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If Rick Ray loses out, that would be 14 games in a row we have lost. Has there ever been a coach in the BCS conferences to lose 14 straight to finish out a season and be retained? I know our situation wasn't great but there have been situations much worse over the years. I don't see how you can keep a coach and sell season tickets with 14 losses in a row to finish a season.
The beast has awoken...I'll get my popcorn.
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-_IAWdoIpq-...popcorn+rg.gif
We will only do one of those next season more than likely.*Quote:
Originally Posted by RICKRAYMADE
you can keep a coach after that. you just can't keep a coach and sell tickets.
Tom Crean went 1-17 at Indiana his 1st season....and yes I know they were on probation- that's how our AD views our program with us having 1 player- ONE- leftover from the previous regime.Quote:
Originally Posted by RICKRAYMADE
Ray gone get 4 years bruh
Yep, Rick Ray has yet to win even ONE game in the month of February during his HC tenure at MSU.
TCU which beat us in the Hump is 0-15 in the Big12 right now.
Problem for Ray is he's shown no sign he can recruit, instate, out of state or around the world. I lived through the bellard, boyd era, brilliant coaching minds, and horrible recruiters. Can't win without players. In fairness to them msu has never been an easy place to recruit, even Ron Polk will tell you that.
Coach :How long is Ray' contract and are we still paying Stansbury?Quote:
Originally Posted by Coach34
tom crean went to a final 4, 5 ncaa tourneys, and 3 NITs in 9 seasons at marquette before getting to indiana. he definitely had earned a bit more benefit of the doubt than a guy that's never been a HC and was never considered a top assistant before we hired him.Quote:
Originally Posted by Coach34
i'm not saying ray won't get at least 1 more year, and probably 2 more, but i am saying comparing him to someone like tom crean is a very, very poor comparison because crean had a good track record before taking the indiana job. kinda like the cohen comparisons you are hell bent on making in other threads.
But no one is comparing Ray to Crean. No one is saying, 'Guys chill, he's just like Tom Crean'. Crean isn't a good coach because he struggled initially at Indiana.Quote:
Originally Posted by dawgs
But the point is, even a really good coach like Tom Crean struggled really badly when he inherited a terrible situation. That doesn't mean ray is a really good coach, it just means that he inherited a terrible situation so we need to be patient to find out what kind of coach he truly is because even a really good coach in a situation like that is going to struggle. So there's a chance he is a really good coach still digging himself out of an awful situation.
And to the OP, there have not been a whole lot of situations much worse than ours was when Ray got here. Claiming our situation 'wasn't great' is a classic attempt to downplay our problems in order to make the coach look worse.
The only guys left from Stans' last team, a team that exited the NIT in the 1st round, entering last year were Jalen Steele, Wendell Lewis, and Roquez Johnson...two role players (and Lewis hardly ever played the year prior) and one guy who never played. He also inherited a decent recruiting class but one that was woefully short on numbers considering the number of spots he needed to fill.
We had 5-6 scholarship players at times last year...and essentially no real walk-ons to speak of. One walk-on contributed a ton last year, and that walk-on was the towel boy from the year before, the guy who played so poorly when he finally got scrub minutes that the entire team was laughing their heads off. That is the guy that sometimes played 20+ minutes for us last year.
That is an unquestionably awful situation.
Another problem with recruiting is that the talent level in the state hasn't been there the past few years like it normally was. Only been a couple kids from the state each year that were highly recruited. 2015 class best player going to UK and we are getting 2 of the other top players.
When our EX coach took over there was a lot of talent in the state. And we got most if not basically all of them. Much easier to recruit kids from your own state.. It takes a time to bring in players outside of Mississippi to come here.
Too bad we missed out on one of the best a few years ago in Summers... We overlooked him.
RR does have to recruit better. Everyone can agree on that. We will have a full roster next year. If next years team doesn't make a push at the NIT then the leash on RR will be getting very tight.. But he has only been here 19 months...
by bringing up tom crean without acknowledging the differences in the 2 coaches' track records is directly comparing the 2.Quote:
Originally Posted by smootness
I shouldnt have had to explain this- but thank you for doing it.Quote:
Originally Posted by smootness
Yep. Anyone that misunderstands the analogies and comparisons is pushing an agenda so hard that common sense has left their building. Makes the topic almost impossible to discuss with them on any level whatsoever. And we've got a bunch of them...Quote:
Originally Posted by Coach34
I've always viewed this hire as a "bridge hire" to bigger and better things. We need talent, stability, work ethic, and excitement for the program to take the next step. Right now we're 1 for 4 in those departments. If we can get 2 of 4 next season it'll help, but 3 of 4 would be preferable.
How many of those "departments" do you see this program excelling within next season?
No, it isn't. It's saying, 'Look what happened when a really good coach took over a dumpster fire. So there's no way to know yet how good Ray is.'Quote:
Originally Posted by dawgs
There is a distinct difference between that and, 'Crean had a tough time, too, so Ray = Crean'.
Richard Williams went 7-21 his 1st season when he took over this awful program. He and John Brady went out and recruited a large group of freshmen that offseason that led us to an SEC title in Williams 5th year. Williams last went to a Sweet 16 and then to a FF with the help of recruiter Rick Standsbury.Quote:
Originally Posted by dawgs
Rob Evans took over a terrible Ole Miss program in 1993. It was his 1st HC gig. He went 10-18, 14-13, 8-19, and 12-15 in his first 4 seasons. He then led them to back to back NCAA Tourney appearances and had left a foundation for Rod Barnes who inherited a golden situation from which he reaped early rewards.
You ****ers keep acting like coaches are coming into the SEC and turning programs around immediately when in reality almost nobody is. You cany honestly count Kentucky- they are not like everyone else. This Stansbury Lover myth that it only takes a couple of players to turn a basketball program around isnt being proven anywhere. So the only coach to come in the league and make a big impact in recent memory was Bruce Pearl- and we saw what happened there. But even with that- Peterson left Pearl Chris Lofton, CJ Watson, Major Wingate, and Andre Patterson...all very good SEC players. What very good SEC player was Ray left with? And dont give me the Hood shit- he was already out there door and had feelers out for transferring since February.
We'll learn what Ray is about the next 2 seasons
Not sure, but our 2010 baseball team finished the year 3-16 after beat Tennessee on Super Bulldog Weekend and Alcorn, starting with the Alabama series. Swept by Bama, Ole Miss, Auburn and Vanderbilt all in a row. Also included losses to Jackson State and USM. This basketball season is going similarly, honestly, and many people are drawing parallels to that year. Of course, the Ray-haters are choosing not to see this obvious comparison, but I digress.
At the end of the day, at least the baseball team scored a win over USM and LSU to end that year. It helped springboard us into the following year. That's all I really want Ray to do, just win something here at the end, even if it's just South Carolina. One more besides that would give us hope for next year.
i'm not a ray hater, i'm just saying that you have to understand why people have a shorter leash with ray than they did with cohen. or than indiana fans had with crean. and despite their proven track records, they both had plenty of detractors after early struggles at their new gigs. so if you can't grasp why fans would really start questioning ray's chances of success right now, then you have your own agenda you are pushing.
and please don't call me a standsbury lover, mmmkay. it's possible to not be a stansbury lover and question ray as the future of our program. they are not mutually exclusive opinions.
Good post ,Ray's and Richard Williams situation is almost alike as far as talent ,yea I want to win now but it not going to happen .Next year is Ray's first full roster let it play out . Besides if we let him go now we would paying 3 coaches and starting over again. Next year could be Ray's tipping point either way.Quote:
Originally Posted by Coach34
I don't see any problem in saying, 'I personally don't believe Ray will turn it around,' or, 'I question whether Ray is the guy'. I don't blame anyone for not 100% believing in Ray to turn it around.Quote:
Originally Posted by dawgs
What I don't understand, based on other situations at other schools or other programs at State, is anyone saying, 'Ray is terrible and won't ever get it done' based on what has happened so far.
The reason to make the comparison to Crean or Cohen is to say that if the situation is bad enough, it doesn't matter who you hire. I tend to believe that no matter who we hired, the first 2 years were going to be really bad. We actually did better than I think anyone could have reasonably expected last year. So why make a judgement one way or the other yet? We still have to give it time to play out. We shouldn't fire him after 2 years just because he didn't have a track record.
And there were plenty of people who gave Cohen no leash at all despite his previous success.
the whole thing is about people trusting the HC to lead us out of the wilderness. due to his previous success crean was more trusted to lead indiana out of the wilderness. because ray has no track record, it's hard to trust him. it takes a leap of faith with no actual evidence of success to support your belief in him.Quote:
Originally Posted by smootness
i think most people are just looking for moderate signs of improvement, but we don't see it in the on court performance, in the W/L columns, in recruiting. and when you couple that with the lack of track record, you have people wanting something they can believe in.Quote:
Originally Posted by smootness
I only wish the late, great John McKay was still around to summarize our basketball situation. Something like:
Ray hasn't really gotten players with any size, but they make up for it by not being able to shoot.
in fact, i'd say ray's inability to make any waves on the recruiting trail is what's got most everyone worried right now. and i know he was brought in to "recruit differently" (so spare me the talk C34), but we have to sign major conference caliber recruits if we want to compete and we aren't doing that. and there aren't any on the horizon either. it's hard to sell the fanbase on the future when anyone with the internet can see the future doesn't look all that bright either based on the players we are bringing in compared to our peers.Quote:
Originally Posted by dawgs
Translate this tangibly for me. Nobody GAF what a coach did at their previous gigs when they are failing at their current one. Didn't buy countless SEC coaches any extra time in basketball. When they were done, they were done. Need I start going through the names of all the guys that have failed in the SEC in the past 5 years? It's CHOCK FULL of guys that won big at prior stops. And how often did their "track record" earn them more time? Rarely. If ever.Quote:
Originally Posted by dawgs
Having a "shorter leash" on Ray is a bullshit approach in the first place that shows bias against him and sabotage to his chances for success here. Having a "shorter leash" means those same people are basically expecting RAY to be BETTER THAN COHEN AND CREAN. Do you not see that? People expect him to turn around a similar circumstance more quickly = expecting him to be better. Nevermind that he's a first time head coach that's learning on the job where logical people feel that mistakes are to be expected. So, in giving him a "shorter leash", you've basically asked him to be John Wooden. Because you've asked him to be light years better than the 2 previously-mentioned coaches that have played in national title series.
Do you REALLY think Cohen had any different leash than Raffo would have had? Really? Because if you do, that would imply that you think we would have fired Raffo after the struggle in year 2 -- something that WOULD NOT have happened. He would have gotten year 3 to earn his stripes in the exact same way Cohen did -- and the exact same way Ray will. Seems to me that the "leashes" were consistent all along.
And the point is that those fans were idiots. And the ones with their minds made up right now fall into the same category. There is no reason to "start questioning" Ray at this juncture. All that does is make an impossible situation even tougher. Year 3 -- Stansbury standards and expectations. Logic implies that we can start questioning him then -- when he's had a fair shake.Quote:
and despite their proven track records, they both had plenty of detractors after early struggles at their new gigs. so if you can't grasp why fans would really start questioning ray's chances of success right now, then you have your own agenda you are pushing.
look, he's not going to be fired this year. but if you can't grasp the reasoning behind a lot of the fanbase getting antsy, then you have your ****ing head in the sand. i'm not saying he's going to get fired, i'm saying that berating people for not having the blind faith you and C34 have is refusing to acknowledge that yall are taking a leap of faith while the rest of us are taking a more skeptical approach.Quote:
Originally Posted by engie
I'd say the fact that we're competing in most games rather than merely rolling over is a modest sign of improvement. Not saying this train will get us there, but I do want Ray to get credit for the team competing to win, and I do think that's better than last season.Quote:
Originally Posted by dawgs
Go look at our actual signees/commitments and their offer lists and get back to me. Not nearly as bad as the anti-Ray crowd would have people believe. But they weren't 5*s!!Quote:
Originally Posted by dawgs
How many 5*s does our boy Marshall have over at Wichita St right now? Classes on campus(ranking):
2013 - a 2* and a NR
2012 - a 3* and one 4*
2011 - 4 NRs and a 2*
2010 - none
2009 - 2 2*
In other words -- between 1 and 3 fewer than we currently have at MSU. Undefeated and off a Final 4.
Link me to any "blind faith" please? All I've ever said is that it's ****ing stupid to judge him on what's happened thusfar.Quote:
Originally Posted by dawgs
Our fanbase is impatient idiots. Sorry that you apparently fall into the same category. But I'll keep my head in the sand -- you keep yours up your ass.
Honest question:
Do you think we would be at least 3-4 games better if we Steele and Lewis this year? I do. A decent shooter and another post player would have done wonders for this team. So at worst- we would be 16-11 right now heading down the stretch. Would you feel better then?
If so- you need to realize that that wouldnt make Ray any better of a coach- it would just mean that Lewis isnt an idiot that smoked his way out of college and Steele wasnt a selfish dick that turned his back on his school and team his last season.
http://espn.go.com/mens-college-bask...state-bulldogsQuote:
Originally Posted by drunkernhelldawg
outside of florida and arkansas, what Ls against even bad teams like tcu and auburn and the glut of mediocre sec teams (ole miss, lsu, a&m, etc) have we really been all that "competitive" in? maybe we are losing by less double digits than expected, but to say we are being competitive against the majority of our schedule is pretty misleading imo.
we are ranked 72nd with an 84something avg player rating on 247. rivals doesn't give class rankings that low. also, 247 brings up our composite avg, so i can't imagine things would look prettier should rivals go that deep. we're signing other programs' 4th or 5th options as the centerpieces of our class.Quote:
Originally Posted by engie
Ray has a pass with me this year. He needs players, biggest problem by far. I haven't seen us on CNN for fighting in the stands either.
you have to see at least why some fans are questioning ray. you have to understand that right? i mean, even his most ardent supporters surely can understand why some people are getting fed up already and not willing to give him the benefit of the doubt, right?Quote:
Originally Posted by engie
Quote:
Originally Posted by dawgs
dawgs, you will never get those with an agenda to understand you. It's not in their best interest.
see this is a common sentiment among the more vocal pro-ray. if we set the bar so low that anything better than team fights in the bleachers is a success, then we'll never go anywhere. i think too many of our fans have the bad taste of sidney and ravern and others lingering in their mouth and so any player that's talented is automatically associated with those head cases, so they are ok recruiting "differently" because it means we aren't getting those kinda guys. but the reality is there's plenty of 4+* talent out there that aren't head cases and work hard. it's ok to go get those guys and play the AAU game to get them, and they turn out to be good representatives of the university.Quote:
Originally Posted by slickdawg
I dont have blind faith and dont know that he can recruit well enough to make it. But that's why I say "let it play out"Quote:
Originally Posted by dawgs
I do like the discipline
I do like new S&C work we put in
I like that fact that our motion offense has actual motion in it. We dont stand around just tossing up 3-balls vs a zone- we work hard to penetrate and find creases to break it down.
So those things are extreme improvements over the previous regime.
Now then:
I dont like the lack of depth, rebounding, poor shooting, and poor passes we make. But some of this will correct itself thru another year of maturity and having a full roster- some of it will need to be fixed thru better coaching
We'll see what next year brings us
imo, those things had gotten so bad, that hiring me as the HC would have been an improvement in those areas. so while it's commendable that ray is doing better than stans the last few years in those areas, there literally was nowhere to go but up.Quote:
Originally Posted by Coach34