We all know how bad we are so how do we manage out of this?

1. Got to give Lebby 2-3 years regardless; it can't get any worse and we need to show some long term commitment to a HC. Selmon needs to help Lebby search for some new assistants heading into spring.

2. Lebby needs to be honest with team. That was likely the worst loss in school history. Tell them, he is looking for players to play that want to be here. Appeal to self pride if they have none for MSU (which only a handful do anymore). Defense at MSU has a long proud tradition of being good and hard nosed. We are none of that right now. This message is for coaches too. Even in lean talent years, we still fielded solid Ds. You can scheme around talent and numbers.

3. Lebby needs to be searching for transfer and HS talent. We need a mix. Top MS HS talent that wants to be at MSU is the foundation for a solid program.

4. Somehow we have to do something to keep people interested. Think out of the box on game days, play calling, anything that can bring something to the fanbase.

5. Sure there is plenty more. What say you?

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Originally Posted by R2Dawg

1. Got to give Lebby 2-3 years regardless; it can't get any worse and we need to show some long term commitment to a HC. Selmon needs to help Lebby search for some new assistants heading into spring.

2. Lebby needs to be honest with team. That was likely the worst loss in school history. Tell them, he is looking for players to play that want to be here. Appeal to self pride if they have none for MSU (which only a handful do anymore). Defense at MSU has a long proud tradition of being good and hard nosed. We are none of that right now. This message is for coaches too. Even in lean talent years, we still fielded solid Ds. You can scheme around talent and numbers.

3. Lebby needs to be searching for transfer and HS talent. We need a mix. Top MS HS talent that wants to be at MSU is the foundation for a solid program.

4. Somehow we have to do something to keep people interested. Think out of the box on game days, play calling, anything that can bring something to the fanbase.

5. Sure there is plenty more. What say you?

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Have to look at what Mizziou did. Since we are a no go at the transfer portal we need to concentrate at HS recruiting, and keeping them here. rather build something with them then get an overhyped player who sat the bench in the aac/ And Lebby you gonna have to have a dual purpose QB.

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Originally Posted by parabrave

Have to look at what Mizziou did. Since we are a no go at the transfer portal we need to concentrate at HS recruiting, and keeping them here. rather build something with them then get an overhyped player who sat the bench in the aac/ And Lebby you gonna have to have a dual purpose QB.

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Agree. Look at what we did with a HS LB and Fitz. Dang Moorhead ran off Keyton and Shrader. We had things going and ran off the rails with those stupid move.

All these other schools rebuild quickly, we can too but I agree the foundation must be the good MS talent. What Mullen said and did too.

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Originally Posted by R2Dawg

Agree. Look at what we did with a HS LB and Fitz. Dang Moorhead ran off Keyton and Shrader. We had things going and ran off the rails with those stupid move.

All these other schools rebuild quickly, we can too but I agree the foundation must be the good MS talent. What Mullen said and did too.

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Well we have to have a coach that can develop talent and we have 3 years to see of Lebby can/ If you listen to Hadads recap of the game things don't look good.

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Originally Posted by parabrave

Have to look at what Mizziou did. Since we are a no go at the transfer portal we need to concentrate at HS recruiting, and keeping them here. rather build something with them then get an overhyped player who sat the bench in the aac/ And Lebby you gonna have to have a dual purpose QB.

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I agree on Mizzou. They were good when they first came to SEC, somewha comparable to us 2014-2018, then they really fell off after Pinkle (Mullen) left. We need to use them as a blue print to get back to having some success.

It is going to take baby steps. I agree we need to give Lebby time but after last night his job is going to be 10x harder.

1) coaches have to be better talent evaluators
2) we have to give more $ to NIL

The problems can NOT be solved with just NIL. There has to be pride in what you are doing in practice and game day. To have our defensive line shoved around by lesser teams is inexcusable. No twist, no stunting, no push and zero sacks is unbelievable. I was at the game and zeroed in watching the D line. Absolutely embarrassing.

Strength and conditioning is absolutely miserable! Our O line and D line are soft as charmin toilet paper.

As I explained to a young twenty something fan sitting near me, I have watched State football for 45+/- years mostly in person that this is probably near the worst. Also told him that to be a true State fan you better be prepared to constantly disappointed.

My big fear when Selmon announced Lebby as the choice for head coach was that Selmon just hired a good buddy and had no business being our head coach. I am not a huge Selmon fan. He better get this crap straighten out or he can hit the road and get somebody in here at A.D. that has some stones and some vision for our University and is willing to get on every tv, radio, podcast or media and tell our fan base what he is going to do or at least what he is trying to do.

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Originally Posted by Ranchdawg

The problems can NOT be solved with just NIL. There has to be pride in what you are doing in practice and game day. To have our defensive line shoved around by lesser teams is inexcusable. No twist, no stunting, no push and zero sacks is unbelievable. I was at the game and zeroed in watching the D line. Absolutely embarrassing.

Strength and conditioning is absolutely miserable! Our O line and D line are soft as charmin toilet paper.

As I explained to a young twenty something fan sitting near me, I have watched State football for 45+/- years mostly in person that this is probably near the worst. Also told him that to be a true State fan you better be prepared to constantly disappointed.

My big fear when Selmon announced Lebby as the choice for head coach was that Selmon just hired a good buddy and had no business being our head coach. I am not a huge Selmon fan. He better get this crap straighten out or he can hit the road and get somebody in here at A.D. that has some stones and some vision for our University and is willing to get on every tv, radio, podcast or media and tell our fan base what he is going to do or at least what he is trying to do.

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Hell except for the interwebs state athletics is void here on the coast. No radio, no media no coaches show. USM, UM and LSU have all three down here.

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Originally Posted by parabrave

Hell except for the interwebs state athletics is void here on the coast. No radio, no media no coaches show. USM, UM and LSU have all three down here.

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THIS!

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Originally Posted by parabrave

Have to look at what Mizziou did. Since we are a no go at the transfer portal we need to concentrate at HS recruiting, and keeping them here. rather build something with them then get an overhyped player who sat the bench in the aac/ And Lebby you gonna have to have a dual purpose QB.

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Mizzou was a 6-7 team at worst. We are way worse than Mizzou was so I don't get the comparison.

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Originally Posted by parabrave

Hell except for the interwebs state athletics is void here on the coast. No radio, no media no coaches show. USM, UM and LSU have all three down here.

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That's sad and shouldn't be the case. There have been some stars from that area

Teams with way less NIL than us are looking more prepared and their players play harder than ours do.

I think it's as much of the coaching as it is the players we have.

We've done a horrible job of promoting MSU football as well.

There have to be some locker room issues we aren't hearing about and if that's the case I hope we're doing something about it.

Mullen doesn?t get near enough credit for how good a coach he was, and how well he recruited and developed.

That is what has to happen and what bothers me most now.

Can Lebby evaluate and develop as good as Mullen?

Need to be a little patient but early returns look bad.

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Originally Posted by memsu06

Teams with way less NIL than us are looking more prepared and their players play harder than ours do.

I think it's as much of the coaching as it is the players we have.

We've done a horrible job of promoting MSU football as well.

There have to be some locker room issues we aren't hearing about and if that's the case I hope we're doing something about it.

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Agree on all points. No one is going to convince me Toledo has more talent (41-17 worth) than MSU in any time. Has Toledo ever out recruited us? I bet not. It ain't about talent right now. Playing TX UGA UT, sure it is but not ASU or Toledo.

With players quitting and getting run off and the apathy that appears to be with some, there are some player issues and coaching as well.

If you want to know how bad it is listen to Robbie Faulks post game show on his YT channel

We are going to have to evaluate better in recruiting. Both HS and portal recruiting. The amount of players we currently have on this roster STARTING, much less playing, that have no business playing at this level is astounding.

And that goes all the way back to Leach. Putting Dave Emerick in charge of recruiting and then following that up with Matt Dudek was an all time dumbass decision. Now, knowing Leach, he probably was not aware of the damage they were doing because he openly listed recruiting at 21 of the 22 positions. But he was the HC so that falls on him all the same.

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Originally Posted by R2Dawg

Agree on all points. No one is going to convince me Toledo has more talent (41-17 worth) than MSU in any time. Has Toledo ever out recruited us? I bet not. It ain't about talent right now. Playing TX UGA UT, sure it is but not ASU or Toledo.

With players quitting and getting run off and the apathy that appears to be with some, there are some player issues and coaching as well.

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I also think it's psychological.

What are the players we have playing for? How many are actually from MS or have pride in the university? The players aren't playing as a team and only care about themselves. Toledo is probably an outlier these days with a veteran team, but I bet they get paid less than our players. They had something to prove and mopped the floor with us. Remember Leach's Pirate speech at Texas Tech? That was emphasizing teamwork because pirate crews were made up of people with various backgrounds that came together for a common goal.

I think we have a bunch of mercenaries just getting paid without having to put in the work to actually do what we're paying them to do.

We need to kick them off the team and NIL should be earned not just given for just being on the team.

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Originally Posted by memsu06

I also think it's psychological.

What are the players we have playing for? How many are actually from MS or have pride in the university? The players aren't playing as a team and only care about themselves. Toledo is probably an outlier these days with a veteran team, but I bet they get paid less than our players. They had something to prove and mopped the floor with us. Remember Leach's Pirate speech at Texas Tech? That was emphasizing teamwork because pirate crews were made up of people with various backgrounds that came together for a common goal.

I think we have a bunch of mercenaries just getting paid without having to put in the work to actually do what we're paying them to do.

We need to kick them off the team and NIL should be earned not just given for just being on the team.

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They're playing to get to the next level. Just as Jeffrey Simmons was, Dak Prescott was, Fletcher Cox was, Fred Smoot was, Eric Moulds was, probably Johnnie Cooks was. These players do not have the mindset of fans. They didn't before NIL and they don't after. We just don't have a lot of talent right now. This isn't an NIL issue. We will get markedly worse if we start doing earned NIL payments, and btw I do not hate that idea. However, no one worth a crap will be playing for us. We just need to get better players. It's that simple

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Originally Posted by StarkVegasSteve

We will get markedly worse if we start doing earned NIL payments. No one worth a crap will be playing for us. We just need to get better players. It's that simple

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Yeah there is no way that putting stipulations on NIL payments would ever work. They will just scoff at us and head to the next bidder.

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Originally Posted by State82

Yeah there is no way that putting stipulations on NIL payments would ever work. They will just scoff at us and head to the next bidder.

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And I know the response to that will be "well we don't need those types of players". However, we do. That's everyone in today's world. And not for nothing, it was most everyone before this was legal. If you think players were not getting monthly payments in addition to stipends and all that then you are burying your head in the sand. I'd venture 10-15 guys in every recruiting class were getting some type of additional money. Some of it was large amounts and regular monthly payments(Simmons, Jones, and Sweat type players) and some were smaller amounts and infrequent payments. Just when they needed some extra money. But it was happening.

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Originally Posted by StarkVegasSteve

They're playing to get to the next level. Just as Jeffrey Simmons was, Dak Prescott was, Fletcher Cox was, Fred Smoot was, Eric Moulds was, probably Johnnie Cooks was. These players do not have the mindset of fans. They didn't before NIL and they don't after. We just don't have a lot of talent right now. This isn't an NIL issue. We will get markedly worse if we start doing earned NIL payments, and btw I do not hate that idea. However, no one worth a crap will be playing for us. We just need to get better players. It's that simple

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I disagree. Yeah those guys you list had the talent to get to next level but those guys all had heart and loved MSU. Simmons comes back all the time. That is what is missing now. The apathy about everything but how much I'm getting paid and when. They don't care about anything else.

We can pay more NIL but it will not produce any more wins until it is combined with a give a crap and we actually get some talent for our investment. We getting 0 ROI on our NIL investment. If this is a business (we say it is), we need to give these guys a lesson in business.

ASU and Toledo played with heart and passion, we don't. I see a few players that do but it takes all 11 on the field to produce wins.

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Originally Posted by memsu06

I also think it's psychological.

What are the players we have playing for? How many are actually from MS or have pride in the university? The players aren't playing as a team and only care about themselves. Toledo is probably an outlier these days with a veteran team, but I bet they get paid less than our players. They had something to prove and mopped the floor with us. Remember Leach's Pirate speech at Texas Tech? That was emphasizing teamwork because pirate crews were made up of people with various backgrounds that came together for a common goal.

I think we have a bunch of mercenaries just getting paid without having to put in the work to actually do what we're paying them to do.

We need to kick them off the team and NIL should be earned not just given for just being on the team.

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Agreed, great post.

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Originally Posted by StarkVegasSteve

We are going to have to evaluate better in recruiting. Both HS and portal recruiting. The amount of players we currently have on this roster STARTING, much less playing, that have no business playing at this level is astounding.

And that goes all the way back to Leach. Putting Dave Emerick in charge of recruiting and then following that up with Matt Dudek was an all time dumbass decision. Now, knowing Leach, he probably was not aware of the damage they were doing because he openly listed recruiting at 21 of the 22 positions. But he was the HC so that falls on him all the same.

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Also agree. This mess didn't happen over night and we can't put all blame on Lebby. He inherited what was already sown.

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Originally Posted by R2Dawg

I disagree. Yeah those guys you list had the talent to get to next level but those guys all had heart and loved MSU. Simmons comes back all the time. That is what is missing now. The apathy about everything but how much I'm getting paid and when. They don't care about anything else.

We can pay more NIL but it will not produce any more wins until it is combined with a give a crap and we actually get some talent for our investment. We getting 0 ROI on our NIL investment. If this is a business (we say it is), we need to give these guys a lesson in business.

ASU and Toledo played with heart and passion, we don't. I see a few players that do but it takes all 11 on the field to produce wins.

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If we try to give them a lesson in business, we will get a lesson in supply and demand. We will have to overpay for even lesser players than we currently have.

I think State is in a weird place in the CFB pecking order. The guys like Odom has at UNLV, -or Candle at Toledo- know they aren't likely to make the pros and are doing it for the love of the game. They might have a player every year or so who leaves for an SEC payday, but by and large? The HS kids they sign/ the SEC castoffs they pick up in the Portal are going to be there until they graduate. You can actually get the kids to ride the bench a year in order to be a backup the next year and then start the last 2.

For us though, we need guys with the ceiling to compete with the biggest names out there. IE, we need kids who have been told they're amazing since 6th grade, who have people in their ears telling them they'll be a day 1-2 draft pick after year 3, who say "That's all the NIL they're offering you? You're worth WAY more than that!". The Portal players we try to pick up are often looking for a payday or PT to impress scouts and don't give a crap about State or the team overall. The HS players we do sign can leave -without penalty, mind you- anytime they feel slighted or offered more NIL.

It's a weird spot to be in, arguably the worst of both words. Neither the "I just love football and want to do what it takes to win" mentality nor the "I'm Chris Jones and I will destroy your offense" level stars since we can't pay them enough to stay if they turn into that.

There is no more "developmental program" in the NIL world. There's only NIL and coaching and we lack the first and won't pay enough for the 2nd

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Originally Posted by Todd4State

Mizzou was a 6-7 team at worst. We are way worse than Mizzou was so I don't get the comparison.

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They went 5-7 and 4-8 after they started off hot in SEC those first couple of years

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Originally Posted by parabrave

If you want to know how bad it is listen to Robbie Faulks post game show on his YT channel

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Cliff notes?

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Originally Posted by StarkVegasSteve

If we try to give them a lesson in business, we will get a lesson in supply and demand. We will have to overpay for even lesser players than we currently have.

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You mean the lesson we got from Toledo who bought a better talent team than us?

We've got to sign good players and fire bad coaches on staff. You're going to see this roster slashed and a bunch more transfers in. We should be identifying guys this round instead of just taking what's out there. Hopefully the portal is strong.

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Originally Posted by MoreCowbell

Cliff notes?

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Very simple; we suck and are going to suck for a few years

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Originally Posted by R2Dawg

You mean the lesson we got from Toledo who bought a better talent team than us?

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Toledo is a MAC school. They develop their 2-3 stars and by the time they are 4th and 5th year seniors then they are so well versed in the system that they can overcome the talent gap they face against a P4 team, especially at the LOS. I mean people act like Toledo never has any talent, hell their QB from last year is starting at Baylor. They get picked over just like every other G5 team. And they don't have the money to go out and get a transfer QB lots of time, but Candle has been there for so long that he knows the type of QB he wants to recruit so they have backups that are waiting in the wings. It's no different than when Dan was here for so long. There was never a worry from him if Russell went down because he had Dak. He knew he'd be ok if Dak went down because he had Nick. Dan recruited HIS type of QB. The system had been in place so long that he knew the type of QB that worked in the system and the type that didn't. He also knew that Hev had a line where we could run the scheme effectively. That's what we're lacking right now. Our line can not run the scheme.