Hey Coach, Football Kwerstion......

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03-26-2014, 12:11 AM
War Machine Dawg

Hey Coach, Football Kwerstion......

You said J-Rob & Shump were on a different level than the other guys last week. Care to elaborate on how Shump looked? Did he show any potential for breakaway speed? Or was it more of the battering ram approach we saw last season where he can't get into the clear? How'd his hands look? I'm still of the opinion that he hasn't shown me the top end speed needed to be an elite SEC RB, but obviously there's still plenty of time for that to change. Just curious as to your impressions after last weekend.
03-26-2014, 06:34 AM
Saltydog

From having seen him a ton while playing in HS I'm of the opinion you're

never going to see breakaway speed from Shump. He's going to create space with his strength and physicality. He's a 4.6 kinda guy and he's not nearly as fast as Robinson and prolly not as fast as Griffin. He is however going to be a good back but just not a guy with a ton of speed. To me, he's a cross between Vic Ballard and Boobie and I'll take that all day, every day.
03-26-2014, 06:50 AM
smootness

And I don't think speed is all that crucial at RB, honestly. It's nice to have someone who can turn the corner and turn on the jets when he has the chance, but you don't have the chance to do that much in the SEC. Generally speaking, if you can break through the line, regardless of whether you're 4.4 or 4.6, it will be tough to catch you before you hit the end zone, and most of the running is done within 20 yards of the LOS.

I honestly don't think Gurley has elite speed; my guess is that he's in the high 4.5's; but he does have good acceleration and can find holes, and is just hard to tackle. If Shumpert has good balance, vision, and strength, he'll be plenty good.
03-26-2014, 07:01 AM
msstate7

Really like the transition we seem to be making. With TR and LP we weren't nearly as tough as I'd like. Dak, jrob, shump, griffin, and williams are at the physical level I want
03-26-2014, 08:32 AM
thedawg

Im pulling for Griffen.. I hope he makes big plays for us... Hes over a year out of surgery now so he should be ready to really go.
03-26-2014, 08:47 AM
Coach34

Quote:

Originally Posted by thedawg

Im pulling for Griffen.. I hope he makes big plays for us... Hes over a year out of surgery now so he should be ready to really go.

he's not on the same level as the other two
03-26-2014, 08:55 AM
Johnson85

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saltydog

To me, he's a cross between Vic Ballard and Boobie and I'll take that all day, every day.

Didn't both Vic and Boobie have break away speed?

From what I saw last year, the only thing that made Shump look impressive is that he seemed pretty damn strong for a true freshman. I don't think his stats will look as great as some other backs we'll have because I don't think he'll light up OOC competition, but I'm thinking he may not have as big of a drop off when he faces stout SEC defenses, where you pretty much have to get yards after contact if you're going to beat them.
03-26-2014, 08:59 AM
Coach34

Quote:

Originally Posted by War Machine Dawg

You said J-Rob & Shump were on a different level than the other guys last week. Care to elaborate on how Shump looked? Did he show any potential for breakaway speed? Or was it more of the battering ram approach we saw last season where he can't get into the clear? How'd his hands look? I'm still of the opinion that he hasn't shown me the top end speed needed to be an elite SEC RB, but obviously there's still plenty of time for that to change. Just curious as to your impressions after last weekend.

You have the old saying "Looks like Tarzan- plays like Jane". Well both Shump and JRob look like Tarzan and play like Tarzan. They are both really strong, good-looking RB's up close. Drills are crisp. They are physical in blocking drills. All the little things.

On the play where Goat/Real Deal is talking about JRob running over Jiles- it was a play to the outside and you could see the opening develop on the outside from where I standing (behind the Secondary)- and JRob read it perfectly and exploded into it. That's when poor Cedric Jiles had to step in and make a play- and JRob just lit his ass up. Perfect job of reading the play, and exploding into the hole for a big gain.

In group when they were working the run game- JRob and Shump look good running the plays and making cuts. We got back to running the counter and also were running the counter option. Both just look good and comfortable.

Shumpert is going to be a physical, bruiser RB. He is never going to be breakaway guy. But he also wont be pulled down with one arm by guys on D like Perkins was. So I guess we basically trade the big play here and there for fewer short gains. I just really love having the physical RB's in the run game this year
03-26-2014, 09:04 AM
War Machine Dawg

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnson85

Didn't both Vic and Boobie have break away speed?

Yes, they did. Vic moreso than Boobie. Speed definitely isn't everything for a RB, but it is an important factor. I haven't seen anything from Shump yet that makes me think if he gets into the clear that he's going to be able to pull away. He'll be hard as hell to stop in short yardage, though. I'm also a little concerned about how much he initiates contact. You aren't going to truck the Bama LBs the way you will Alcorn's LBs. As the old adage goes: "Run to daylight."
03-26-2014, 09:06 AM
War Machine Dawg

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coach34

You have the old saying "Looks like Tarzan- plays like Jane". Well both Shump and JRob look like Tarzan and play like Tarzan. They are both really strong, good-looking RB's up close. Drills are crisp. They are physical in blocking drills. All the little things.

On the play where Goat/Real Deal is talking about JRob running over Jiles- it was a play to the outside and you could see the opening develop on the outside from where I standing (behind the Secondary)- and JRob read it perfectly and exploded into it. That's when poor Cedric Jiles had to step in and make a play- and JRob just lit his ass up. Perfect job of reading the play, and exploding into the hole for a big gain.

In group when they were working the run game- JRob and Shump look good running the plays and making cuts. We got back to running the counter and also were running the counter option. Both just look good and comfortable.

Shumpert is going to be a physical, bruiser RB. He is never going to be breakaway guy. But he also wont be pulled down with one arm by guys on D like Perkins was. So I guess we basically trade the big play here and there for fewer short gains. I just really love having the physical RB's in the run game this year

Awesome. Thanks for the analysis. Definitely love that we're moving toward the power backs, too.
03-26-2014, 09:40 AM
smootness

I would be very surprised if Shumpert has any less top-end speed than Dixon. Dixon is a classic 4.6ish RB. I'd guess that Shumpert would run a legit 40 of at least 4.6 (or better) at the combine.
03-26-2014, 09:44 AM
dogshiek

Defenses are going to get tired of tackling Shump and JRob. These backs are going to look a lot faster in the second half of games. Can either of them kick a field goal??
03-26-2014, 09:50 AM
Ifyouonlyknew

Vic didn't have breakaway speed either. He ran 4.65 at the combine. What Vic had & I think Shump will show is that they both have football speed. Not blazing on a stopwatch but rarely get caught from behind on the field.
03-26-2014, 10:20 AM
Saltydog

I guess it depends on what you call breakaway speed. IMO, neither Vic or Boobie

had that. Good speed, yes. Breakaway, no. Vic ran a 4.59 at the combine. Dixon ran a 4.67. That's not break away speed IMO but they produced big time for us and in the end that's all that matters. Just for fodder, here's the NFL scouting report on Dixon and Ballard prior to the draft:

Analysis - Dixon
Strengths:

Dixon is a big, bruising running back who was highly productive against premier competition in college. Displays the necessary power to consistently break tackles. Exhibits impressive balance on contact and is rarely brought down by the first tackler. Shows nice foot agility for a big, power back.

Weaknesses

His top end speed to be a threat on the perimeter or explode for long gainers up the middle is dubious. Must improve his ball security as he?s shown he will put the ball on the ground at times. Struggles getting to the outside.

Analysis - Ballard
Strengths

Ballard is a very instinctive runner. He has a natural ability to sift through defenders in the backfield and shows good burst after he's broken through the line. He is a good runner and has deceptive juke moves that he will use on bigger players. Ballard carries the ball high and tight and is conscious of oncoming traffic, making him dependable inside. He is a big body, willing to block oncoming linebackers in pass protection. He also understands how to work upfield for the first down after catching the ball, making him a good check-down option in the pass game. Ballard is a willing special-teams player who seeks contact and likes to fly around.

Weaknesses

Ballard is not what one would call a quick-twitch athlete. He is big but doesn't run with a ton of power; bigger linebackers often bring him down on first contact. He is instinctive inside and while carrying the ball in the flats, but he is not fast enough to get to the edge on his own. He is natural between the tackles but can look like a deer in headlights in the open field.
03-26-2014, 11:04 AM
tcdog70

Emmett Smith ran a 4.6 to 4.7 . A lot of speed backs can't get past the line of scrimmage. Perk was faster than Vic, but Vic never got caught once he broke it. It seems Like perk got caught a lot. Football speed vs Track speed.
03-26-2014, 11:26 AM
War Machine Dawg

Quote:

Originally Posted by dogshiek

Defenses are going to get tired of tackling Shump and JRob. These backs are going to look a lot faster in the second half of games.

No doubt, they're definitely the kind of power RB that will wear on a D and get stronger as the game goes on. But we've seen JRob has that extra gear once he gets into the open field. Shump can definitely be a big factor for us, though, especially in short yardage.

My biggest concern with Shump is something that Mullen himself said last year. I think he likes contact a little too much. It seems like he's always looking for a defender to truck and seeks out contact instead of running to the open space. I think he needs to learn that you can be a supremely physical RB without having to run over someone every time you have the ball. Initiate contact when the defender gets to you, but don't seek out defenders to run over needlessly. If he can improve in that area, he'll be an extremely good RB and save himself a lot of future injuries.
03-26-2014, 11:29 AM
smootness

Quote:

Originally Posted by War Machine Dawg

My biggest concern with Shump is something that Mullen himself said last year. I think he likes contact a little too much. It seems like he's always looking for a defender to truck and seeks out contact instead of running to the open space. I think he needs to learn that you can be a supremely physical RB without having to run over someone every time you have the ball. Initiate contact when the defender gets to you, but don't seek out defenders to run over needlessly. If he can improve in that area, he'll be an extremely good RB and save himself a lot of future injuries.

Agreed, but it's far better than the alternative. I'd rather teach a RB to try to avoid contact more rather than having to teach one not to be afraid of it.
03-26-2014, 11:31 AM
Bullmutt

Shades of Earl Campbell! Took him a couple of years in the NFL to learn you're better off "running where they ain't". Anybody know what his forty time was?
03-26-2014, 11:33 AM
War Machine Dawg

Quote:

Originally Posted by smootness

Agreed, but it's far better than the alternative. I'd rather teach a RB to try to avoid contact more rather than having to teach one not to be afraid of it.

Totally agree about that. Much like hurt players stay hurt, soft players stay soft. It's definitely easier to teach a physical player how to be smarter about contact than try to make a soft player tough.
03-26-2014, 11:42 AM
Johnson85

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saltydog

had that. Good speed, yes. Breakaway, no. Vic ran a 4.59 at the combine. Dixon ran a 4.67. That's not break away speed IMO but they produced big time for us and in the end that's all that matters.

Vic and Boobie both had the ability to break big runs and weren't going to be caught from behind except by the freak athletes (at least at the college level). That's why I say they have 'break away' speed although in a different context (say comparing them to Norwood), I would probably say they didn't have it.

Shumpert to me looked like he would be a lot less likely to break the big runs than Vic or Boobie, but I don't remember a specific play where he had a six yard run that I thought Vic or Boobie would have taken for 25 or 30. He just didn't look that fast in the limited times I saw him. Or course there were plenty of runs where Perkins didn't look very fast, either because the play required patience to develop or he was just being to tentative, so I wouldn't bet much money on how fast I think Shump is based on the limited times I saw him run as a true freshman.
03-26-2014, 12:11 PM
maroonmania

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ifyouonlyknew

Vic didn't have breakaway speed either. He ran 4.65 at the combine. What Vic had & I think Shump will show is that they both have football speed. Not blazing on a stopwatch but rarely get caught from behind on the field.

Ballard is one of the fastest backs we've ever had, I don't really care what a stopwatch says. Apparently when he put on pads and was carrying a football he didn't lose even a split second of speed that he had. I say that because he never got run down from behind. It was almost silly watching WF guys trying to run him down in the MCB in Vic's last game. Couldn't catch him. Most of our other RBs we've had I've seen get run down. Heck, Perk got run down from behind repeatedly over the years.
03-26-2014, 12:58 PM
Irondawg

Coach - what were your impressions of Holloway at RB?
03-26-2014, 01:10 PM
Pollodawg

Quote:

Originally Posted by Irondawg

Coach - what were your impressions of Holloway at RB?

I am not coach, but I'll give you my humble opinion: I really wish he could have gotten it down at WR or KR/PR. Unless he learns how to catch he won't give us the dimension Perk did or lining up in the slot. He'll bulk up, lose a step, and won't be able to get yards between the tackles because even with the bulk, he won't have the strength.
03-26-2014, 01:16 PM
Coach34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Irondawg

Coach - what were your impressions of Holloway at RB?

He's quick but he's a little bitty shit. He won't be anything more than specialty plays and a few pass plays out of the backfield. He works hard and gets after it though.
03-26-2014, 01:34 PM
smootness

Holloway won't be a 'RB' for us, so I think the concerns over him bulking up are off-base.

He's technically being moved to RB, but I would be shocked if he ever lines up in the backfield as the sole RB. I think we'll see him some in the diamond formation just to give the defense something extra to think about. If we ran the diamond with Robinson, Shumpert, and Holloway, his mere presence helps us out there because they have to use somebody with speed to cover him in case he runs any kind of pattern. And we'll probably run a sweep here and there with him, a la Percy Harvin.

But he'll never be a true RB.
03-26-2014, 01:35 PM
maroonmania

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coach34

He's quick but he's a little bitty shit. He won't be anything more than specialty plays and a few pass plays out of the backfield. He works hard and gets after it though.

Well let's be honest, if he had his speed at a bigger size, he would have been a recruit in MUCH higher demand by other schools.
03-26-2014, 01:40 PM
Pollodawg

Quote:

Originally Posted by smootness

Holloway won't be a 'RB' for us, so I think the concerns over him bulking up are off-base.

He's technically being moved to RB, but I would be shocked if he ever lines up in the backfield as the sole RB. I think we'll see him some in the diamond formation just to give the defense something extra to think about. If we ran the diamond with Robinson, Shumpert, and Holloway, his mere presence helps us out there because they have to use somebody with speed to cover him in case he runs any kind of pattern. And we'll probably run a sweep here and there with him, a la Percy Harvin.

But he'll never be a true RB.

This is probably true. I hope he doesn't get much bigger than he is because his speed is his greatest asset. I would like to see him in the options and sweeps where we he can really use his elusiveness and footwork to max effect.
03-26-2014, 01:42 PM
Pollodawg

And as far as RBs with speed go, Dixon wasn't really "fast" by a lot of standards, but he was durable and strong as a bull elephant. I'll take somebody like Shump on the goal line every day because he's gonna drag folks with him.
03-26-2014, 08:23 PM
Todd4State

If it were me, I'd just let Holloway return kicks for us and focus on that. I think he would be pretty darn good at it.
03-27-2014, 01:56 AM
Barking 13

as long as either (or both) of them pulls 5+ ypc, I'll be happy
03-27-2014, 12:36 PM
Coach 57

Don't forget about A train. I know he'll be a true freshman but he is a LOAD to bring down too. I would rather have a back in this system that you can run a TRUE read option with between A & B gaps rather than the zone stretch. It keeps your QB from getting blasted by DTs or MLBs rather than safeties, CBs or OLBs if he keeps. The RBs like Shump, JRob, Nick or Williams will be bruising the MLBs with physicality or if the safety comes down in the box he'll pay dearly for it. Man I'm ready for football!
03-27-2014, 03:44 PM
War Machine Dawg

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coach 57

Don't forget about A train. I know he'll be a true freshman but he is a LOAD to bring down too. I would rather have a back in this system that you can run a TRUE read option with between A & B gaps rather than the zone stretch. It keeps your QB from getting blasted by DTs or MLBs rather than safeties, CBs or OLBs if he keeps. The RBs like Shump, JRob, Nick or Williams will be bruising the MLBs with physicality or if the safety comes down in the box he'll pay dearly for it. Man I'm ready for football!

Bwahahaha, I love it when C57 chimes in!!! Good stuff, as usual. I expect A-Train to pass Griffin for the 3rd RB role this fall. It's why I've been clamoring for 7 to move to FB, when combined with the obvious after effects of two knee injuries. Still hoping I can make it down to a practice in Starkville before SBW, as I want to see these guys myself.