extra points.
2) There's not a clear cut #1 at this point.
3) They won't decide on the final kicker until game week, probably late.
4) He doesn't consider the kicker to be as important from a leadership perspective as the QB or a LB.
5) They've both been doing pretty good in his eyes, and the team is more confident now in our kicking situation than they were in the spring.
If Tucker Day is supposed to be our punter next year, I would rather us if at all possible redshirt him and then go with Lawless or Mills. Of course if Lawless and Mills are both terrible we may not have a choice.
39 that. If Day is the best FG kicker we have, put his ass out there. A good kicker is the difference in at least 1-2 Ws per year, sometimes more. We can find another punter. We haven't had a FG worth a damn in going on close to a decade or more.Quote:
Originally Posted by Todd4State
Talk about glass full. It took him 10 seconds before he could even remember if they attempted a single field goal. Which they didn't. Maybe just maybe you should attempt a couple ****ing field goals when you still have no clue who the kicker is going to be. His lack of give a **** is disturbing when it comes to kickers.Quote:
Originally Posted by QuadrupleOption
You're looking too deep into this 1. He talked in depth about the kicking battle. They also attempted a couple field goals tonight. The team is a lot more confident in Day & Lawless than any kickers since game 1 of last year.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dawg61
Yeah, we can not afford to have a poor kicking game this year.Quote:
Originally Posted by War Machine Dawg
Best man plays
I must admit, when I watched that interview, I left most concerned with his comments on the kickers. He definitely acted like it was somewhat of an afterthought. He said he didn't really care if a guy separated himself early. Why not? Why would you not rather have a clear "guy" at kicker if you could? And I agree, his lack of knowing if they even kicked FG's tonight was concerning. He mentioned he didn't know if they would freak out first game since they're all young....so why in the hell wouldn't you be letting them get a lot of kicks in during scrimmages in the stadium so you can start to find out? He even said he may not know who the guy is until after pregame of game 1....so he clearly learned nothing from the USA game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dawg61
I'm not freaking out about it, I just think as shitty as our kickers have been the last several years, he could at least pretend to make it a heavy focal point. But at the end of the day, I just want him to run the best guy out there, and I hope whoever it is makes the kicks
I probably am but we haven't had an above average SEC kicker since Mullen arrived. It's fine if he wants nothing to do with it as long as he hires someone who does. Imagine if we had kickers like we have QBs. A great kicker is a weapon that shouldn't get overlooked every year.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ifyouonlyknew
It could also mean that Dan isn't meddling with special teams. And if that's the case, I won't complain. I do think that with Boniol the kicking game will eventually improve- Army AA punter in the last class and an Under Armour AA at kicker in our current class. The problem is we may not see the fruits of that this year. Much like WR recruiting.Quote:
Originally Posted by CadaverDawg
I absolutely agree. I do think Chris Boniol is very good as a coach though- he has been a kicking coach in the NFL and was a successful kicker himself in the NFL.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dawg61
Well, Mullen just negates the threat of our opponents making field goals. We'll just block 'em all....see, no need for us to worry so much.
Sobesik was 3rd in the league in 2014 and Graves was 2nd in 2015Quote:
Originally Posted by Dawg61
Graves missed a 28 yard field goal vs South Alabama at the very end of the game in 2016Quote:
Originally Posted by Really Clark?
And we find out 3/4 thru the season that he has a back injury that I think required surgery after the season. He didn't come back and hung em up when he could've played another year if I'm not mistaken. He did miss a fg that would've won the USA game but having to make a game winning fg vs them was not nearly the only reason we lost that game. Aeries and Fitz play that entire game instead of the Mullen playing the older guys bullshit he does to start the year has more to do with that loss than a fg in my opinion
We have a walk on from SHS. Cannot remember his name.
How does that change how good he was in 2015? He was 2nd in the league in 2015 and injured in 2016Quote:
Originally Posted by Dawg61
DePasquale was solid for most of his career as well. We haven't had an All-Conference deadeye type in a very long time (not exactly common for anyone... remember Bama's kicking situation a few years ago?), but let's not pretend like our place kicking situation has been a steaming pile of shit going on decades. It's simply a hard position to evaluate for anyone, especially since you can usually only afford to allot, absolute best case, a few scholarships to it. Has Mullen not put enough emphasis on it in the past? Very possibly. Hopefully he's coming around on that since he's now shelling out a scholarship for it, but again, let's not pretend like the position has been a complete void throughout his tenure.Quote:
Originally Posted by Really Clark?
09 - Depasquale 10/12 Long 48
10 - Depasquale 10/12 Long 43
11 - Depasquale 12/18 Long 42
12 - Bell 14/21 Long 47
13 - Bell 6/14 Long 40
14 - Sobiesk 12/14 Long 45
15 - Graves 15/18 Long 44
16 - Graves 11/19 Long 48
Like the previous poster said we may not have had the All SEC kicker but to say our kickers have always sucked is another myth. We've been bad 2 yrs 2013 & 2016. The problem is we don't have that last second FG to remember like Westerfield or Hazelwood to forget all the other misses they had. Kicking can be better but we haven't consistently trotted out guys that's missing FG's left & right either.
http://hailstate.com/coaches.aspx?rc=798&path=football
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dawg61
It is amazing what making or missing a clutch game winning kick does for people's memories about the efficiency of a kicker. I think the biggest argument you could make is that our kickers have not had the range to attempt long field goals and that has hampered our decision making, but let's look at career FG%:Quote:
Originally Posted by thf24
Brian Hazelwood made 58.9% of his FG at State - but is revered for '97 & '98 game winners.
Scott Westerfield hit 71.4%
Westin Graves hit 68.4%
Devin Bell hit 63.6%
Derek D hit 76.2%
Sobiesk hit 75% - His leaving after '14 with 2 years of eligibility really hurt.
So all of Mullen's kickers were statistically better than Hazelwood and half were better than Westerfield (probably recognized as our best ever).
The big issue was not having someone who could back up Graves so he kicked all year injured.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ifyouonlyknew
Man - we were both working the stats at the same time!Quote:
Originally Posted by BrunswickDawg
How dare you bring ACTUAL FACTS to dispute a message board narrative!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Really Clark?
To the point about range- that is a big deal because if we have to get to the 20 yard line to get in field goal range as opposed to the 30-35 it still makes it difficult to score as many points because our offense has to get deeper into the opponent's territory and run more plays potentially with time running down.Quote:
Originally Posted by BrunswickDawg
And that lack of range partly explains why Dan's kickers don't have apt of memorable game winners. A couple of times they missed field goals that were at the edge of their range like Sobiesk in 2013 Egg Bowl and Bell against LSU in 2015.
I don't disagree - I just didn't expound on that comment. But, even if they had the range, I don't know that long-game winners would be something Dan would attempt with regularity anyway - and we seem to have rarely been in that situation under Dan. Whereas under Jackie, it seemed like 3/4th of our wins came on miracle field goals -which is definitely an exaggeration - but it sure felt like we were always under the gun with a long FG needing to be made.Quote:
Originally Posted by Todd4State
Look, y'all can bring up those stats if you want, and I get it, the stats were good for a few. But how many times were we forced to abort a potential big FG bc we had no confidence our kicker could make it or even get it to the end zone due to no leg strength? Yall didn't expand on Devon Bell's % when he was brought in to kick anything deeper than 40 yards that one year, and he couldn't even keep it in the stadium. We had to bring in an inconsistent power leg, bc our main K couldn't kick a 40+ yarder...let that sink in. In the SEC.
Stats can be misleading. We've had some decent kickers that can make a decent percentage OF THE KICKS THEYRE ALLOWED TO TRY....but it has been quite a while since we trotted a guy out there that we felt super confident he was going to make everything under 40 yards. And in this league, and the teams we're needing every advantage against to pull an upset....we need to be pretty automatic inside 40, and have a guy with the leg strength to at least attempt a 50+ yarder with a chance to get the ball to the goal post.
I know that isn't sunshiny enough for some....If y'all want to use stats to hide the fact that y'all closed your eyes every time a kicker came out in a big spot the last several years, that's your choice.
And again, when year 7-8 features a K that can't make an extra point....does it actually matter what years 1-6 featured? It's an issue either way. Not sure why we need to sugar coat it. The best coaches in the country demand excellence & fix key issues....Mullen should have this issue fixed by now, and the fact that he doesn't seem more focused, serious, or concerned about it should be concerning to us as fans imo. You think Saban would have that response to a kicker question if his guy had missed a chip shot to lose to USA last year? Mullen is a good coach, and I just want to see him demand excellence so we can take that next step....our kicking game could be the difference in 7 & 9 wins this year....or hell even 8 & 10 or 9 & 11. Yall may be cool with that, but it pisses me off bc it's one guy so it should be relatively an easy fix. Trade our K out with any other SEC kicker last year, and we likely win 8 games....that's a problem.
Nobody is trying to use stats to hide behind anything. Even Brunswick acknowledge that those kickers didn't have the biggest legs. On the flipside we could say the same thing about you guys letting those few big kicks that the dawgs of yester year made block out those short kicks they missed. Maybe if they make that 38yd late in the 3rd qtr then he doesn't have to attempt that long game winner. Again no one has said our kicking has been lights out or even great but to act like it has flat out sucked is wrong too. All we ever hear is if we can get a consistent kicker inside 40-45yds I'd be happy. Well those stats that you're dismissing is saying for most of the time Mullen has been here that's exactly what we've had. Yea of course I want an accurate kicker who can also hit that kick from 55 but shit the majority of college football wants that.Quote:
Originally Posted by CadaverDawg
Damn it, people. Now you've piqued my curiosity about FG stats, of all things.
Comparing Mullen's kickers' percentages to kickers of yesteryear is interesting stuff. (And I was especially interested to see that Hazelwood's numbers were so low.) But those raw stats don't give me any controls to compare them to.
So I looked at SEC-game-only FG% stats for all SEC teams during Mullen's tenure and lined them up to see where we landed. What I found was that, on average, SEC teams' FG kicking is all over the map.
Since 2009, every SEC team has finished in the Top 3 of the league in FG% as least once. In the same span, every SEC team but one (Auburn) has finished 10th or worse at least once. And 9 of the 14 teams in the SEC have finished 10th or worse multiple times in that span. (Most years -- with 2009 and 2011 being the only real exceptions -- the FG% of teams ranked 10th or worse started dropping below 70%.)
Really, there have been only five or six consistently average-or-better FG-kicking SEC teams since 2009: Auburn, U. Miss, LSU, UGA, Kentucky, and Missouri. Auburn and U. Miss. are the only teams whose average rank in the conference is 5th or higher in those years. (4.6 for Auburn, 4.8 for U. Miss.) LSU and UGA both average 6th or higher. And Kentucky's and Missouri's average rank was 7th or higher. For every other SEC team -- more than half the conference, in other words -- their average ranks were between 7.5 and 8.5 in the SEC.
So even though almost every team team in the league has had at least one stellar year of FG kicking to go along with at least one year of awful FG kicking, no SEC team has averaged a Top 3 finish in the league since 2009, and no SEC team has averaged 9th or lower either.
So in context, Mullen's kickers have been par for the course in the SEC, meaning that they've been up and down. Taking the jump from there to the consistency that Auburn, LSU, U.Miss, and UGA have shown is obviously the goal. (Note, though, that LSU's been struggling of late. Finishes of 10th and 12th in 2014 and 2015, and 8th in 2016.) But it looks like Mullen's not alone in being unable to figure out how to make that leap.
None of this addresses distance, of course. Those stats are available, but I'm gonna pass on crunching them and figuring out how to integrate them with the rest of this jibber jabber.
Here are MSU's SEC-game-only FG% ranks among SEC teams for each year of Mullen's tenure, if your interested:
2009 - 3rd
2010 - 7th
2011 - 7th
2012 - 11th
2013 - 14th
2014 - 7th
2015 - 6th
2016 - 13th
Good stuff Prediction Pain.
I went to a High School that has produced some well known kickers historically - guys who never missed in high school, had the leg for 45+, got full rides to D1 schools, and played for and won national titles. I would put any of them in a game winning situation without question. All are fairly well thought of in their college careers. When I went and pulled their %, I was shocked:
Rex Robinson (UGA, 1977-1980) 66.7%
Scott Sisson (GT, 1989-1992) 68.2%
Tim Montz (OM, 93'-'96) 64.8%
Hap Hines (UGA, '96-'99) 70%
Your memory really can play tricks on you sometimes about kicking games. If those guys missed the chip, but hit the game winner, they live in infamy!
Excellent post Pain. My point is right above. We were 2nd to last in FG kicking last year and it takes Mullen ten seconds to even remember if we attempted a FG during a scrimmage. Then he remembers that we didn't even attempt one yet still no alarm goes off in his head that maybe he should make that more of a priority. He gives absolutely zero shits about it to the point he says he's not even gonna know who is kicking in the 1st game till 30 minutes before. That is unacceptable when the season before we were 13th in the league in kicking and we absolutely lost 2-3 games because of it. I was wrong to say we have had shitty kickers the entire time Mullen has been here. I am not wrong to say Mullen gives no ****s about it and displays no want to in terms of fixing it. I am a big Mullen supporter but his aloofness towards kicking I can't get down with. Special teams are HUGE and I won't sit quietly with a HC that gives no ****s about it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Prediction? Pain.
Please don't let facts get in the way of a good argument.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ifyouonlyknew
NFL History - Points Leaders
Points Leaders
RK PLAYER PTS
1 Morten Andersen 2,544
2 Gary Anderson 2,434
3 ADAM VINATIERI 2,378
Why kickers??????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????It is who scores points............................................
That's because neither attempted anything over about 32 yards because their legs were too weak.Quote:
Originally Posted by Really Clark?
You can't evaluate kickers by percentage of makes in the same way you can't evaluate a short stop on errors when both are in large part determined by range. Guys with larger ranges will also likely have more errors.
I imagine that placekicking like most things in football has improved a lot as far as technique goes since the 1990's. For example there are some guys in the Pro Football HOF like Joe Namath that have more INT's than TD passes in their career. If Namath did that today, he would be on the bench.Quote:
Originally Posted by BrunswickDawg
People can say- "Oh wow our FG percentage was just as good as Westerfield back in the day or whatever". But the reality is there are a few kickers like Gary Wunderlich of Ole Miss who are kicking FG's at a clip of 95.7% last year. What was good in 1999 may be 13th in the SEC today.
The other thing about FG% is it is a naturally small sample size so one miss can have a big impact on the data. I would imagine that FG% alone is not the best indicator of kicking talent. Someone probably needs to come up with a formula which measures FG%, distance/range and then maybe some kind of score for "clutch FG's made". A FG made in the fourth quarter to win the Egg Bowl is much more impactful and pressure packed than a field goal during the second quarter of Alcorn State when we're up 21-0. People can say- "Oh, that's just your memory", but I do think there is something to be said for making game winning field goals and I don't think it should be belittled because one guy made them and another didn't and they had similar FG%'s.
Graves was 3-5 from 40+ in 2015 but if they are attempting an average amount and not just a few to skew the stats, then percentage made is absolutely a good stat. How are you disqualifying short FG by putting more emphasis on range? Who was it? Westerfield in 2000 who missed like half of 30-39 traders? But that doesn't count as much because they are shorter?Quote:
Originally Posted by ShotgunDawg
http://www.foxsports.com/college-foo...d-player-statsQuote:
Originally Posted by Really Clark?
No idea how accurate this is, but this says that he was 7/11 from 30-39 in 2000. Westerfield only attempted 1/1 from 40-49 this season which kind of shows my point about sample size.
Interestingly enough he attempted very few from short range (29 and in) this season.
http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/feist2009Quote:
Originally Posted by Todd4State
Look at the "Field Goal Efficiency" stat. Going by that metric, we were great in 2009 and 2015, awful in 2013 and 2016, and slightly on the poor side of mediocre in Mullen's four other years. That actually corresponds pretty well with the raw stats from SEC play that I found earlier. (Didn't compare our national advanced-stat ranks with those of our SEC brethren, though, so I don't know if the teams are all as clustered together there, too.)
In the scrimmage, the kickers were 6/7 from beyond 50 yards. I will take that! Hopefully that translates to 90%+ 40 yards and in.
Good stuff! Thank you for that! I figured that someone came up with something with all of the factors I mentioned.Quote:
Originally Posted by Prediction? Pain.