Got into it with a coach today. Feedback?

Looking for feedback and advice, so this is a bit long. Apologize for the length, so please just ignore if you're not willing to offer your opinion. Long story short, my daughter plays for a fastpitch travel team coached by her high school head coach (I was 3rd base coach). He decided late to start his own 18U club and asked my daughter to play with his team, turning down a chance to play with an established 16U team.

He made tons of promises, etc. She agreed. We paid $425 to be on this club, as did all the young ladies.

His team has been an utter disaster, starting 0-13. He is friends with a young lady, all-star player from another team. At a tourney earlier this year, he asked her to play for us, even though she is not on our team, does not pay to be on it, and never, ever practices with the team. Girls who were members rode the bench so this all-star could play instead. At the time, I was also coaching, and told him I thought he was way outta line, that there was no excuse for sitting girls on the team so that a girl who is on another team could play. Told him it was a great way of making young ladies not want to play for him in the future.

Fast forward to today, another tourney. He told me he was doing it again, and I told him again I thought it was a really bad mistake, and that I'd be supremely pissed if it was my kid who sat as a result. He gets into a discussion about how he wants to win so we can get more games. We discuss the challenge we have with most players, including my daughter making errors. He acknowledges that hsi daughter has been perhaps the most error-prone on our team this season, yet she does not miss a start. He asks for my 2-cents, and I give it to him straight, player-by-player.

We get to the park this morning and not only does he start that all-star from another team, he benches my daughter. She has been the starting 2nd baseman in 90% of our games and has played as well, or better than just about anybody on our team, particularly on defense. In the previous day's game we score a total of 2 runs, one because me daughter drag bunts for a single, steals, 2nd, steals 3rd, then comes home on an error. Now she is on the bench. 2 games today and she doesn't get in until the last inning of a blowout loss in the last game. I am steaming mad, certain this prick is pissed at me for being honest and is taking it out on my 16 year old.

Of course, she gets in 1 inning at SS and makes a nice play on a chopper for an out, and rifles home a relay throw that never had a chance, but looked good anyway. She gets up to bat and lays down another beautiful drag bunt the other team knows is coming, and again she beats it out (Did I mention she is very fast?). After the game he comes up to my daughter, wife & me and tells my daughter what a beautiful bunt, etc. He then extends his hand to me, which, biting my tongue I take as I've promised my wife & daughter not to get into with him. But them he starts trying to chat me up, and I tell him to "Save it". He then wants to get into it, and loudly in front of everyone. I tell him it's not the best time, I'm pissed and will talk to him later. But he wants to push it. I tell him it's best we just part ways, "you go your way & I'll go mine", but he won't let it go, saying, "Yeah, that's what you do!". I can;t control it anymore so come back with, "What the hell are you talking about?". He is talking loud in front of team and parents, acting like I've got nothing to say, clearly trying to paint me as one of "those parents". So I go off on him telling anyone who cares to listen, "You don't bench any members of your team so that another girl can play, I don't care how good she is. She is not on our team. She did not pay the club dues, she did not go to the 3-a-week practices", etc. I try to walk away, but he snaps something smartass back. I tell him (and this is true) that at least 4 girls are seriously thinking of quitting on him. He says, "Let 'em quit!".

I just keep walking. My daughter is upset with me because she didn't want to go out this way and is worried he will take it out on her this, her senior year in HS. She knows he is wrong, but wants me to try apologizing to this coach so she won't get screwed out of her senior year in softball. I tell her when somebody tries to force a shit-sandwich down your throat, you don't eat it, and if this prick tries to mess with her in HS, I;ll go to the AD, Principal, the League execs, etc if he does.

Am I wrong?

No. He should have taken your cue and let it roll until the two of you could sit down and discuss it like men. In front of players and parents is not the right place, which you tried to avoid, but he didn't. If this coach is any kind of man and wants only what's best for the team he won't take it out on your daughter. If it's possible, I would make peace without apologizing. Start slowly talking to him again, etc, you know the drill when you had a spat with someone a long time ago and would really rather just move on.

I'm not going to say you were wrong in what you did because I would have done the same thing. Nothing pisses me off more than a coach that plays favorites. I heard a woman tell her team when they started playing tournament ball, at about 12 years old, that this was no longer feel good ball and you play to win. That being said you play the best players on "your team"

Physical violence is way underrated as an effective form of conflict resolution.

Just do whatever needs to be done to help your daughter. The rest is all just BS in the end.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Political Hack

Physical violence is way underrated as an effective form of conflict resolution.

Just do whatever needs to be done to help your daughter. The rest is all just BS in the end.

---

Nice

No. And make it very obvious to the administration of your school that there will be legal consequences if they allow this jerk to effect your daughters senior year.

That is your right and duty.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Political Hack

Physical violence is way underrated as an effective form of conflict resolution.

Just do whatever needs to be done to help your daughter. The rest is all just BS in the end.

---

I totally agree with this. Sometimes, someone just needs to get their ass kicked.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Political Hack

Physical violence is way underrated as an effective form of conflict resolution.

Just do whatever needs to be done to help your daughter. The rest is all just BS in the end.

---

Haha, this guy!

If it were me, I would definitely leave his select team or whatever. The fact that he is her HS coach complicates things a lot. I don't know what to tell you there, but I do know that typically HS sports to me seem to be even more about winning and the fact that it's his actual job and could be fired for not winning- I doubt that he would bench a player and put his livelihood in any kind of jeopardy like that.


It sounds like he is incompetent to me. He gets a ringer and then she doesn't have to pay the fee? I don't understand that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Todd4State

If it were me, I would definitely leave his select team or whatever. The fact that he is her HS coach complicates things a lot. I don't know what to tell you there, but I do know that typically HS sports to me seem to be even more about winning and the fact that it's his actual job and could be fired for not winning- I doubt that he would bench a player and put his livelihood in any kind of jeopardy like that.


It sounds like he is incompetent to me. He gets a ringer and then she doesn't have to pay the fee? I don't understand that.

---

Todd,

The pay is miniscule, a stipend. He wouldn't be losing his livelihood. The only reason he is coaching high school is because his daughter became a freshman at my daughter's school this year. Though he has never coached before, he did play in college and was drafted.

It's worse than "he gets a ringer who doesn't pay" The All-Star plays for another competing club. He got away with playing her in a couple of tourneys because her real team wasn't in the tourneys we were in and weren't playing elsewhere. I'm not even sure it's within the rules. He knows the girl's family, and is trying to steal her away from her present club for fall ball. So he lets her play at no charge, with no practice, etc. If she shows up, she plays.

For those interested, here's the email I decided to send to him and the assistant coach (also AD at our HS):

I did not intend for our conversation to be a shouting match, and in front of the team and parents. I went ahead and shook your hand after the game, even though I was steaming, but when you wanted to chat about the "good bunt Abby made", it was more than I could hold back, so I told you to "save it". My intention was to talk to you man-to-man later, after I'd cooled down, but it quickly devolved into us going at it in an inappropriate fashion for everyone to witness. That is why I have also cc'd XXXX on this email. I'm sure she's either a witness or has heard.

I will say again, as I said to you the first time you used TXXXX in a previous tourney, and then this morning before we headed to the park, I think it is way out-of-line to bench any of our players in favor of a player not on our team. We talked about other things as well, and I gave you my honest, frank opinion and feedback, as you have always told me you desired and appreciated. I did share my frustration at other players never sitting, even though, and we agreed, in some cases they have actually been playing poorly enough to warrant some bench time over others, including Abby.

What I hope to impress upon you is my real anger stems from the TXXX situation. This is not CYO or even HS where you can ignore the failings of some and do what you wish unreproached. You accepted $425 from the parents, and made numerous promises to get them to join. While you can say you did not guarantee playing time, what you have done here trumps that. You have taken the money, let your young ladies come to 3-a-week practices for months, some skipping on opportunities to take vacations, etc, and rewarded some of them by playing a young lady who has done neither while they get to sit and watch. All because this young lady who plays for the BXXXs is an All-Star and you wanted to get that elusive "W".

I'm sure the girls who got to play more than an inning today are really happy to get the win, but I wonder if they understand the cost to their less fortunate teammates. If they do, and are still ok with that, then I'd suggest a better lesson needs to be taught about sportsmanship.

Based on our altercation today, I suspect you won't receive this email well. But before you write me off as just another disgruntled parent complaining about his kid's playing time, consider that I have been there for you for months, digging holes for the bases at practice, fetching balls so you could run drills uninterrupted, taking on any task you ever asked of me, meeting you at West Coast Sporting Goods, etc, etc. I never got a dime for all those hours I gave you without complaint, and never asked for one. When you invited me to coach and told me I'd have to buy shirts, pants & a hat, I did it on my dime. The only thing I asked of you was to ask the unnamed parents who complained about me what issues or concerns they had. (A little background here for the board, the parents who complained about my coaching had a daughter who wanted to play my daughter's position, so they asked that I not be allowed to coach their daughter) When you told me you didn't have time to get into a discussion with them about it, that struck me as a real one-sided friendship we were having, considering all the hours I put in for you didn't merit a few minutes discussion on my behalf.

Still, I stayed with you, though after that it was largely to learn coaching technique from you and LXXX until the grief about instructing kept coming and LXXX convinced me it wasn't worth the bullshit.

I will not deny I have a high degree of frustration stemming from multiple reasons mentioned above, but I could grin and bear it until today. You knew exactly how pissed I'd be if T. XXX played while Abby sat. My sense from today was that you didn't like what I had to say this morning, and took it out on Abby, whether subconsciously or not. Perhaps if you can look at this objectively, you can get a feel for where my mind was at when you wanted to offer small-talk after playing Abby an inning of garbage time today. I was in no mood to talk to you, knowing I might not be able to control my anger as Abby and my wife had urged me to do.

In retrospect, perhaps I should have smiled politely, told you want you wanted to hear, and found a way to handle it better later. But I, like you, am an alpha dog, and it's hard for guys like us to not be direct, even if confrontational. It's a failing I have that has cost me in the past. When I feel wronged, I have a hard time letting it go.

In any case, I'm not sure where we go from here. Abby has another opportunity to go to her best friend's cabin this week, and I'm inclined to let her go this time, even though it will mean she misses practice and perhaps the final tourney in Davis. But then, perhaps you're already counting on her not being there any more. It does seem really apparent you have little interest in actually playing her much anymore.

FWIW, though things can change, today you lost Romo, and have Abby, D AXXX & A GXXX hanging by a thread, not wanting to disappoint LXXX or jeopardize their senior seasons at HS. Romo may not be the most talented player on our team, but she did have terrific team spirit, was a leader in the dugout, worked hard at improving, etc. This is exactly what I cautioned you about with regard to playing TXXX. There was already limited playing time. Losing more to a girl not even on the team is more than some can swallow, and frankly more than you should have the right to subject them to when you charge for admission. If you think about it, you work for the parents, not the other way around. You simply can't treat this as a vehicle to do whatever you want, taking offense if & when a parent has a legitimate beef with you. Yes, I thought we were friends, but I did pay as much as any other parent, including the ones you didn't want to risk alienating by even a modest defense of me as a coach. Considering all I helped you with, one would think you might even owe me a bit more patience and consideration than others.

Well, there it is. That's what's on my mind and in my heart. This is what I would have preferred to discuss privately. Now that that cat is out of the bag, where do we go from here?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Political Hack

Physical violence is way underrated as an effective form of conflict resolution.

Just do whatever needs to be done to help your daughter. The rest is all just BS in the end.

---

Excellent advice!!I love this!

Another reason you don't play travel ball.

I am assuming your kid is good enough to play and should be starting all the time. In that case, I'd just leave the team. This prick knew he was pissing you off when he was trying to chat you up after the game. That's what manipulators do. Honestly, you probably should have jacked him.

You 'alpha dogs' sure do like to hem haw a lot.

You should've asked him to come behind the outfield fence to talk like men and then proceeded to whip his ass. Seriously though, I've been in a very similar situation before and it's not fair at all and any coach with his salt should understand that but a lot of these coaches only care about one thing, WINNING and padding their resumes. It's tough to control emotions when it involves one of your kids and I applaud you for that. I think you handled it pretty well considering. Not sure I could've done as well as you did.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Saltydog

Seriously though, I've been in a very similar situation before and it's not fair at all and any coach with his salt should understand that but a lot of these coaches only care about one thing, WINNING and padding their resumes.

---

I agree with your point, but I'm sort of thinking that this is summer league/travel ball. Do these guys really get judged by wins and losses? If anything, I'd use this as a chance to develop my team for the real competition that takes place during the school year. This is where many high school baseball/softball coaches go wrong IMO.

I see the problem, you're both alpha dogs.

Their is absolutely nothing more corrupt than fastpitch softball. Kids play because of who their parents are, how much money they have, skin color, who their third cousin is, if the kid is related to a high school or college coach, etc. Even had one coach tell a friend that her daughter could play on his travel team if she agreed to go out with him. When she said no, he took the offer off the table. Some of these dads live way too much through their teenage daughters.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by beerfarley

I see the problem, you're both alpha dogs.......Some of these dads live way too much through their teenage daughters.

---

Haha yep, and it seems to be some type of correlation there. People get in fights all the time over this type crap. The way I see it, the kids are talented or they aren't. If they are good enough, they'll play. It's the ones on the fence, that's where ya-ya-ing occurs. If I ever found myself on the bad end of that deal, I'd just find some other activity for my kid (hopefully that they are better at) and tell the coach to go f*ck themselves.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Goat Holder

Haha yep, and it seems to be some type of correlation there. People get in fights all the time over this type crap. The way I see it, the kids are talented or they aren't. If they are good enough, they'll play. It's the ones on the fence, that's where ya-ya-ing occurs. If I ever found myself on the bad end of that deal, I'd just find some other activity for my kid (hopefully that they are better at) and tell the coach to go f*ck themselves.

---

Thing is, both this coach, and the previous high school coach have said Abby has the tools to play in college. The talk on and on about her speed, quick hands, quick feet and instinct for the ball. She has always struggled with hitting, but this year we started trying her as a switch-hitter. It's made a big difference, as her speed makes her damn near unstoppable if she lays down on good drag bunt batting left-handed. And when she slap-hits, nearly every ball has to be fielded cleanly to just catch her at first. She's still learning, but has really started to come on lately as she gains confidence.

So softball is her best game, and best chance at playing in college. But there is no doubt this All Star from another team is more polished and a much stronger hitter with top-notch power. And the other girl who plays second is also very good, and a power hitter. She's not as fast as Abby, strikes out a ton, but when she does connect, it is often extra bases.

You are so right about the dad coach/daughter thing. His daughter is truly a remarkable athlete, but is in her second year of softball and is absolutely killing us with her terrible fielding. He justifies keeping her in because she is really fast and looks damn good striking out. It's like he keeps judging her on her potential rather than what she is doing. He'll briefly acknowledge her defensive shortcomings, but explain she "makes up for it with her offense" because if she gets on, she has a better chance of scoring due to her speed. What he refuses to see is she may be contributing at best 1-2 runs in a game offensively, while her defense usually costs us 2 to 5 times as much as that. She's one of those players in the outfield that, if a ball is hit to her, even the softest of fly balls, you hold your breath and expect a drop. She's had games where she's missed nearly every ball hit her way, run after run plating for the other team, yet she continues to stay in.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Goat Holder

Haha yep, and it seems to be some type of correlation there. People get in fights all the time over this type crap. The way I see it, the kids are talented or they aren't. If they are good enough, they'll play. It's the ones on the fence, that's where ya-ya-ing occurs. If I ever found myself on the bad end of that deal, I'd just find some other activity for my kid (hopefully that they are better at) and tell the coach to go f*ck themselves.

---

I had to do that this year. Around here if you have any connection to the university your kid plays. No matter the skill level. I won't lie, my kid was average at best and it wasted many a night that I could have been sitting on the couch staring at the walls. Softball is just about as exciting to me. When a seventh grader who's dad just happened to be a coach on staff here moved into town got playing time instantly when moving in after my kid busted her ass all fall and spring, we just said the hell with it. I can live with a kid that's better getting PT, but at least make them earn the shit.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Goat Holder

I agree with your point, but I'm sort of thinking that this is summer league/travel ball. Do these guys really get judged by wins and losses? If anything, I'd use this as a chance to develop my team for the real competition that takes place during the school year. This is where many high school baseball/softball coaches go wrong IMO.

---

This is what I was thinking. I believe your guy was well intentioned at the start, then his philosophy/pride took a turn for the worse during the season. I know a lot of academy teams that play basketball in MBA and city leagues in the summer and fall and get their brains beat in. They do it for a reason. I think your softball coach completely deviated from what he started out to do.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Original48

[/B]
This is what I was thinking. I believe your guy was well intentioned at the start, then his philosophy/pride took a turn for the worse during the season. I know a lot of academy teams that play basketball in MBA and city leagues in the summer and fall and get their brains beat in. They do it for a reason. I think your softball coach completely deviated from what he started out to do.

---

Spot on. I didn't bother to mention earlier that was what he told his girls from high school. He invited several of them to join, explaining it would help us next year. He actually did privately guarantee Abby her starting position based on her performance for him in high school. He told her she had "nothing to worry about because he already knew what kind of player she is".

But because he started his club late, most of the talented girls had signed on elsewhere. So he had to take girls that frankly weren't good enough to make other teams, or were players from the bottom-feeders in previous years. We did get another quality 2nd baseman due to the fact she decided late to join a team. We have been playing her at SS with Abby at 2B. But she really doesn't like SS. Her parents started bitching about it, and me as a coach so Coach basically folded, letting this girl play short most of the time, then 2nd sometimes, moving Abby to the bench when this All Star became "available" this weekend after our aforementioned conversation. We've got a young lady at 3B that looks pretty good at practice, but is the biggest choker I've seen come game time. She quite literally has more errors than put-outs, but she has not missed a start or an inning. And it's because he remembers her from years past being better, likes the way she swings the bat, and he has little confidence in anyone else who might play the position.

This coach is absolutely enamored with hitting to the point he just doesn't see that some girls defense is so bad it's costing us games. He'll take a girl batting .250 with a sub-400 fielding % if she makes hard-hit outs and/or looks good striking out over one batting .220 with a 900+ fielding %, more runs scored, more RBI's, etc. It's like he can;t see the forest for the trees due to his bias.

When I coached, I badly mishandled the PT issue. I had a group that won so I basically sat everyone else. Problem is it was a JV team and I was too dense to even think about the consequences of my oversight. The real irony is that we would have wound up a better team if I had worked more ladies into the lineup more often. i know I won't make that same mistake again, but there are so many potential pitfalls in coaching that it's possible that I'll make a screwup that is just or bad or worse the next time I hang a whistle on my neck.

First of all no you didn't do wrong with what you were TRYING to do. I applaud your attitude about trying to have this particular discussion in another venue/setting. Not only did that NOT need to happen in front of the other parents but moreso not in front of your players. Politics in sports is one of the dumbest things there is. And sometimes winning shouldn't come at ALL COST. Had a basketball coach tell me once that us very close to me tell me once at practice only 4 players were going REALLY hard the others just going through the motions. They were preparing for a tournament which was a single elimination deal. So the coach kept telling them "you are JUST going through the motions! Pick it up!" It fell on deaf ears. As they walked out from the locker room the coach warned. Do it again and you won't like the result. The kids practiced like that ALL WEEK. So gametime was here and as the players started heading out to mid court for the tip. The coach stopped them and put in ONLY the 4 that had practiced hard. The other players were initially angry but after the coach gave them a brow beating their behavior on the sideline ceased. The parents were infuriated! But guess what lesson #1 in Coach 57's rule book and should be to ALL coaches? The name on the front is more important than the one in the back. If you want to play SHOW ME DON'T TELL ME!

I have a son who probably will be a pretty good OL in this state (Lord willing) when it is all said & done. He has all the traits & been blessed with his daddy's physical ability & size. His youth leauge coaches knew I coached & asked if I could help them with their team. Before I accepted I prayed about it and later had to speak with my son. And I told him that once we stepped on the lines of that field we were no longer father & son. I was his coach & he was my player. After many grueling practices I created a starting OL. My son just happened to be on the roster. Earlier on we struggled on offense as we had issues with playcalling & turnovers. The parents were saying the ONLY reason my kid was starting was because he was my son. We had a DT who was an absolute beast! Nobody and I mean NOBODY could block all year 1 on 1 except my son. I invited the parents to practice in stead of just dropping them off as if I was a bonafide babysitter. It was an eye opening experience for some others continued to criticise. But when it was all said & done I know I did what was best for that team whether my son was a starter or not. I had been asked to do a job and that was that. Don't listen to these guys about violence either. That shouldn't even be an option. Good luck man. Keep representing something bigger than yourself. I know my actions will be scrutinized not only because I am a coach but moreover because I live my life in favor of something greater than myself I live for Christ and He comes before me and my fever pitch of actions.

Very little pisses me off more than to be loyal and dedicated to a coach/team, then the coach happens to run into another Suzi AllStar and all of a sudden becomes best buddies with Suzi's parents. Next thing you know Suzi is "guest" playing or some bullshit. You aren't the first nor last to have that happen. It is a very sorry move and one that will undermind an entire team eventually. A coach should ride the season out and then NEXT season invite Suzi AllStar to tryout, practice and so on if you need more talent. I don't blame you. I would have done the same.