Todd4State's thoughts- Make MSU Baseball Great Again

I'm going to do something a little bit different because I think everyone knows how I feel and I don't want to regurgitate that again. We have problems and I can rationalize why they are happening or at least give me opinion on that. That just means that what is happening is explainable. That, however doesn't mean it's acceptable. The bottom line is that what is going on with MSU baseball is unacceptable- and we know what the problems are. Everyone associated with MSU baseball should be pissed off right now.

Sure, we don't have lottery scholarships. That just means we don't have everything. We have a lot of things that most programs would kill for- things that even some of the lottery schools don't have. I could vent I suppose- but there's been enough of that on here. I want to talk about how to fix it. I want to talk about having a losing season maybe every 20 years instead of every other year. You can put down our program and say "it's not 1985 anymore"- but the fact is we deserve and should have better. We have shown that we can be a consistent winner throughout the years and have done some pretty good things even recently.

So how do we fix it?

I'm going to steal a line from Hugh Freeze- we got to recruit better players. I won't say that to the team's face like Freeze did though. Like Kenny Powers once said to his Mexican League team- "Right now- you suck; but don't get all defensive on me, I suck right now too." That's probably how my speech to our team would go too if I said it to their face.

Anyway- we have to change how we recruit hitters. Cohen did a good job of getting elite hitters to commit to us. He did a horrible job of getting them past the draft. Even worse was how he tried to make up for their loss. The only way to overcome that is to evaluate player's signability better. There are more and more really good players that want to go to college first. As I've said- we're not always going to get everyone we sign past the draft. Cann was not able to get everyone at LSU. That's the nature of the business- but we have to have a better idea of WHO is going to go and then make an informed decision on how to replace that player. I remember the class a couple of years ago- there was an interview with Cohen about how many guys we would get into school out of that class, and he said he felt like there was a chance we would get all of them in. We didn't- we lost Fenter, Riley, and Pickett out of that group. And I would say that most players do know whether they are going to go pro or not before the draft even happens. We HAVE TO do a better job with that.

Who do we replace those players with? Well, nowadays baseball recruiting is changing. We're seeing more and more guys flip. There are also players that simply develop later and that shows up their senior year. When you are trying to evaluate high school players, you have to remember that they develop at different rates and some will be obviously good in junior high- like Bryce Harper and some it won't be until their junior or senior year in high school like Hunter Renfroe. Those are the two avenues that I think we should use the most when replacing players. And if a guy decides to go to school because he didn't like where he was drafted or whatever- so what? Now we have two really good players. Let the coaches figure out the scholarship situation.

At the end of the recruiting cycle we need to make sure that pretty much every position is filled so that when our players are juniors they won't be young. And that needs to happen for every single class going forward. We need 11-14 commitments- 2-6 pitchers, a catcher, four infielders including a first baseman, and three outfielders. I know that's over the limit of 35- we have to process out as we need to. The ultimate goal is to get a junior laden class every year.

On the JUCO's- they have value. We saw that last year with Lowe and Kruger. The problem is we over-rely on them for key positions and as we see what happens when they don't pan out. It can get pretty ugly. But the thing about it is- we really don't need to rely on the JUCO's so much. We're one of the top programs in the country in the SEC. We should be able to attract really good high school talent and don't really need to rely on the JUCO's as much as we are. I hope Cann goes away from this- some of our classes are almost 50% JUCO guys. That's not good. JUCO's are good for sidearm/submarine guys like Rigby, catch and throw guys like Lovelady- but the others we should take very selectively. I take a JUCO it needs to be someone with D-I/power 5 experience like Lowe and Kruger, or someone that was drafted out of high school and went JUCO, or see above- an arm angle guy or a catch and throw guy. And that's it. By the time the JUCO's guys figure it out, we've really only gotten one good year out of them if that.

As far as the pitching goes- first and foremost, Cann and Cohen need to take a very long look as to why we have had so many arm injuries. The solution at this point is to patiently wait on everyone to get better. But no one else in the country has as many- again it's unacceptable for the standards that are MSU baseball and even worse we're talking about players getting hurt. We need to look not only at our pitching program but also take a long look at our S&C program. If we need to make changes with the S&C aspect of our staff we by all means need to do so. IF it's true that our S&C guy wasn't on the same page as our last pitching coach and guys have gotten injured because of it- he needs to be fired. To me- and remember my career is in rehab so I have some knowledge here even though sports rehab isn't my background- that's absolutely negligent. Let's go find the very best S&C coach for baseball out there and hire him.

Also as far as pitching goes I think Cann needs to get his own pitching coach that is HIS own guy. Right now Gary Henderson is essentially a guy trying to rehab his career and get through some things. We need a pitching coach that is just as impressive as Cann is that is upbeat and can recruit and has a MLB background like Cann. Pitching is SO key in this conference. If you don't have it, you're screwed.

What can make me feel better about this season right now? Nothing really. I do hope that they let me detonate the grandstand at Dudy-Noble this May though. That would probably be a good way to get out some pent up frustration. Or maybe they'll just let all of us at EliteDawgs have a hammer. I bet we could take down the grandstand in an hour as a group. Or even better- maybe someone from the athletic dept. could read this and actually put my ideas into action.

Great commentary on signability.

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Agreed. I believe we see Henderson retire at the end of the year.

Strength and conditioning is not the problem

Give me the cliff notes.

Todd - acceptance is the first stage of admitting you have a problem.....

I'm going to play asshole in this thread. Other than attendance/atmosphere, why do people think we should be some sort of dominant baseball power? I swear, we are as bad as the guys in Oxford pining for 1960. The fact is we have a very good history, but we never have been in the same league as the top powers over the years. We have never had a decade long run of making the NCAA post season. In the past 45 years, we have not won back to back SEC titles, or back to back SEC Tourneys. In the past 45 years, we have been to the NCAA post season 30 times, but have only made it to Omaha 9 times. That is one trip to Omaha every 5 years. That is not a team with some birthright place in NCAA lore. It is a solid baseball program that can put together a solid post season with a group of seasoned vets every few years. Our baseball program is the pride of the school because it is the only program with any type of consistent winning and national profile throughout our history. So, there is no FIX for returning MSU Baseball to some sort of mythical dominance. It never existed.

If we continue to make that mythical past our goal, our baseball program will suffer the same fate as the OM football team - consistent turnover because expectations are never met, shortcuts taken to return to glory without building a solid foundation (you can argue Cohen did this last year), and a continually angry fanbase.

We really need to look at what LSU, USC, UF do, as far as recruiting. Their definition of down years are completely different than ours. Not hosting is a bad year for them, and that's what we want. We need to look at what their strategy is get players to campus, and there's much more to it than lottery funding. I don't know if over-signing and processing is the name of the game, but we have to do it. If players have options (MLB or college), then the school should too. If we are going to spend years recruiting a guy and still lose him to the draft, we can't trade all that time and resources for a JUCO project a month before classes start. Sure, we might see a story of Facebook about how MSU pulled little Jimmy's offer, but that may be the price of success. The business side of the draft filters down to the colleges, and it has to be approached that way.

I agree, though, we need to know the signability of our players. Yeah, it looks cool signing the Greg Picketts, but it was obvious that guy was never going to make it to campus.

I'm sure we nobody wants to hear this, but we need to look at what UM does (assuming they aren't networking), more than anyone. They have to play by the same scholarship rules as us, but have managed to have more consistent success than us. They have had a couple of down years in the last 5 seasons, but still manged to finish above .500.

The way things are playing out, I'm starting to feel like maybe Cohen wasn't the coldhearted intense bastard that Polk made him out to be, when it comes to over-signing/processing players. When you consistently end up with JUCO filler, then you aren't being cutthroat like the top tier teams. I'm hoping that A.C. will be a better recruiter, be more appealing to guys with MLB options, and not be afraid to take on that risk of having too many talented guys to start the fall..

The fact that we didn't win a national championship in the 80's and 90's, speaks for itself. The mass exodus we had this past off season is most concerning. We should never lose that many starters in one year.

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Originally Posted by BrunswickDawg

Todd - acceptance is the first stage of admitting you have a problem.....

I'm going to play asshole in this thread. Other than attendance/atmosphere, why do people think we should be some sort of dominant baseball power? I swear, we are as bad as the guys in Oxford pining for 1960. The fact is we have a very good history, but we never have been in the same league as the top powers over the years. We have never had a decade long run of making the NCAA post season. In the past 45 years, we have not won back to back SEC titles, or back to back SEC Tourneys. In the past 45 years, we have been to the NCAA post season 30 times, but have only made it to Omaha 9 times. That is one trip to Omaha every 5 years. That is not a team with some birthright place in NCAA lore. It is a solid baseball program that can put together a solid post season with a group of seasoned vets every few years. Our baseball program is the pride of the school because it is the only program with any type of consistent winning and national profile throughout our history. So, there is no FIX for returning MSU Baseball to some sort of mythical dominance. It never existed.

If we continue to make that mythical past our goal, our baseball program will suffer the same fate as the OM football team - consistent turnover because expectations are never met, shortcuts taken to return to glory without building a solid foundation (you can argue Cohen did this last year), and a continually angry fanbase.

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I agree with you regarding the overall stature of our program. It's not healthy for our fans to assign some arbitrary assessement that we are a Top 10 / 15 / 20 program and then start naming all the reasons why we fall short of this ill-conceived standard. I don't see why our fans can't just recognize that we aren't where we want or need to be and then talk about what needs to be done to improve our status (as well as what has already been done or is planned to be done). There is no reason to talk in terms of acceptable / unacceptable or any other such nonsense. No matter where you are, there is always room for improvement. But our fans need to exercise more patience and understand our limitations a little bit better so they can actually take the time to recognize when those improvements have occurred. I knew way back in January that this board was going to border on unreadable before April when they had the prediction thread where 90% of posters predicted we'd be a 2-seed or better in the regionals. It's like everyone just went with the way of thinking that "we're a Top 10 program, we just won the SEC, it doesn't matter about all the injuries and draft losses because we have all this talent....blah blah blah". Almost nobody recognized the plainly obvious signs of a potentially disappointing season upcoming. And when it happens, everyone is just beside themselves in meltdown mode. Why?

I also agree with Todd on what needs to be done to improve it. Whether or not we were ever a dominant baseball power, we still need to evaluate signability better. Things like our scholarship situation where we don't have the aid of a lottery program or other assistance makes signability that much more important. That kid who is 50/50 on college vs pro is way more likely to lean pro if he's going to have to pay 50% of his tuition. So we certainly have to recognize those situations a little bit better.

You guys saying "quit acting like we're a top program when we're not", are ignoring the fact that we have EVERYTHING needed in baseball to be a power. That's why we say we should and can be. The only minus is the scholly issues, but it doesn't keep us from having top ranked classes and going toe to toe with anybody for anyone we want.

So my response is, instead of telling me we cant be a top program, explain WHY we shouldn't expect to be? We pump more money, facilities, and crowd support into baseball than any school in the country...we have a history of winning SEC titles, tournaments, Regionals, Supers, every few years...and we go to Omaha once every 5 years or so. Tell me why we should say "golly shucks, we ain't never won a title or been a National Seed two years in a row, so we're stupid for thinking that's possible". I don't buy that. I buy it in football and even hoops...but not in baseball. We have too much in our favor to not be more consistently at the top of college baseball

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Originally Posted by HSVDawg

I agree with you regarding the overall stature of our program. It's not healthy for our fans to assign some arbitrary assessement that we are a Top 10 / 15 / 20 program and then start naming all the reasons why we fall short of this ill-conceived standard. I don't see why our fans can't just recognize that we aren't where we want or need to be and then talk about what needs to be done to improve our status (as well as what has already been done or is planned to be done). There is no reason to talk in terms of acceptable / unacceptable or any other such nonsense. No matter where you are, there is always room for improvement. But our fans need to exercise more patience and understand our limitations a little bit better so they can actually take the time to recognize when those improvements have occurred. I knew way back in January that this board was going to border on unreadable before April when they had the prediction thread where 90% of posters predicted we'd be a 2-seed or better in the regionals. It's like everyone just went with the way of thinking that "we're a Top 10 program, we just won the SEC, it doesn't matter about all the injuries and draft losses because we have all this talent....blah blah blah". Almost nobody recognized the plainly obvious signs of a potentially disappointing season upcoming. And when it happens, everyone is just beside themselves in meltdown mode. Why?

I also agree with Todd on what needs to be done to improve it. Whether or not we were ever a dominant baseball power, we still need to evaluate signability better. Things like our scholarship situation where we don't have the aid of a lottery program or other assistance makes signability that much more important. That kid who is 50/50 on college vs pro is way more likely to lean pro if he's going to have to pay 50% of his tuition. So we certainly have to recognize those situations a little bit better.

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I actually agree with a lot of Todd's post. And your post is actually what I really think about all of our programs (not to sound like a "Poor Ol' Misipi Tate" mentality). And Cadaver - that's why I prefaced my post with "I'm going to play the asshole".
We have to fight harder and work longer and be more innovative just to stay competitive in the toughest conference in America in football, baseball, softball, women's basketball, track, and golf. Establishing realistic goals and expectations - while not being satisfied with realistic goals and expectations - is a thin line to walk, but one we have to, in order to avoid falling off a cliff into an abyss of mediocrity and continual coaching turnover chaos.

We should make a regional every year and a CWS every 3 years or so. Hopefully win one at some point before I die. We can be that good. Our facilities are about to be the best in the US of A. So, when the same people telling me we can't compete with Bama in football because they have the best of everything and the best support are telling me we can't be great even though we're going to have that type of support and facilities, then I just laugh. Hell, even OM has been more consistent that us since Bianco got there. We've neglected the hell out of our program. Now, with Cohen at AD, that should change. It's time we stop neglecting our baseball program. It's time we make it what it should be. Make that mother ****** great again!

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Originally Posted by Cooterpoot

We should make a regional every year and a CWS every 3 years or so. Hopefully win one at some point before I die. We can be that good. Our facilities are about to be the best in the US of A. So, when the same people telling me we can't compete with Bama in football because they have the best of everything and the best support are telling me we can't be great even though we're going to have that type of support and facilities, then I just laugh. Hell, even OM has been more consistent that us since Bianco got there. We've neglected the hell out of our program. Now, with Cohen at AD, that should change. It's time we stop neglecting our baseball program. It's time we make it what it should be. Make that mother ****** great again!

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Hell yes, good post.

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Only one thing to say after a post like that....


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Originally Posted by CadaverDawg

You guys saying "quit acting like we're a top program when we're not", are ignoring the fact that we have EVERYTHING needed in baseball to be a power. That's why we say we should and can be. The only minus is the scholly issues, but it doesn't keep us from having top ranked classes and going toe to toe with anybody for anyone we want.

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We do not have everything we need. Facilities and fan support are our strengths, but are very very small parts of a very big equation. Glossing over the scholarship issue like its a small hurdle is whistling past the graveyard. Its about the biggest hurdle there is and there is no immediate solution to solve it. And that's not a "poor old MSU statement", it's a "poor old college baseball" statement because it is a drastically unlevel playing field.

And saying we still bring in top ranked classes is not accurate either. Baseball classes are ranked at signing day then never really assessed again. You lose guys to the draft, you lose guys to injury, you lose guys to the draft again after they are Jr's when they have just recently started contributing (think Zac Houston) and then you have guys that don't pan out. Way more variation and overall inaccuracy with college baseball recruiting rankings than with football and basketball. They aren't worth the paper they are printed on, and even if they were, our 2015 class was the only one we have signed recently that was even Top 10.

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Originally Posted by CadaverDawg

So my response is, instead of telling me we cant be a top program, explain WHY we shouldn't expect to be? We pump more money, facilities, and crowd support into baseball than any school in the country...we have a history of winning SEC titles, tournaments, Regionals, Supers, every few years...and we go to Omaha once every 5 years or so. Tell me why we should say "golly shucks, we ain't never won a title or been a National Seed two years in a row, so we're stupid for thinking that's possible". I don't buy that. I buy it in football and even hoops...but not in baseball. We have too much in our favor to not be more consistently at the top of college baseball

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I don't think anyone is saying we can't expect to be very good and occasionally elite in baseball. The problem is people think we should be good exclusively because of big crowds and a nice stadium atmosphere. There's way more to it than that, namely getting and retaining talented players. A kid from Georgia isn't gonna pay $50k in tuition instead of getting $500k in signing bonus money because he can smell ribs smoking when he's standing in LF. And the other problem is that college baseball as a whole isn't structured well enough for any team to become perrenielly dominant like Alabama football. There is way too much variation and roster turnover with the draft (and now, with an increasing number of pitching injuries due to travel ball, etc.) for teams to just stay at the top forever. It just isn't feasible.

But again, none of that means we can't strive to be better and identify improvement areas. And I think we are doing that.

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Originally Posted by HSVDawg

We do not have everything we need. Facilities and fan support are our strengths, but are very very small parts of a very big equation. Glossing over the scholarship issue like its a small hurdle is whistling past the graveyard. Its about the biggest hurdle there is and there is no immediate solution to solve it. And that's not a "poor old MSU statement", it's a "poor old college baseball" statement because it is a drastically unlevel playing field.

And saying we still bring in top ranked classes is not accurate either. Baseball classes are ranked at signing day then never really assessed again. You lose guys to the draft, you lose guys to injury, you lose guys to the draft again after they are Jr's when they have just recently started contributing (think Zac Houston) and then you have guys that don't pan out. Way more variation and overall inaccuracy with college baseball recruiting rankings than with football and basketball. They aren't worth the paper they are printed on, and even if they were, our 2015 class was the only one we have signed recently that was even Top 10.



I don't think anyone is saying we can't expect to be very good and occasionally elite in baseball. The problem is people think we should be good exclusively because of big crowds and a nice stadium atmosphere. There's way more to it than that, namely getting and retaining talented players. A kid from Georgia isn't gonna pay $50k in tuition instead of getting $500k in signing bonus money because he can smell ribs smoking when he's standing in LF. And the other problem is that college baseball as a whole isn't structured well enough for any team to become perrenielly dominant like Alabama football. There is way too much variation and roster turnover with the draft (and now, with an increasing number of pitching injuries due to travel ball, etc.) for teams to just stay at the top forever. It just isn't feasible.

But again, none of that means we can't strive to be better and identify improvement areas. And I think we are doing that.

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I once again counter your argument with "how is Ole Miss doing it so consistently under the same set of rules"? Plus, these days kids go to college where they want to go for the most part. Student loans are so common, and big time talent will have the funds to pay it off in 3 years anyway. I'm not saying the scholly issue isn't an issue...and I'm not saying stadium and crowd support are all that matters...I'm saying we have to get our heads out of the sand and realize that a school 100 miles from us is dealing with the same issues while consistently making, and usually hosting, a regional Year after year after year. So don't sit there and tell me it's not possible or it's too hard to do, when I witness it yearly happening with our instate rival.

You put our program in Regionals 14 of the next 16 years like OM has been doing...we'll win a National Title or multiple. And they'll do it too...at this rate before us, bc they are a model of consistency whereas we're a lightning in a bottle crapshoot yearly that is dependent on Jucos as to how good or bad we'll be. We CAN and SHOULD go to Regionals every single year...but it's going to take a better approach in order to achieve it. Gotta work smarter and harder, like Todd said in the OP.

That's my opinion. I respect yours. I just fail to accept that we can't be a yearly regional team with a CWS appearance every 2-3 years or so. We should be a reload team in baseball. Not a "wait til we are Junior laden" team like football.

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Originally Posted by HSVDawg

We do not have everything we need. Facilities and fan support are our strengths, but are very very small parts of a very big equation. Glossing over the scholarship issue like its a small hurdle is whistling past the graveyard. Its about the biggest hurdle there is and there is no immediate solution to solve it. And that's not a "poor old MSU statement", it's a "poor old college baseball" statement because it is a drastically unlevel playing field.

And saying we still bring in top ranked classes is not accurate either. Baseball classes are ranked at signing day then never really assessed again. You lose guys to the draft, you lose guys to injury, you lose guys to the draft again after they are Jr's when they have just recently started contributing (think Zac Houston) and then you have guys that don't pan out. Way more variation and overall inaccuracy with college baseball recruiting rankings than with football and basketball. They aren't worth the paper they are printed on, and even if they were, our 2015 class was the only one we have signed recently that was even Top 10.



I don't think anyone is saying we can't expect to be very good and occasionally elite in baseball. The problem is people think we should be good exclusively because of big crowds and a nice stadium atmosphere. There's way more to it than that, namely getting and retaining talented players. A kid from Georgia isn't gonna pay $50k in tuition instead of getting $500k in signing bonus money because he can smell ribs smoking when he's standing in LF. And the other problem is that college baseball as a whole isn't structured well enough for any team to become perrenielly dominant like Alabama football. There is way too much variation and roster turnover with the draft (and now, with an increasing number of pitching injuries due to travel ball, etc.) for teams to just stay at the top forever. It just isn't feasible.

But again, none of that means we can't strive to be better and identify improvement areas. And I think we are doing that.

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You set up a mother f'ing scholarship fund to cover the differences in the lottery scholarships. It's not f'ing hard.

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Originally Posted by HSVDawg

And the other problem is that college baseball as a whole isn't structured well enough for any team to become perrenielly dominant like Alabama football. There is way too much variation and roster turnover with the draft (and now, with an increasing number of pitching injuries due to travel ball, etc.) for teams to just stay at the top forever. It just isn't feasible.

But again, none of that means we can't strive to be better and identify improvement areas. And I think we are doing that.

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And even the long time dominant programs - Texas, USC, ASU, FSU, Miami - have started to gear down from that year-in-year out dominance. Only 3 teams - LSU (4), UF(5), and UVA(4) - have made more than 3 CWS appearances this decade (2007-2016). We have 2 in that stretch - which is perhaps the most tumultuous stretch of baseball in our history. And that is after having gone to 0 CWS in the decade prior to that.

If you want to be able to help - give more money to campus scholarship funds so they can give more. That $30k OOS cost of attendance can shrink very easily with smart baseball players - or any student for that matter. My kid will be coming from GA this fall with $16k in scholarships and band stipends - which will make it less expensive then going to UGA with HOPE. Push our administration to be creative, but legal, with every available possible $ to close that gap.

With recruiting, it is as simple as this. You can't have any down years. When this team was bad in 2015, the bulk of the talent on the team were freshmen and sophomores. You can trace it back to 2012 and look at that class. We only lost one recruit to the draft that year, but overall, guys like Daniel Garner didn't pan out. John Mark Shelly had an injury that put him on the shelf. The bulk of the contribution from that class came in the form of JUCO transfers Brett Pirtle, Derrick Armstrong, and Alex Detz. The two high school guys that panned out were Jacob Robson and Cody Brown.

2013 was a banner recruiting year. Mississippi State had the #2 or #3 class based on which publication you pay attention two. That class produced Reid Humphreys, Dakota Hudson, Austin Sexton, Brent Rooker, Vance Tatum, Zac Houston, and Gavin Collins. This is the class that was the backbone of the 2016 SEC Championship team.

The problem is, that class was followed up with another class that appears to be a dud class. Of the 2014 class, Daniel Brown is in pro ball. Ryan Gridley is really the only guy from that class that is making key contributions to the team in 2017. This is the class that would comprise most of the juniors and some redshirt sophomores in this class. Others from this class include Cole Gordon and Josh Lovelady.

The 2015 class was another banner class, and this is the class where the majority of the talent on this team lies. However, this class has been decimated by pitching injuries, as this is the class that produced Parker Ford, Ethan Small, Keegan James, Jared Padgett, Kale Breax, and Noah Hughes. Blake Smith was also in this class, along with Jake Mangum, Hunter Stovall, Brant Blaylock, Konnor Pilkington, Ryan Rigby, Elih Marrero....etc. This class also produced Nate Lowe and Jack Kruger.

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Originally Posted by BrunswickDawg

And even the long time dominant programs - Texas, USC, ASU, FSU, Miami - have started to gear down from that year-in-year out dominance. Only 3 teams - LSU (4), UF(5), and UVA(4) - have made more than 3 CWS appearances this decade (2007-2016). We have 2 in that stretch - which is perhaps the most tumultuous stretch of baseball in our history. And that is after having gone to 0 CWS in the decade prior to that.

If you want to be able to help - give more money to campus scholarship funds so they can give more. That $30k OOS cost of attendance can shrink very easily with smart baseball players - or any student for that matter. My kid will be coming from GA this fall with $16k in scholarships and band stipends - which will make it less expensive then going to UGA with HOPE. Push our administration to be creative, but legal, with every available possible $ to close that gap.

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I might be misremembering but didn't Cohen do some of this to level the playing field when he got here? It seems like Polk had more of an agenda so we kind of suffered for it. My cousin got a lot of scholarship money to go to UAB because my uncle and aunt looked for it. They figured out there is a lot of scholarship money that isn't used because people just don't know to apply for it.

Actually, baseball classes are ranked at signing and then ranked again in September/October when they see who actually made it to campus. The collegiate baseball recruiting rankings tend to come out in October.

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Originally Posted by Tbonewannabe

I might be misremembering but didn't Cohen do some of this to level the playing field when he got here? It seems like Polk had more of an agenda so we kind of suffered for it. My cousin got a lot of scholarship money to go to UAB because my uncle and aunt looked for it. They figured out there is a lot of scholarship money that isn't used because people just don't know to apply for it.

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I'm pretty sure Cohen did - but there is still a limited amount of money to go around. The more those funds grow, the better it is for the university as a whole. The side effect is more money for "walk-ons" on academic scholarships that cover a larger piece of the pie.

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Originally Posted by CadaverDawg

I once again counter your argument with "how is Ole Miss doing it so consistently under the same set of rules"? Don''t sit there and tell me it's not possible or it's too hard to do, when I witness it yearly happening with our instate rival.

You put our program in Regionals 14 of the next 16 years like OM has been doing...we'll win a National Title or multiple. And they'll do it too...at this rate before us, bc they are a model of consistency whereas we're a lightning in a bottle crapshoot yearly that is dependent on Jucos as to how good or bad we'll be. We CAN and SHOULD go to Regionals every single year...but it's going to take a better approach in order to achieve it. Gotta work smarter and harder, like Todd said in the OP

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Ole Miss really hasn't been all that more consistent than we have since we stabilized in 2011 after the Polk II disaster. The only difference between the programs since that time are that they didn't sign a turd recruiting class in 2014, which was the sole reason behind our 2015 struggles and much of our struggles this year. They also didn't have their roster decimated by 7 Tommy John surgeries. That's what I don't get about these comparisons to the consistency of Ole Miss. People say OM has been to 16 straight regionals or whatever and insinuate we have been off that path of consistency for some time when it is really been just the past 2 or 3 years. And what happened before 2011 is all ancient history that was entirely attributed to Polk II, so there is no need to rehash all that yet again.

At the end if the day though, I do certainly agree that we need to go to the regionals every year....once we stabilize the program. We were very stable from 2011-2014, then hit a rough patch caused by one really bad class. I think once Cann gets a couple of recruiting classes under his belt we can certainly expect that again.

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Originally Posted by Cooterpoot

You set up a mother f'ing scholarship fund to cover the differences in the lottery scholarships. It's not f'ing hard.

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Sounds easy enough. I'm sure no one at the NCAA (nor Bracky) will notice that we have a dedicated academic scholarship fund that is only given to baseball players. The NCAA tightly monitors any disbersements of academic funding to athletes. The only way you can get away with it is to set up a trust scholarship similar to what Vandy has that gives out "leadership scholarships" based on extracurricular participation. And even with those, you have to set out a whole hell of a lot of money because you have to give it out to all students (not just baseball players). There are things that can be done to close the gap somewhat, but they have to be done carefully and they have to be all-inclusive of all students.

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Originally Posted by BrunswickDawg

Todd - acceptance is the first stage of admitting you have a problem.....

I'm going to play asshole in this thread. Other than attendance/atmosphere, why do people think we should be some sort of dominant baseball power? I swear, we are as bad as the guys in Oxford pining for 1960. The fact is we have a very good history, but we never have been in the same league as the top powers over the years. We have never had a decade long run of making the NCAA post season. In the past 45 years, we have not won back to back SEC titles, or back to back SEC Tourneys. In the past 45 years, we have been to the NCAA post season 30 times, but have only made it to Omaha 9 times. That is one trip to Omaha every 5 years. That is not a team with some birthright place in NCAA lore. It is a solid baseball program that can put together a solid post season with a group of seasoned vets every few years. Our baseball program is the pride of the school because it is the only program with any type of consistent winning and national profile throughout our history. So, there is no FIX for returning MSU Baseball to some sort of mythical dominance. It never existed.

If we continue to make that mythical past our goal, our baseball program will suffer the same fate as the OM football team - consistent turnover because expectations are never met, shortcuts taken to return to glory without building a solid foundation (you can argue Cohen did this last year), and a continually angry fanbase.

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There is a HUGE difference between MSU baseball and Ole Miss football.

1. We've actually legitimately played for a NC and have done so within the last five years.

2. We've won the SEC within the last five years.

3. We didn't have to cheat excessively to do it.

My point is maybe we've never had some "sort of mythical dominance" because we aren't or haven't totally utilized the resources that we have. We should look at the resources that we have and utilize them better- because whether you think we are or are not a baseball superpower and I think we all agree that losing seasons are totally unacceptable. When we have two in three years- there needs to be a long look taken at the program. And yes, I'm assuming we have a losing season this year. I hope I'm wrong. And here's some perspective on our CWS appearances compared to the rest of the country.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/College_World_Series

As you can see we're easily top 20 historically- and probably better than that because we're more relevant than a couple of those teams- namely Northern Colorado. Also scroll down to "Most CWS appearances without a title."

I'm past the admitting/acceptance phase- I'm at the what do we do to fix it stage? Last year on this board it was pretty well established that we should be at least a two seed in a regional every year. I think that's more than reasonable for what we have at MSU. I think others have had some good things to add to this discussion- and the thing I agree with the most is MSU needs to pay more attention to baseball than it does. Yes, I know we're building a new stadium. I think Cohen can help the baseball program out immensely as an AD- it would be nice if he acts as a GM figure for us. We need him to help Cann find scholarship money legally. We need our baseball friends- the former players namely the big leaguers and ex-big leaguers and then people like Roy Oswalt and Marcus Thames that are MSU fans but didn't play for us, and not to mention MLB scouts that are MSU alums and coaches to help get the best players to MSU. We need friendly local pressure on recruits to attend MSU before going pro. What I mean by that is we need our fans to stop saying "Golly gee you should go ahead and take that pro ball money, I don't blame you"- but at the same time we don't need to go all South Panola/Oxford and threaten them and their families within an inch of their lives either. Tell recruits that we want them to come to MSU and help us win a NC and then after that they will make more money after we make them into the next Hunter Renfroe. That happens at LSU. And if they still go pro- then wish them well. And don't get me started on the people that don't think that we deserve a good baseball stadium because the team is having a bad year. Cadaver took care of that for me today anyway.

I actually think Cann is the right kind of coach for us- has pro ties, has LSU ties, is young and is very energetic. I think the biggest thing is he needs his own staff and especially his own pitching coach. I think we probably need a new S&C guy. We especially need to look at recruiting- we should not have to rely on JUCO's as much as we do and JUCO's or not classes like 2014 which is killing us now are totally unacceptable by any MSU standard high or low. I hope I see those changes made in the offseason.

I think the new stadium will signify a new era of MSU baseball- and one that I am optimistic will be even better than we have ever seen in our lives. I'm at the point now where I want a total reboot of MSU baseball even though I've certainly enjoyed all the good times and make no mistake about that. I just want us to take it to the next level.

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Originally Posted by Dawgface

Give me the cliff notes.

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(1) we haven't recruited high school talent for perennial success
(2) we get too many HS commitments from players that will never play college baseball
(2b) we seem to be caught by surprise by elite players signing pro-contracts
(3) we have been depending too much on last second JUCO signings to replace graduates and draftees
(4) we have been fortunate to find players like Pirtle, Lowe, Kruger, Detz, and Rigby to fill key roles

Finally
(5) if we want to be great, recruit and develop good HS players and stop raiding Northwest CC and Hinds CC for instant starters. Elite teams don't need to do that.

Sorry if I messed up what you said Todd

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Originally Posted by The Federalist Engineer

(1) we haven't recruited high school talent for perennial success
(2) we get too many HS commitments from players that will never play college baseball
(2b) we seem to be caught by surprise by elite players signing pro-contracts
(3) we have been depending too much on last second JUCO signings to replace graduates and draftees
(4) we have been fortunate to find players like Pirtle, Lowe, Kruger, Detz, and Rigby to fill key roles

Finally
(5) if we want to be great, recruit and develop good HS players and stop raiding Northwest CC and Hinds CC for instant starters. Elite teams don't need to do that.

Sorry if I messed up what you said Todd

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I think you did a good job Cliff.

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Originally Posted by Todd4State

I'm going to do something a little bit different because I think everyone knows how I feel and I don't want to regurgitate that again. We have problems and I can rationalize why they are happening or at least give me opinion on that. That just means that what is happening is explainable. That, however doesn't mean it's acceptable. The bottom line is that what is going on with MSU baseball is unacceptable- and we know what the problems are. Everyone associated with MSU baseball should be pissed off right now.

Sure, we don't have lottery scholarships. That just means we don't have everything. We have a lot of things that most programs would kill for- things that even some of the lottery schools don't have. I could vent I suppose- but there's been enough of that on here. I want to talk about how to fix it. I want to talk about having a losing season maybe every 20 years instead of every other year. You can put down our program and say "it's not 1985 anymore"- but the fact is we deserve and should have better. We have shown that we can be a consistent winner throughout the years and have done some pretty good things even recently.

So how do we fix it?

I'm going to steal a line from Hugh Freeze- we got to recruit better players. I won't say that to the team's face like Freeze did though. Like Kenny Powers once said to his Mexican League team- "Right now- you suck; but don't get all defensive on me, I suck right now too." That's probably how my speech to our team would go too if I said it to their face.

Anyway- we have to change how we recruit hitters. Cohen did a good job of getting elite hitters to commit to us. He did a horrible job of getting them past the draft. Even worse was how he tried to make up for their loss. The only way to overcome that is to evaluate player's signability better. There are more and more really good players that want to go to college first. As I've said- we're not always going to get everyone we sign past the draft. Cann was not able to get everyone at LSU. That's the nature of the business- but we have to have a better idea of WHO is going to go and then make an informed decision on how to replace that player. I remember the class a couple of years ago- there was an interview with Cohen about how many guys we would get into school out of that class, and he said he felt like there was a chance we would get all of them in. We didn't- we lost Fenter, Riley, and Pickett out of that group. And I would say that most players do know whether they are going to go pro or not before the draft even happens. We HAVE TO do a better job with that.

Who do we replace those players with? Well, nowadays baseball recruiting is changing. We're seeing more and more guys flip. There are also players that simply develop later and that shows up their senior year. When you are trying to evaluate high school players, you have to remember that they develop at different rates and some will be obviously good in junior high- like Bryce Harper and some it won't be until their junior or senior year in high school like Hunter Renfroe. Those are the two avenues that I think we should use the most when replacing players. And if a guy decides to go to school because he didn't like where he was drafted or whatever- so what? Now we have two really good players. Let the coaches figure out the scholarship situation.

At the end of the recruiting cycle we need to make sure that pretty much every position is filled so that when our players are juniors they won't be young. And that needs to happen for every single class going forward. We need 11-14 commitments- 2-6 pitchers, a catcher, four infielders including a first baseman, and three outfielders. I know that's over the limit of 35- we have to process out as we need to. The ultimate goal is to get a junior laden class every year.

On the JUCO's- they have value. We saw that last year with Lowe and Kruger. The problem is we over-rely on them for key positions and as we see what happens when they don't pan out. It can get pretty ugly. But the thing about it is- we really don't need to rely on the JUCO's so much. We're one of the top programs in the country in the SEC. We should be able to attract really good high school talent and don't really need to rely on the JUCO's as much as we are. I hope Cann goes away from this- some of our classes are almost 50% JUCO guys. That's not good. JUCO's are good for sidearm/submarine guys like Rigby, catch and throw guys like Lovelady- but the others we should take very selectively. I take a JUCO it needs to be someone with D-I/power 5 experience like Lowe and Kruger, or someone that was drafted out of high school and went JUCO, or see above- an arm angle guy or a catch and throw guy. And that's it. By the time the JUCO's guys figure it out, we've really only gotten one good year out of them if that.

As far as the pitching goes- first and foremost, Cann and Cohen need to take a very long look as to why we have had so many arm injuries. The solution at this point is to patiently wait on everyone to get better. But no one else in the country has as many- again it's unacceptable for the standards that are MSU baseball and even worse we're talking about players getting hurt. We need to look not only at our pitching program but also take a long look at our S&C program. If we need to make changes with the S&C aspect of our staff we by all means need to do so. IF it's true that our S&C guy wasn't on the same page as our last pitching coach and guys have gotten injured because of it- he needs to be fired. To me- and remember my career is in rehab so I have some knowledge here even though sports rehab isn't my background- that's absolutely negligent. Let's go find the very best S&C coach for baseball out there and hire him.

Also as far as pitching goes I think Cann needs to get his own pitching coach that is HIS own guy. Right now Gary Henderson is essentially a guy trying to rehab his career and get through some things. We need a pitching coach that is just as impressive as Cann is that is upbeat and can recruit and has a MLB background like Cann. Pitching is SO key in this conference. If you don't have it, you're screwed.

What can make me feel better about this season right now? Nothing really. I do hope that they let me detonate the grandstand at Dudy-Noble this May though. That would probably be a good way to get out some pent up frustration. Or maybe they'll just let all of us at EliteDawgs have a hammer. I bet we could take down the grandstand in an hour as a group. Or even better- maybe someone from the athletic dept. could read this and actually put my ideas into action.

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Great read. I agree. We grow up loving MSU Baseball. We ask these kids to come here and commit to being part of that great Hail State family. Competing for out of state kids is hard and I will tell you why. Out of state kids have to earn academic scholarship to qualify for out of state tuition waiver. So all academic money goes to out of state tuition portion. If they don't get baseball money it's a hefty price tag still to bear. If they don't have the grades and are not on academic have have some financial decisions to make if they don't get much baseball scholarship money. So that's one problem already. Now we have uncertainty again about coaching. Nothing scares a recruit more than thinking the coach that he has built the relationship with is leaving. As discouraged as everyone is right now I assure you no one is more discouraged than the pitchers that are hurt now and no coach that recruited them is still here. Add to that five of them could have signed in the draft out of high school and turned it down because they wanted to be part of MSU Baseball. It may be a mess right now but it can be turned around quickly and we should expect that. The players that are invested and committed deserve that.

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Originally Posted by Todd4State

I think you did a good job Cliff.

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ISWYDT
And I chuckled.

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Originally Posted by NewDawg

Great read. I agree. We grow up loving MSU Baseball. We ask these kids to come here and commit to being part of that great Hail State family. Competing for out of state kids is hard and I will tell you why. Out of state kids have to earn academic scholarship to qualify for out of state tuition waiver. So all academic money goes to out of state tuition portion. If they don't get baseball money it's a hefty price tag still to bear. If they don't have the grades and are not on academic have have some financial decisions to make if they don't get much baseball scholarship money. So that's one problem already. Now we have uncertainty again about coaching. Nothing scares a recruit more than thinking the coach that he has built the relationship with is leaving. As discouraged as everyone is right now I assure you no one is more discouraged than the pitchers that are hurt now and no coach that recruited them is still here. Add to that five of them could have signed in the draft out of high school and turned it down because they wanted to be part of MSU Baseball. It may be a mess right now but it can be turned around quickly and we should expect that. The players that are invested and committed deserve that.

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Thank you! And I heard something interesting on the WBC tonight about pitchers in MLB and I think it coorelates with Tommy John and the year round pitching- 60% of American born pitchers are from "The North" where they can't play year round baseball. I know Vanderbilt has had a lot of success getting pitchers from up there in places like Massachusetts. Maybe we should start doing the same at least a little bit.

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Originally Posted by Todd4State

Thank you! And I heard something interesting on the WBC tonight about pitchers in MLB and I think it coorelates with Tommy John and the year round pitching- 60% of American born pitchers are from "The North" where they can't play year round baseball. I know Vanderbilt has had a lot of success getting pitchers from up there in places like Massachusetts.

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Those Yankees might encounter some serious culture shock when they get here, possibly more than Raffy experienced***