Bearing FRUIT....what does the "fruit" show?

There seems to be an opinion that I've noticed on here by some about our offense. I am of an opinion (take it for what it is) that we have turned into a "pass happy" offense. A few things:

1.) What is the spread core principle? The spread is designed to LITERALLY make a defense be HONEST and not cheat! The key is the safety position! Spreads are designed (whether by a run core or pass core) to make safeties be honest and not cheat. By doing this you must have guys who can make plays in the space provided to create 1 on 1 match ups. I could give a rip what Bo Bounds says but we HAVE THESE GUYS! We have the greatest QB in MSU history slinging the ball around. So what's the problem? Why are we averaging no more points than we are in these last games (dating back to Arky last yr)?

a.) Defenses do NOT respect our passing game. The reason they don't is because most spread gunning teams actually stretch the field vertically! We do not!

Most defensive schemes we face are cover 1. Meaning 1 high safety. LSU actually went cover 0 (no high safety at all). Offenses that DO stretch the field would drool over this coverage(s)! I'm a Bible thumper & an absolute Jesus freak, I believe though roughly in the concept of "fruit". We bear the fruit of a team STUCK in a rut of no identity based on what defenses show us. This is a HUGE problem because our best teams were teams that had an identity! We need to find out who we are on offense and if we are going to be a passing team (as fruits have shown), then we need to stretch the field vertically but we CANNOT because we have pass pro problems. So what do we do?

How about we put a TE on the slot, motion him, then park him in the backfield to block.

I think we should program a deep pass play or two into our first 15 play script and then make it a goal to make sure that we attempt at least five deep passes a game.

And I'd make sure that I target Bear with most of those.

I do agree with you that our play caller is in a rut. I am hopeful that Jenkins will help the o-line and the only other solutions I know are to play an H-back on the wing like we did against A&M, and to play a FB.

I'm not an Xs and Os football guy, but I guess I'm missing where Dak is being molested in the pocket. Trust me, I've watched enough MSU football over the years to know what it looks like when a QB is molested and I don't see that happening. This certainly isn't our best offensive line, but I'm missing where they are supposedly so bad.

From my vantage point, Dak has mostly had time in the pocket and we are simply choosing to not stretch the field.

Again, perhaps I have clue what I'm talking about and our offensive line is awful, but I'm not seeing that.

We're a pass happy team that can't protect the QB long enough to go deep. That's an issue.

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Originally Posted by Political Hack

We're a pass happy team that can't protect the QB long enough to go deep. That's an issue.

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Is it true that we don't protect the QB long enough?

Again, I'm missing where Dak is being molested back there

Mike Leach's answer was 4 verticals. Four guys running deep down the field will open stuff up short & intermediate, and create running space. Will also open a home run throw if the D isn't tryin to cover the 4 verticals.

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Originally Posted by Coach 57

There seems to be an opinion that I've noticed on here by some about our offense. I am of an opinion (take it for what it is) that we have turned into a "pass happy" offense. A few things:

1.) What is the spread core principle? The spread is designed to LITERALLY make a defense be HONEST and not cheat! The key is the safety position! Spreads are designed (whether by a run core or pass core) to make safeties be honest and not cheat. By doing this you must have guys who can make plays in the space provided to create 1 on 1 match ups. I could give a rip what Bo Bounds says but we HAVE THESE GUYS! We have the greatest QB in MSU history slinging the ball around. So what's the problem? Why are we averaging no more points than we are in these last games (dating back to Arky last yr)?

a.) Defenses do NOT respect our passing game. The reason they don't is because most spread gunning teams actually stretch the field vertically! We do not!

Most defensive schemes we face are cover 1. Meaning 1 high safety. LSU actually went cover 0 (no high safety at all). Offenses that DO stretch the field would drool over this coverage(s)! I'm a Bible thumper & an absolute Jesus freak, I believe though roughly in the concept of "fruit". We bear the fruit of a team STUCK in a rut of no identity based on what defenses show us. This is a HUGE problem because our best teams were teams that had an identity! We need to find out who we are on offense and if we are going to be a passing team (as fruits have shown), then we need to stretch the field vertically but we CANNOT because we have pass pro problems. So what do we do?

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Play action???

Dak has to see or choose to throw to the open deep man, then get the ball to him. There were two wide-open TD opportunties missed.

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Originally Posted by Treemydawg

Play action???

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Not with a weak running game.

4 verticals sounds pretty good with Bear, the Fred's, and Gray. Myles when he's back as well.

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Originally Posted by Political Hack

We're a pass happy team that can't protect the QB long enough to go deep. That's an issue.

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The comment above sums it up nicely.

It speaks to deficiency on the Oline. We should have had a fullback, Hback or TE to help our LT because he was abused at A&M. Maybe 2nd string guy can do better, I hope. A&M on the Oline kept a great number of blockers home to protect because it seemed that when we rushed only 3-4 that everyone was doubleteamed.
We need to hit more of our receivers in stride too. Many of our routes seem to NOT do this, and by not doing this the D has to respect us deep even less. Therefore they cheat up and make our running game look more shitty.

Dak has time and the garbage O line actually blocks well enough on pass pro.

The wideouts by and large cannot get separation. That was the problem against LSU, no open receivers. I was amazed at how Dak was able to complete so many against LSU.

Against Bama, Ole Miss.....we will struggle getting separation.

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Originally Posted by SPMT

Dak has time and the garbage O line actually blocks well enough on pass pro.

The wideouts by and large cannot get separation. That was the problem against LSU, no open receivers. I was amazed at how Dak was able to complete so many against LSU.

Against Bama, Ole Miss.....we will struggle getting separation.

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If UNM doesn't fix their secondary we will get separation. They are a mess right now. Bama's weak link is their secondary but their front 7 is really turning it up so it can overcome some issues on the back end. And some of their issues are just experience problems so you figure they should be getting better as the year goes on.

Good post 57- I agree. We have no identity and absolutely have to stretch the field vertically instead of all this West Coast horizontal passing game. Hell, even Bill Walsh threw it deep

What's interesting is that we've run the slot streak play twice with Myles in the 1Q of both our last games and it was wide open. Walley was open deep late in the LSU game. We've thrown a few deep routes to Gray, Bear, Brown but haven't completed a ton of them.

To me a big thing we lack is a guy at WR that can make the 1st guy miss and get YAC. Bear can do it, but we're not hitting him in stride on some stuff to do it. Ross has been a very good receiver for us, but he's not creating much extra yardage after catches. Some of that is routes we're running as well.

I think our passing game it mostly ok. I think it's looked worse b/c when we've set some stuff up we've missed the play. If Dak hits Shumper (twice), Walley, Myles are we as concerned? I do notice Bear isn't getting much seperation on routes though which makes me curious if we're telegraphing the routes or if he's not a great route runner.

But this is still far and away the best aeriel attack we've ever had.

The issue is trying to run. Dak was better, but to me still looks a step slower than last year for some reason. Williams shows the most natural running instincts of the RB crew but had to hold onto the ball. Holloway his the holes the hardest and at least usually generates positive yardage. Still no clue on Lee b/c honestly he hasn't gotten a lot of carries that weren't straight into a run blitz

Yea, we have missed a few deep balls with a couple of guys wide open. I know you can't hit them every time but have to connect on a few of them. We also seem to have a lot of possession receivers and not many burners. Gabe has beat some people, but as far as having a guy that is just going to run past somebody, who is it on this team?

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Originally Posted by Irondawg

What's interesting is that we've run the slot streak play twice with Myles in the 1Q of both our last games and it was wide open. Walley was open deep late in the LSU game. We've thrown a few deep routes to Gray, Bear, Brown but haven't completed a ton of them.

To me a big thing we lack is a guy at WR that can make the 1st guy miss and get YAC. Bear can do it, but we're not hitting him in stride on some stuff to do it. Ross has been a very good receiver for us, but he's not creating much extra yardage after catches. Some of that is routes we're running as well.

I think our passing game it mostly ok. I think it's looked worse b/c when we've set some stuff up we've missed the play. If Dak hits Shumper (twice), Walley, Myles are we as concerned? I do notice Bear isn't getting much seperation on routes though which makes me curious if we're telegraphing the routes or if he's not a great route runner.

But this is still far and away the best aeriel attack we've ever had.

The issue is trying to run. Dak was better, but to me still looks a step slower than last year for some reason. Williams shows the most natural running instincts of the RB crew but had to hold onto the ball. Holloway his the holes the hardest and at least usually generates positive yardage. Still no clue on Lee b/c honestly he hasn't gotten a lot of carries that weren't straight into a run blitz

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I have to wonder, if we can sit there and predict "here comes Holloway up the gut on 2 and 10...." are opposing coaches able to do the same thing with our WR routes? Are we running the exact same stuff from the exact same positions on the field? Coach34 alluded to this the other day comparing what we do to Kiffin at AL and his offensive variation/creativity. If so, that allows defenders an advantage which allows them to clamp down on our WR's. Dan complains about WR executing, running routes, blah, blah...but with defenders jumping/anticipating these routes, and not respecting the deep ball maybe we are banging our head against the wall expecting different results. It is awful to watch Lee run head on into a run blitz.....painful. Maybe you see Bear sulking because he is effectively doing the same thing making it difficult for him to do his thing? I am not a coach / didn't play / but ask others who may know more about route running if this is the case?

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Originally Posted by BB30

Yea, we have missed a few deep balls with a couple of guys wide open. I know you can't hit them every time but have to connect on a few of them. We also seem to have a lot of possession receivers and not many burners. Gabe has beat some people, but as far as having a guy that is just going to run past somebody, who is it on this team?

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Its Fred Brown- he can fly. And why not throw it deep to Wilson? Give him a shot to make a play

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Originally Posted by SallyStansbury

I have to wonder, if we can sit there and predict "here comes Holloway up the gut on 2 and 10...." are opposing coaches able to do the same thing with our WR routes? Are we running the exact same stuff from the exact same positions on the field? Coach34 alluded to this the other day comparing what we do to Kiffin at AL and his offensive variation/creativity. If so, that allows defenders an advantage which allows them to clamp down on our WR's. Dan complains about WR executing, running routes, blah, blah...but with defenders jumping/anticipating these routes, and not respecting the deep ball maybe we are banging our head against the wall expecting different results. It is awful to watch Lee run head on into a run blitz.....painful. Maybe you see Bear sulking because he is effectively doing the same thing making it difficult for him to do his thing? I am not a coach / didn't play / but ask others who may know more about route running if this is the case?

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good post. Our predictability is a huge problem on offense

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Originally Posted by Coach34

Its Fred Brown- he can fly. And why not throw it deep to Wilson? Give him a shot to make a play

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I feel like early last season we threw it deep to Wilson knowing that he would at least get a defensive pass interference call. I want to say we got 3 or 4 calls doing that....not sure what is going on with this conservative nonsense.

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Originally Posted by SallyStansbury

I have to wonder, if we can sit there and predict "here comes Holloway up the gut on 2 and 10...." are opposing coaches able to do the same thing with our WR routes? Are we running the exact same stuff from the exact same positions on the field? Coach34 alluded to this the other day comparing what we do to Kiffin at AL and his offensive variation/creativity. If so, that allows defenders an advantage which allows them to clamp down on our WR's. Dan complains about WR executing, running routes, blah, blah...but with defenders jumping/anticipating these routes, and not respecting the deep ball maybe we are banging our head against the wall expecting different results. It is awful to watch Lee run head on into a run blitz.....painful. Maybe you see Bear sulking because he is effectively doing the same thing making it difficult for him to do his thing? I am not a coach / didn't play / but ask others who may know more about route running if this is the case?

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I don't see why not. They do this for a living and although all coaches sometimes miss stuff that's obvious to a fan, it's usually philosophy oriented matters. On Xs & Os, they are gonna see more than folk most times.

ETA: reading that last sentence, one can tell I've been watching Firefly recently.

If you guys can't see that we are actually getting open, you just don't know football. This isn't MRA Vs Steens County where there is busted coverage all over the field and it's so evident that anybody can see it. This is the SEC, where a step is 3 car lengths and 2 steps is a mile. We've got the playmakers. Wilson, Brown, Ross, Gray, Walley and Myles. Not to mention guys like Dear and Holloway out if the backfield. The issue is a combo of weak play calling and (possibly compounded by) no protection. Warren got worked by USM's DE more than a few times in that game. The problem is not many were watching. Don't always look at the ball! Actually look at the OL and see how many times Dak has bailed them out. It's not that difficult to see.

I don't think CDM is in trouble or needs to lose his job but I will make this suggestion: if he doesn't submit and hire a OC that he will actually LET call plays and oversee the offense CDM will be eating games like this his whole career. He has helped usher in a new era of football here, and for that I am grateful but unless he gets over being stubborn with this our program has reached it's peak. And honestly I'm okay with the ceiling for right now, because of where we've been. But he needs to stop talking about SEC west championships because as long as he is stubborn we won't beat the LSU's, Bama's & aTm's because of it on a consistent basis.

Really enjoy you insights, Coach 57. Very informative and well presented.

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Originally Posted by Coach 57

I will make this suggestion: if he doesn't submit and hire a OC that he will actually LET call plays and oversee the offense CDM will be eating games like this his whole career. He has helped usher in a new era of football here, and for that I am grateful but unless he gets over being stubborn with this our program has reached it's peak. And honestly I'm okay with the ceiling for right now, because of where we've been. But he needs to stop talking about SEC west championships because as long as he is stubborn we won't beat the LSU's, Bama's & aTm's because of it on a consistent basis.

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So what do you propose Stricklin do when he tells(asks) Dan to demote McCorvey, I mean Hevesy, and consider himself stepping aside as OC to allow someone new to improve play calling? and Dan tells him to eat a dick, that he invented football and created sustained success at MSU and that we should be happy to get 7-8 wins most years.....that talented olinemen love playing for Hevesy and it is merely coincidence that we continue to fail to find blue chip Olinemen to play for that guy!

It is a touchy situation, but should we as MSU fans be happy with 7-8 wins and a bowl game? Maybe we should?

See seen steady improvement on the offense. Fact is we are making proper attempts now. Remember I posted a couple of weeks ago that we were next to last in attempts.

Now we are attempting due to the growth in the ol...... And we are now finding the backs that can help that Ol.

During this whole time, we have had the ability to win those lost games. We will put it together, and I don't think we will drop another game.

The biggest problem I see....is speed....lack there of. Yeah, Dak is getting a small window to throw into...but we don't get enough separation for big YAC. We don't make people miss and out run folks when we do make a catch. Take the winning TD in UFvUT. That guy caught that ball standing flat footed, back to the endzone with 3 UT defenders around him. He alluded one and out ran the rest. We just don't have a guy with that type of quickness or speed. But I will agree on the homerun....we don't even attempt the deep ball. Hell, last week we lined a flanker up over the DE to help Warren on numerous plays. Take a chance there....throw it deep.

Our backfield....is the same situation. Sure, Dear should be the starting RB. That is mismanaged. But you still have one player with speed. He is 5-7 150....maybe. We create some holes, at times but our RB is late getting there and doesn't burst through, break tackles and make people miss. Also, anytime Dak saw that DE stay home last week, he gave the ball. He knew he couldn't beat the guy 1v1 in open field. If we could have gotten that DE in space and beat him....5-10 yard gains every time. But we gave the ball into a mass of humanity in the middle.

It's a talent problem. Maybe the play calling could be better but.......I don't think it would have mattered Saturday and it won't matter when we play Bama. But I bet cha our play calling is fine the next 3 weeks.

To address one thing at a time: to "Coach", our last 6 SEC games (minus MRA aka Vandy) we've scored 17, 20, 17, 19, 17 & 17. How do YOU see improvement? I'm not talking about yards, the offense we run is predicated on being good/decent between the 20's. I'm talking about actually scoring TDs which is what we MUST do vs SEC teams to take that next step. The team that took the field Vs LSU in Baton Rouge was a down the field stretching offense. We were throwing deep routes to Wilson (as someone posted) even if it didn't equate to much, we did it as a threat. But we haven't done that much if any.

To "Maroon13" speed is great, but you don't always HAVE to have it. There are dozens of WRs faster than Cooper last year but it's not always about speed. It's honestly about route running and hands. We have guys that do those things in Ross, Brown and Wilson. We also have a great WR coach in Billy. This is our best WR core we've ever had, but they are being under utilized & handcuffed by the almost west coast style routes we are running.

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Originally Posted by Maroonthirteen

The biggest problem I see....is speed....lack there of. Yeah, Dak is getting a small window to throw into...but we don't get enough separation for big YAC. We don't make people miss and out run folks when we do make a catch. Take the winning TD in UFvUT. That guy caught that ball standing flat footed, back to the endzone with 3 UT defenders around him. He alluded one and out ran the rest. We just don't have a guy with that type of quickness or speed. But I will agree on the homerun....we don't even attempt the deep ball. Hell, last week we lined a flanker up over the DE to help Warren on numerous plays. Take a chance there....throw it deep.

Our backfield....is the same situation. Sure, Dear should be the starting RB. That is mismanaged. But you still have one player with speed. He is 5-7 150....maybe. We create some holes, at times but our RB is late getting there and doesn't burst through, break tackles and make people miss. Also, anytime Dak saw that DE stay home last week, he gave the ball. He knew he couldn't beat the guy 1v1 in open field. If we could have gotten that DE in space and beat him....5-10 yard gains every time. But we gave the ball into a mass of humanity in the middle.

It's a talent problem. Maybe the play calling could be better but.......I don't think it would have mattered Saturday and it won't matter when we play Bama. But I bet cha our play calling is fine the next 3 weeks.

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One thing I've noticed keeping our YAC down is that we throw a lot of (if not most of) our passes right along the sidelines where the receiver either has to tip toe to get his balance and more yards or he is lead out of bounds by the route/pass.