Marcus mariota

Racked up on awards (camp, maxwell, and o'brien) tonight. I can't argue it bc he's had a terrific year. I did look at his schedule though and this is what I found...

MM has faced 2 teams (stanford and Michigan state) in the top 60 total defenses.

MM has faced 3 teams (Stanford, Michigan state, and washington) in the top 60 scoring defenses.

All but aTm in the sec west is in the top 60 scoring defenses with 4 (OM, bama, lsu, and state) in the top 10.

It would interesting what dak and mm's stats looked like if they switched schedules

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Originally Posted by msstate7

Racked up on awards (camp, maxwell, and o'brien) tonight. I can't argue it bc he's had a terrific year. I did look at his schedule though and this is what I found...

MM has faced 2 teams (stanford and Michigan state) in the top 60 total defenses.

MM has faced 3 teams (Stanford, Michigan state, and washington) in the top 60 scoring defenses.

All but aTm in the sec west is in the top 60 scoring defenses with 4 (OM, bama, lsu, and state) in the top 10.

It would interesting what dak and mm's stats looked like if they switched schedules

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Probably similar to what they have now.

The PAC 12 is an offensive friendly league. Michigan St. and Stanford both had down years as well. Marriota is good, but he would have troubles in the SEC. Manziel, Tebow and Newton all struggled at times in the SEC. I don't believe he'd have the same numbers that he has now.

Mariota definitely benefited from his schedule.

This is why I have been saying they need to account for the competition in these awards. The LAC12 defenses are a joke. Even Bro could win all these awards out there.

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Originally Posted by defiantdog

The PAC 12 is an offensive friendly league. Michigan St. and Stanford both had down years as well. Marriota is good, but he would have troubles in the SEC. Manziel, Tebow and Newton all struggled at times in the SEC. I don't believe he'd have the same numbers that he has now.

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If he put up Tebow/cam/jff numbers for the #2 team in the country, he'd have won all the same awards.

Also, yards per play is a truer measure of defense in modern CFB due to the wide range of play speed where some teams runs 80+ plays/game and others barely top 60/game.

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Originally Posted by dawgs

Also, yards per play is a truer measure of defense in modern CFB due to the wide range of play speed where some teams runs 80+ plays/game and others barely top 60/game.

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Vs total defense, I agree. Scoring defense will always be the true measure though

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Originally Posted by msstate7

Racked up on awards (camp, maxwell, and o'brien) tonight. I can't argue it bc he's had a terrific year. I did look at his schedule though and this is what I found...

MM has faced 2 teams (stanford and Michigan state) in the top 60 total defenses.

MM has faced 3 teams (Stanford, Michigan state, and washington) in the top 60 scoring defenses.

All but aTm in the sec west is in the top 60 scoring defenses with 4 (OM, bama, lsu, and state) in the top 10.

It would interesting what dak and mm's stats looked like if they switched schedules

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That's a pretty awesome breakdown. That is a huge indicator to me but the voters don't see it that way. Dak could go 4000 in the air and 2000 on the ground in the pac12. L

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Originally Posted by dawgs

If he put up Tebow/cam/jff numbers for the #2 team in the country, he'd have won all the same awards.

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Maybe that's true, but it's ridiculous to simply assume he would. What logic says that it's fine to assume he'd put up the same production and win the same awards playing mostly far statistically superior defenses? Also, there's a practical example both for this instance and any other PAC/SEC comparison: Masoli. Granted he wasn't on Mariota's level, but he saw a huge decline in effectiveness after moving from the PAC to the SEC. There is far more support for the prediction that individual production would drop from the PAC to the SEC than that it would stay the same.

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Originally Posted by thf24

Maybe that's true, but it's ridiculous to simply assume he would. What logic says that it's fine to assume he'd put up the same production and win the same awards playing mostly far statistically superior defenses? Also, there's a practical example both for this instance and any other PAC/SEC comparison: Masoli. Granted he wasn't on Mariota's level, but he saw a huge decline in effectiveness after moving from the PAC to the SEC. There is far more support for the prediction that individual production would drop from the PAC to the SEC than that it would stay the same.

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Masoli wasn't in the best shape or frame of mind coming into OM. New offense. Lesser surrounding talent. Came to the program late, so didn't have time to learn the system. Lots of factors in that situation beyond "he sucked only because of sec defense".

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Originally Posted by Dallas_Dawg

That's a pretty awesome breakdown. That is a huge indicator to me but the voters don't see it that way. Dak could go 4000 in the air and 2000 on the ground in the pac12. L

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The pac 12 puts as many or more QBs in the NFL than anyone. Either Dak is the best QB in the history of CFB and is a future NFL hall of famer or someone else (like Aaron Rodgers or andrew luck) would've at least approached those yardage numbers. I'll give you a hint: dak ain't a future NFL hall of famer.

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Originally Posted by dawgs

The pac 12 puts as many or more QBs in the NFL than anyone. Either Dak is the best QB in the history of CFB and is a future NFL hall of famer or someone else (like Aaron Rodgers or andrew luck) would've at least approached those yardage numbers. I'll give you a hint: dak ain't a future NFL hall of famer.

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Nfl starting qb's from pac12:

Luck
Palmer (injured)
Foles (injured)/ Sanchez
Rodgers

Sec:

P manning
E manning
Z met (injured)
Cutler
Stafford
Newton (injured)
Manziel (just won job)

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Originally Posted by dawgs

The pac 12 puts as many or more QBs in the NFL than anyone. Either Dak is the best QB in the history of CFB and is a future NFL hall of famer or someone else (like Aaron Rodgers or andrew luck) would've at least approached those yardage numbers. I'll give you a hint: dak ain't a future NFL hall of famer.

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As a pac12 guy, you know that luck's numbers were held back by the offense he played in. If luck was in oregon's offense, his numbers would destroy mariota's imo. Luck >>>>>>>>>mariota

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Originally Posted by MSUDawg4Life

Mariota definitely benefited from his schedule.

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A lot of this crap is going to be learned by the remaining of the country in the Playoff.

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Originally Posted by msstate7

Nfl starting qb's from pac12:

Luck
Palmer (injured)
Foles (injured)/ Sanchez
Rodgers

Sec:

P manning
E manning
Z met (injured)
Cutler
Stafford
Newton (injured)
Manziel (just won job)

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And Tannehill would have been an SEC qb if he held out one more year. And don't forget about Ryan Mallet at the Texans (he did start one game this year).

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Originally Posted by msstate7

Nfl starting qb's from pac12:

Luck
Palmer (injured)
Foles (injured)/ Sanchez
Rodgers

Sec:

P manning
E manning
Z met (injured)
Cutler
Stafford
Newton (injured)
Manziel (just won job)

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Wouldn't go so far as to say Manziel won the job as Hoyer lost it. Could be infinitely wrong for sure, but no way IMO is Manziel the future at QB for the Browns or any other team, unless they don't mind losing alot

Dawgs is a Oregon fanboy. He confirms it in every thread...

Mariotta would have still been better than Dak down here IMO. The margin almost certainly would have gotten closer. Adjustedstats say that we were pretty close to them, but not quite there offensively.

That said, Mariotta has 1.5 extra years as a starter over Dak and started alot closer to excellence. We will revisit next year, when Dak has another year of passing improvement...

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Originally Posted by msstate7

Nfl starting qb's from pac12:

Luck
Palmer (injured)
Foles (injured)/ Sanchez
Rodgers

Sec:

P manning
E manning
Z met (injured)
Cutler
Stafford
Newton (injured)
Manziel (just won job)

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And I'd take every pac 12 QB over every sec QB except peyton, except stafford over foles/Sanchez, though that one epic season stafford had is getting further and further away.

It's just ludicrous to argue dak would put up 4K passing yards and 2K rushing yards against the pac 12. Some of the best QBs in the NFL and in nfl history played college ball in the pac 12 and didn't approach those numbers. Some of the best college QBs of all time played in the PAC 12 and didn't approach those numbers.

Look, you can't write off every performance in another conference as "well if they played in the sec their numbers wouldn't be good", and you can't say that every sec player "would've put up astronomical numbers in conference _____", because many of the greatest players in the NFL aren't sec guys. They went to other programs in other power conferences and they put up good numbers (probably less than y'all think sec player ____) would put up though, and they are dominating the NFL these days while many sec players aren't. There's just not going to be a huge variant of production from one power conference to the next if you could hypothetically could move a guy from conference to conference to test it out.

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Originally Posted by dawgs

And I'd take every pac 12 QB over every sec QB except peyton, except stafford over foles/Sanchez, though that one epic season stafford had is getting further and further away.

It's just ludicrous to argue dak would put up 4K passing yards and 2K rushing yards against the pac 12. Some of the best QBs in the NFL and in nfl history played college ball in the pac 12 and didn't approach those numbers. Some of the best college QBs of all time played in the PAC 12 and didn't approach those numbers.

Look, you can't write off every performance in another conference as "well if they played in the sec their numbers wouldn't be good", and you can't say that every sec player "would've put up astronomical numbers in conference _____", because many of the greatest players in the NFL aren't sec guys. They went to other programs in other power conferences and they put up good numbers (probably less than y'all think sec player ____) would put up though, and they are dominating the NFL these days while many sec players aren't. There's just not going to be a huge variant of production from one power conference to the next if you could hypothetically could move a guy from conference to conference to test it out.

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Carson Palmer hasn't done anything since winning the heisman. He's made the playoffs twice with the Bengals and now he's injuring his ego every other game and collecting a check while he watches the third string play. Even Eli has two Super Bowl rings. I'd take Msstate's list over your pac 12 fairies any day.

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Originally Posted by engie

Dawgs is a Oregon fanboy. He confirms it in every thread...

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Well I did go there after state, so I would call myself an alum. Msu is the only school I'll ever refer to as "we" and I try to make it home for a game every year, whereas I haven't cared enough to drive 100 miles down the interstate to go back for an Oregon game. I do like for oregon to do well and I follow them, but they're clearly a #2 team for me. I've also watched the PAC 12 go from being a clearly inferior conference talent-wise to drastically narrowing the gap over the last 10 years I've been paying close attention.

But I can't resist when some of the ridiculous shit is said in here about how dak wouldve have 4K passing and 2K rushing against a pac 12 schedule. It's pretty impossible to have a rational conversation about another conference with y'all 99% of the time with regards to other conferences. I'd make the same points if y'all were talking about the big 12 or ACC or big 10 this way, I just happen to be more opinionated in this specific discussion.

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Originally Posted by defiantdog

Carson Palmer hasn't done anything since winning the heisman. He's made the playoffs twice with the Bengals and now he's injuring his ego every other game and collecting a check while he watches the third string play. Even Eli has two Super Bowl rings. I'd take Msstate's list over your pac 12 fairies any day.

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He was having a good year before his knee got blown out. And if the steelers hadn't wrecked his knee the first time around, he was on his way to top 5 QB status. Eli sucks and really outside of 2 magically playoff runs, has always kinda sucked. Congrats on 2 4 games stretches of playing great ball Eli, but any competent QB is capable of putting together a good 4 games in a row (see flacco, joe).

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Originally Posted by dawgs

And I'd take every pac 12 QB over every sec QB except peyton, except stafford over foles/Sanchez, though that one epic season stafford had is getting further and further away.

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So, you cleverly worded that you'd prettymuch split it down the middle. Groundbreaking**

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It's just ludicrous to argue dak would put up 4K passing yards and 2K rushing yards against the pac 12.

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Why even address the one point that went beyond reasonable?

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Some of the best QBs in the NFL and in nfl history played college ball in the pac 12 and didn't approach those numbers. Some of the best college QBs of all time played in the PAC 12 and didn't approach those numbers.

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Someone said they didn't? Some of the best QBs in the NFL and in NFL history played college ball in the SEC too.

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Look, you can't write off every performance in another conference as "well if they played in the sec their numbers wouldn't be good", and you can't say that every sec player "would've put up astronomical numbers in conference _____", because many of the greatest players in the NFL aren't sec guys.

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Who said Mariotta's numbers wouldn't be "good" in the SEC? Dak's numbers would have been better in the Pac12 -- and Mariotta's would have been worse in the SEC. That was his whole point -- and literally everything involving statistics and common sense bears that out. How much better/worse is the question. The fact that you argue "practically nil" variation makes your opinion just as ridiculous as the guy that mentioned 6000 yards.

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They went to other programs in other power conferences and they put up good numbers (probably less than y'all think sec player ____) would put up though, and they are dominating the NFL these days while many sec players aren't.

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The conference that is pumping twice as many guys into the NFL these days has more flops? The heck you say**

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There's just not going to be a huge variant of production from one power conference to the next if you could hypothetically could move a guy from conference to conference to test it out.

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So, your ultimate argument is that all conferences are prettymuch equal. LOL.

Mariotta was better than Dak this year. Anyone arguing it is being ridiculous. But it's a fair point to say that he wasn't as much better than him as statistics would imply.

IF they manage to get past Jameis -- which is a pretty big IF -- we'll have a common opponent in Bama. We'll see if Mariotta can surpass the 372 yards Dak put on Bama @ Bama.

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Originally Posted by dawgs

And I'd take every pac 12 QB over every sec QB except peyton, except stafford over foles/Sanchez, though that one epic season stafford had is getting further and further away.

It's just ludicrous to argue dak would put up 4K passing yards and 2K rushing yards against the pac 12. Some of the best QBs in the NFL and in nfl history played college ball in the pac 12 and didn't approach those numbers. Some of the best college QBs of all time played in the PAC 12 and didn't approach those numbers.

Look, you can't write off every performance in another conference as "well if they played in the sec their numbers wouldn't be good", and you can't say that every sec player "would've put up astronomical numbers in conference _____", because many of the greatest players in the NFL aren't sec guys. They went to other programs in other power conferences and they put up good numbers (probably less than y'all think sec player ____) would put up though, and they are dominating the NFL these days while many sec players aren't. There's just not going to be a huge variant of production from one power conference to the next if you could hypothetically could move a guy from conference to conference to test it out.

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Dude, I was exaggerating on the numbers when I said 4k and 2k. Thirsty Thursday n Shit.
However, if Mariota is that much better than Dak, he will lead his team to victories over FSU and Bama and be the national champions. My money is on Bama

I'm obviously not making my point clear via an iPhone and don't feel like typing it again. I'll just say that Tebow, $cam, and jff had 3 of the most statistically ridiculous seasons for a QB in ncaa history against sec defenses. Mariota will be a better NFL QB than all of them. do you think plugging Tebow/$cam/jff in the PAC 12 would have produced numbers dwarfing what Mariota has done?

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Originally Posted by dawgs

I'm obviously not making my point clear via an iPhone and don't feel like typing it again. I'll just say that Tebow, $cam, and jff had 3 of the most statistically ridiculous seasons for a QB in ncaa history against sec defenses. Mariota will be a better NFL QB than all of them. do you think plugging Tebow/$cam/jff in the PAC 12 would have produced numbers dwarfing what Mariota has done?

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Maybe NFL QB but we are talking about what they did in college. I think Tebow, Newton, and JFF would have had better numbers if they had played in the Pac12. SEC Defenses on average are bigger and faster. NFL future has nothing to do with what you do in college hence NY Times Square Joey Harrington.

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Originally Posted by dawgs

I'm obviously not making my point clear via an iPhone and don't feel like typing it again. I'll just say that Tebow, $cam, and jff had 3 of the most statistically ridiculous seasons for a QB in ncaa history against sec defenses. Mariota will be a better NFL QB than all of them. do you think plugging Tebow/$cam/jff in the PAC 12 would have produced numbers dwarfing what Mariota has done?

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I don't know which of cam, manziel, and MM will be the best pro, but you don't either. Cam has been decent, manziel's first start is Sunday, and MM hasn't even been drafted yet. All we have to compare them so far is their time in college and I'd put MM in 3rd place. If you wanna compare them according to measurables, then MM is 2nd behind cam

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Originally Posted by dawgs

I'm obviously not making my point clear via an iPhone and don't feel like typing it again. I'll just say that Tebow, $cam, and jff had 3 of the most statistically ridiculous seasons for a QB in ncaa history against sec defenses. Mariota will be a better NFL QB than all of them. do you think plugging Tebow/$cam/jff in the PAC 12 would have produced numbers dwarfing what Mariota has done?

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You're stretching. Bigtime.

If we're going to count met and jff, in the interest of fairness, the P12 list should be amended with the following names added, without comment one way or the other in this argument:

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Originally Posted by msstate7

Nfl starting qb's from pac12:

Luck
Palmer (injured)
Foles (injured)/ Sanchez
Rodgers
Derek Anderson (about to start his 2nd game for the Panthers)
Matt Cassell (he at least started the season as the starter - got injured?)
Alex Smith (still a starting QB)
Jake Locker (lost his job b/c of injury)

Sec:

P manning
E manning
Z met (injured)
Cutler
Stafford
Newton (injured)
Manziel (just won job)

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If the Pac gets Alex Smith, the SEC gets Tannehill, Gabbert, Daniel, etc...

What kinda numbers do y'all think Tebow, $cam, and jff would've put up in the PAC 12?

Also, Mariota is a much better and more polished passer than $cam was in college, and probably better than $cam is in the NFL.