Big Picture for MSU Football

1. Our offense is actually pretty good. We're averaging 31.5 PPG going into the Egg Bowl. That's similar to Dan in 2016 and 2017. In SEC play, we are tied with Alabama for 7th in the league at 26.9 PPG in SEC games only. We're doing that with a brutal schedule, basically no offensive line aside from Albert Reese, and a QB that PFF doesn't like. What's going to happen when KT is ready and we actually have an offensive line and an easier schedule? Now, if we hire an OC or an assistant head coach to help Lebby, I can run with that. Get Joe Jon Finley and let's go.

2. Our defense was doing OK and looked improved until the last 2-3 weeks or so ago. Right now we are last in the SEC in PPG allowed in SEC games only. As you all know I am very patient and more than fair with coaches but it's time to make some changes here. Like the entire staff. I don't want any of them back. If we bring in a new defensive staff to go along with an OC, I can run with that for next year as long as it's a quality DC. Could be Durkin, Ron Roberts, or anyone that is good.

3. Cliff Odom. Bye. I actually think special teams is the worst unit of the three. Lebby needs to go out and get a legit ST coach.

4. Continue to build NIL and bring in better players and we should be good.

As the Mandalorian says- This is the way.

Spot on Todd. Agree with everything.

We are one missed field goal and two roughing the passer penalties from being 8-3 right now. That is with a below average OL and DL.

Yes, Lebby has made some boneheaded decisions but we had some players make some costly blunders that had nothing to do with coaching.

Poach Ole miss Oline when Lane leaves.

Nice post. Agree with it all.

Imagine what our offense could look like with an average O Line. It would be one of the best in the country.

Defense use to be what our team was built on. I would love to get back to those days. Just mean, aggressive, and looking for contact. Hutlzer ha to go. Last year was our red flag but I understand why we kept him.

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Originally Posted by TrapGame

Spot on Todd. Agree with everything.

We are one missed field goal and two roughing the passer penalties from being 8-3 right now. That is with a below average OL and DL.

Yes, Lebby has made some boneheaded decisions but we had some players make some costly blunders that had nothing to do with coaching.

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All that tells me is that all the dooming is overblown, and with a competent coach we'll still be able to compete. Florida and Texas spent way more money than us, and the vast majority of FBS coaches would have beaten both if they'd coached us this year.

Hoping we prioritize offensive line spending. KT, Fluff, and AE3 with a competent OL unit will get us to the promise land.

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Originally Posted by Cowbeller

Hoping we prioritize offensive line spending. KT, Fluff, and AE3 with a competent OL unit will get us to the promise land.

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Pay for an above average DL and OL with some quality depth and we will look a completely different team next year.

Sniff sniff…..optimism? I forgot what it smelled like.

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Originally Posted by TrapGame

Pay for an above average DL and OL with some quality depth and we will look a completely different team next year.

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We need to go out and find a LEGIT LT and find at least two more OL pieces. We also are going to have to replace Brenen and need someone with real speed to do that. Other than that we'll need either a legit veteran P4 QB or a high level backup, depending on how Kamario looks and how the staff feels about where he's at developmentally. Then we need to pour everything else into Defense. You're looking at a cost of around probably somewhere between 7-9 mil to procur that talent and then you're looking at probably 13-17 to keep our current roster in tact. Kamario will potentially be bumped well over a mil, Fluff will get a nice bump, I imagine Ant will be mid 6 figures, Issac won't be cheap if he decides to return. All in total we're probably looking at 20-26 mil to bring in what we need to take that next step.

One other thing to note- a new defensive staff could bring some of their players with them potentially. Welcome to the portal era!

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Originally Posted by Quaoarsking

All that tells me is that all the dooming is overblown, and with a competent coach we'll still be able to compete. Florida and Texas spent way more money than us, and the vast majority of FBS coaches would have beaten both if they'd coached us this year.

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Dude- we are not firing Lebby. It's not even being considered. You are so far away from where the decision-makers are its hilarious. He will probably get extended after the season because of the progress we made this season. This is how far off you are right now

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Originally Posted by Coach34

Dude- we are not firing Lebby. It's not even being considered. You are so far away from where the decision-makers are its hilarious. He will probably get extended after the season because of the progress we made this season. This is how far off you are right now

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I've posted "we're not firing Lebby" so many times over this past month. Try to keep up. I am very aware that we're going to do what Auburn, Florida, and Arkansas did last year and give our lame duck 1 more year to keep sucking and then fire him after another losing record next year. It is what it is, sadly.

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Originally Posted by StarkVegasSteve

We need to go out and find a LEGIT LT and find at least two more OL pieces. We also are going to have to replace Brenen and need someone with real speed to do that. Other than that we'll need either a legit veteran P4 QB or a high level backup, depending on how Kamario looks and how the staff feels about where he's at developmentally. Then we need to pour everything else into Defense. You're looking at a cost of around probably somewhere between 7-9 mil to procur that talent and then you're looking at probably 13-17 to keep our current roster in tact. Kamario will potentially be bumped well over a mil, Fluff will get a nice bump, I imagine Ant will be mid 6 figures, Issac won't be cheap if he decides to return. All in total we're probably looking at 20-26 mil to bring in what we need to take that next step.

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That’s the party that concerns me. Will we even be anywhere near that?

Here is what you are missing- he's not remotely even being considered to be a lame duck. Lots of people are happy with the program making progress. Most consider this season a success.

When you spend at the bottom of the SEC- and have this kind of year- its encouraging.

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Originally Posted by Coach34

Here is what you are missing- he's not remotely even being considered to be a lame duck. Lots of people are happy with the program making progress. Most consider this season a success.

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Two years ago you were sucking off Arnett until the morning we fired him, insisting that we probably weren't firing him, that the boosters were happy, and that in the unlikely event we did consider a change, it would definitely be after the season.

Excuse me for not thinking you're well plugged in to what the real power brokers think.

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Originally Posted by Quaoarsking

Two years ago you were sucking off Arnett until the morning we fired him, insisting that we probably weren't firing him, that the boosters were happy, and that in the unlikely event we did consider a change, it would definitely be after the season.

Excuse me for not thinking you're well plugged in to what the real power brokers think.

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I thought you said you were going to shut up after the Arkansas win.

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Originally Posted by Brobi-wan

That’s the party that concerns me. Will we even be anywhere near that?

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That's where the buy in has to happen. It's why an Egg Bowl win would do wonders. You could probably raise 2-3 mil on the day alone, and I'm probably being conservative on that number. There's some big money people that care WAY MORE about beating Ole Miss than they should. But that could work to our advantage that day.

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Originally Posted by Quaoarsking

Two years ago you were sucking off Arnett until the morning we fired him, insisting that we probably weren't firing him, that the boosters were happy, and that in the unlikely event we did consider a change, it would definitely be after the season.

Excuse me for not thinking you're well plugged in to what the real power brokers think.

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Thats not even close to being true. I just thought we would wait till the end of the year to fire him. I enjoyed Arnett way more than watching the Airbone week after week. We could have run the wishbone and I would have enjoyed it more. I love Metallica- hate Nothing Else Matters. 5FDP is my favorite modern band- cant stand Death Punch Therapy

What I am saying is that its not my opinion on this- people with real money arent considering firing Lebby and see the progress we have made. He will only be in trouble next year if he doesnt get in a bowl game- as he should be in Y3

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Originally Posted by Coach34

Thats not even close to being true. I just thought we would wait till the end of the year to fire him. I enjoyed Arnett way more than watching the Airbone week after week. We could have run the wishbone and I would have enjoyed it more. I love Metallica- hate Nothing Else Matters. 5FDP is my favorite modern band- cant stand Death Punch Therapy

What I am saying is that its not my opinion on this- people with real money arent considering firing Lebby and see the progress we have made. He will only be in trouble next year if he doesnt get in a bowl game- as he should be in Y3

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That last statement is 100% the truth. The big money people (McKinnis, Howard, Rula, Seal, Clark, Cleveland, etc) are not even remotely considering pulling the plug. I think they will push for staff changes, but overall changes in the head chair are not happening.

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Originally Posted by StarkVegasSteve

That last statement is 100% the truth. The big money people (McKinnis, Howard, Rula, Seal, Clark, Cleveland, etc) are not even remotely considering pulling the plug. I think they will push for staff changes, but overall changes in the head chair are not happening.

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And again big picture here. If we had fired Hutzler after we went 2-10 I think it would have been more difficult to attract a legit DC here. And especially last year with so little coaching movement. There are going to be some really quality DC potentially available this cycle like Durkin, Golding, Ron Roberts, etc.

I think we also need to see what Joe Judge can do as the head coach of a college program. My hope is that he ends up somewhere like Tulane or Memphis. I want to see what his staff looks like. Is he going to hire Freddie Kitchens or is he going to hire someone like Mack Leftwich? How does he handle the portal and high school recruiting?

That way if Lebby flames out next year we know what we would be getting with Judge. And if Lebby does well he is going to get hired away in a few years and we'll still know what we have in Judge as well. Win/Win.

Agree with everything you have said.

Special teams is a 100% loss yardage and opportunity for us. We never try to get a return. We put a RB to return? Why would we do that? You telling me one of our freshman receivers can?t return kicks? Is he the only one that can catch a kickoff? He?ll, even when he catches it outside the endzone he takes a faircatch. To me that is indicative of our entire team. I like our punter, but he isn?t getting the height others in the SEC gets.

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Originally Posted by Coach34

What I am saying is that its not my opinion on this- people with real money arent considering firing Lebby and see the progress we have made. He will only be in trouble next year if he doesnt get in a bowl game- as he should be in Y3

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And here we go again! You talk to a Lebby defender long enough and it turns out that they all basically agree with me. Lebby (assuming we lose the Egg Bowl) is on the hot seat as of the start of 2026 and will likely be fired if he doesn't make a bowl.

I mean, I want Arnett back as a DC. Dude was good.

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Originally Posted by archdog

I mean, I want Arnett back as a DC. Dude was good.

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Yeah I can be happy with that hire too.

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Originally Posted by archdog

I mean, I want Arnett back as a DC. Dude was good.

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Originally Posted by Maroon Glasses

Yeah I can be happy with that hire too.

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WTF? He's a BIG reason for the mess we're in especially on defense among other things.

And he wasn't that good anyway.

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Originally Posted by Todd4State

WTF? He's a BIG reason for the mess we're in especially on defense among other things.

And he wasn't that good anyway.

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I thought he was a good DC. Just my opinion. If I remember correctly we were top 5 in total defense in '20 and '21. When he came in '19 we were bottom of the league.

Edited to add: With being able to completely flip a roster in 1-2 years time and guys getting for the portal, I dont understand how coaches ir assistants that have been gone for 2+ years are still getting blamed for what's happening now. I couldn't give you an exact number but I'm sure most guys if not all that Arnett recruited are probably gone. I even see people still blaming Leach and that's crazy to me.

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Originally Posted by Coach34

Thats not even close to being true. I just thought we would wait till the end of the year to fire him. I enjoyed Arnett way more than watching the Airbone week after week. We could have run the wishbone and I would have enjoyed it more. I love Metallica- hate Nothing Else Matters. 5FDP is my favorite modern band- cant stand Death Punch Therapy

What I am saying is that its not my opinion on this- people with real money arent considering firing Lebby and see the progress we have made. He will only be in trouble next year if he doesnt get in a bowl game- as he should be in Y3

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What is really happening doesn't matter with that one. He has a real hate for the guy and has from the jump.

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Originally Posted by Maroon Glasses

I thought he was a good DC. Just my opinion. If I remember correctly we were top 5 in total defense in '20 and '21. When he came in '19 we were bottom of the league.

Edited to add: With being able to completely flip a roster in 1-2 years time and guys getting for the portal, I dont understand how coaches ir assistants that have been gone for 2+ years are still getting blamed for what's happening now. I couldn't give you an exact number but I'm sure most guys if not all that Arnett recruited are probably gone. I even see people still blaming Leach and that's crazy to me.

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We were never top 5. We were top 50 but nowhere near top 5. Also, Arnett is never coming back here. He lost the locker room and lost the respect of a lot of a lot of former players, members of the athletic dept, and a few really prominent boosters with how he handled everything.

I still remember the quote he gave after we lost to Kentucky 31-3. “Two more wins and I KEEP MY JOB”. That is not a summation of a quote or adding words. That was his exact quote and Bookie Watson had to be restrained from him.

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Originally Posted by StarkVegasSteve

We were never top 5. We were top 50 but nowhere near top 5. Also, Arnett is never coming back here. He lost the locker room and lost the respect of a lot of a lot of former players, members of the athletic dept, and a few really prominent boosters with how he handled everything.

I still remember the quote he gave after we lost to Kentucky 31-3. “Two more wins and I KEEP MY JOB”. That is not a summation of a quote or adding words. That was his exact quote and Bookie Watson had to be restrained from him.

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I think he was meaning top 5 SEC not national.
We were #11 in Total D in the SEC in '19 - then went 5,5,5,6 under Arnett (including his HC stint).
HOWEVER - where the rubber meets the road is Scoring D. In '19 we were #12 (after being #1 in '18). Arnett put us 6, 9, 7, 10.

I'd put him somewhere above Chris Wilson and Geoff Collins. But below Manny and Shoop, and possibly Grantham.

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Originally Posted by StarkVegasSteve

That last statement is 100% the truth. The big money people (McKinnis, Howard, Rula, Seal, Clark, Cleveland, etc) are not even remotely considering pulling the plug. I think they will push for staff changes, but overall changes in the head chair are not happening.

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Pushing for staff changes is the beginning of the end. When this starts, if always ends in a firing, usually soon.

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Originally Posted by BrunswickDawg

I think he was meaning top 5 SEC not national.
We were #11 in Total D in the SEC in '19 - then went 5,5,5,6 under Arnett (including his HC stint).
HOWEVER - where the rubber meets the road is Scoring D. In '19 we were #12 (after being #1 in '18). Arnett put us 6, 9, 7, 10.

I'd put him somewhere above Chris Wilson and Geoff Collins. But below Manny and Shoop, and possibly Grantham.

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In the D coordinator hierarchy I would have him below Manny 1, Manny 2, Grantham, and Collins.

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Originally Posted by msstate7

Pushing for staff changes is the beginning of the end. When this starts, if always ends in a firing, usually soon.

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No big boosters do it at every program. The big time guys have meetings with the AD about what went right, what went wrong, what they liked, what they may change, etc.

OM boosters pushed for a staff change in 22 to get Pete Golding. Our boosters pushed for staff changes in 09,12, and 16 under Mullen. Never in any of those situations was a firing imminent. Funny enough, they did not push for staff changes after 19. I think you are reading into this as the boosters were going to barge into the Bryan Building and start demanding we change the staff like some of our fans do on Twitter. These are not over emotional people. They understand the process and understand that their voices will be heard. They do not have to fire off 855 angry tweets, message board posts, and emails about how they are pulling their funding after every loss.

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Originally Posted by Quaoarsking

All that tells me is that all the dooming is overblown, and with a competent coach we'll still be able to compete. Florida and Texas spent way more money than us, and the vast majority of FBS coaches would have beaten both if they'd coached us this year.

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I think Lebby has made some bad decisions this year but to say vast majority of of FBS coaches would have beaten those team is absolutely dumb.

This doesn?t fit Todd4State?s narrative so it?s garbage.

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Originally Posted by msstate7

Pushing for staff changes is the beginning of the end. When this starts, if always ends in a firing, usually soon.

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We shouldn't require him to make any staff changes. It's his job, and he can do it however he wants.

Despite all the bickering, we are all pretty much on the same page: Lebby should and will be fired if he has a 3rd straight losing season next year. He knows that, and he can approach that problem in whatever way he thinks is best.

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Originally Posted by Quaoarsking

We shouldn't require him to make any staff changes. It's his job, and he can do it however he wants.

Despite all the bickering, we are all pretty much on the same page: Lebby should and will be fired if he has a 3rd straight losing season next year. He knows that, and he can approach that problem in whatever way he thinks is best.

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This is my way of thinking. If he's coming back next season, let em do it his way. Help him with NIL and staff money as much as possible, but let him decide what he needs. If you don't trust him to figure it, you don't trust him, so move on now.

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Originally Posted by Quaoarsking

We shouldn't require him to make any staff changes. It's his job, and he can do it however he wants.

Despite all the bickering, we are all pretty much on the same page: Lebby should and will be fired if he has a 3rd straight losing season next year. He knows that, and he can approach that problem in whatever way he thinks is best.

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This we agree on. I actually don't know anyone that disagrees with this point. He also knows he needs to make staff changes. I still have a pretty big gripe with him that he didn't can Turner and Bell last year but I think he thought bringing in Rhoads and Dancey would alleviate them a bit. I think it has for Bell, but he still needs to go. Turner just isn't made for today's game. A lot of coaches aren't. He can't recruit in today's game and if he can't recruit, his coaching looks bad too.

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Originally Posted by msstate7

This is my way of thinking. If he's coming back next season, let em do it his way. Help him with NIL and staff money as much as possible, but let him decide what he needs. If you don't trust him to figure it, you don't trust him, so move on now.

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This is more of what I meant by boosters giving their input. How it was during the Mullen days and I know for a fact it's how we got Grantham, "Hey Dan, we've got you some funding to go get an elite DC."

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Originally Posted by StarkVegasSteve

This is more of what I meant by boosters giving their input. How it was during the Mullen days and I know for a fact it's how we got Grantham, "Hey Dan, we've got you some funding to go get an elite DC."

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That's different than "fire so and so". I will never agree with dictating choices for you coach

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Originally Posted by msstate7

That's different than "fire so and so". I will never agree with dictating choices for you coach

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Agreed. You are not paying a coach and then dictating who he has to hire, or you shouldn’t at least.