Asymptomatic spread of covid is "very rare" per the WHO.
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/06/08/asym...-who-says.html
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Asymptomatic spread of covid is "very rare" per the WHO.
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/06/08/asym...-who-says.html
I find that a little hard to believe based on the fact that there have been some processing plants where a huge percentage of the workforce got it but basically nobody was symptomatic. I guess there could have been one person with mild symptoms somehow circulating it to basically everybody.Quote:
Originally Posted by confucius say
SO y'all have a county police department, and a sheriff's department? What is the sheriff's department for if not the law enforcement in the county?Quote:
Originally Posted by BrunswickDawg
It's not just killings that are instances of police brutality. I'm just looking at stats there and that's troubling that we couldn't go two weeks without breaking 500 incidents.
As for the section about black population accounting for 50% of violent crimes and thus coming into contact more with leo. That's a chicken and egg thing, no? Self-fulfilling prophecy somewhat.
Not really, in regards to violent crimes the police are typically called TOO them they aren't there before they happen. In other words, we typically aren't there before the shooting, assault, armed robbery, rape, murder happens they arrive as it's happening or shortly after to pick up the pieces. We have to look at WHY that is and then go from there. It has very little to do with law enforcement and a lot to do with poverty, education, and leadership. That could be addressed many ways.
But your points about growth is correct. We need to defund the military toys (and things that are war crimes) and invest in pay, training, etc. I personally don't think Minneapolis will be successful, but I'm interested to see the results and how this will drive the conversation forward.
I think we can all agree of these 5 things for cops that would make life easier for everyone (cops, poc, white people alike):
1. Require body cameras at all times. (Have someone trained to watching all active cops in the department. Once one feed goes out notify officer immediately. If unable to fix immediately, officer is to return to precinct and be supplied with a new one. Not to engage in any cop-like activities. Arrest with the buddy system to mitigate a person in custody when one camera goes out.)
Most body cameras arent live feed they record and download...and they are expensive. Our department spends about $75k a year on them and we are just a mid-seized department. If you are in pursuit of an individual with a weapon or in the middle of breaking up a dispute you can't just leave to go get a camera and come back later. I mean: guy is running after his wife with a shotgun through the front yard and and you jump out to stop him and your camera falls off or stops working...you just turnaround and leave?? It's going to be VERY tough to use a buddy system when your department is underfunded or DE-funded. Most precincts barely have enough officers to cover a regular shift as it is (that's with one man per beat)...how are you going to afford more police with less money in your budget. Plus...you get rid of qualified immunity then no one in their right minds will be law enforcement anymore anyway. With that said body cameras should be required for all law enforcement but it's going to have to be funded. It's not just the device you are buying but cloud storage forhundreds of thousands of hours of footage and software to parse it all and search it
2. End chokeholds. No neck restraining, period. 100% agree
3. End qualified immunity. You're trained by the law. You shouldn't be able to go outside said bounds without no restriction.
50% disagree. That means if I get in a tussle with a drunk guy that wants to drive home and decides to fight me and he ends up breaking his nose or wrist or whatever...or if I tase him...then he will be able to sue me and also I will have aggravated assault charges leveled against me. Law enforcement officers would be bankrupt or in jail within their first year. I propose QI stands but we appoint a special unit that complaints go directly to at the state level that are triaged by a wide variety of professionals and then appropriate action is taken if warranted. A unit that is dissassociated from the AG's office or any law enforcement agency that is made up of attorneys, social workers, psychologists, use of force experts, investigators, etc. It would be a FULL time job.
4. Stop spending on ridiculous toys, spend on the officers themselves. (The money saved on riot gear, tear gas, swat bullshit is going to more than make up for cameras and training.) 10000000% agree
5. No Han Solo shooting. As a cop, you do not shoot to kill first. You are trained to handle a deadly weapon. You are trained to act under pressure. Shoot to disarm or don't shoot first. Cameras will help tell the story here.
100% disagree You just can't do that. In the heat of the moment when bullets start flying or someone is running at you with a weapon very few people have the type of control to shoot a weapon out of your hand. The second you pull the trigger of a gun you are committing to kill someone. It is a deadly weapon. I've seen people shot in the foot, leg, and arm die within 5 minutes and someone shot in the head live and go home th enext day. Once that projectile enters a body and impacts a bone it can go pretty much anywhere inside of the human body. I can't express enough how wrong you are on this one. Every time I hear this argument I just think someone has watched too much TV and movies. If someone pulls a gun on you you have a second to decide whether or not you want to live the rest of your life. If you want to go home to your family. At the end of the day...don't...pull..a...weapon...on....a...cop... It's a very simple method.
Don't think that this stuff is unreasonable. Would make things go a lot smoother. People wouldn't have to videotape every encounter with a cop. People could feel secure that the cop has a level of oversight that will prevent police brutality. (Again brutality is not limited to death.)
You are correct here and THAT needs to be addressed. Most of the rhetoric seems to focus on death though so that's what I geared my thoughts toward. Again, I have been in law enforcement for 20 years...I have seen our department offer one...ONE...4 hour course on communication and we are probably ahead of the curve on that for most law enforcement agencies. As opposed to our mandatory FIVE TIMES a year training in shooting and fighting. That has to change. You can't sharpen a sword and not expect it to cut. We have to change the way we hire and train.
3 years and you use your first post on this. Who's banned backup account are you?Quote:
Originally Posted by Heston
Nobody's. And the point stands.
They never steal work boots and tools.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Lambert
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dawgology
Outstanding post my friend.
Yep, it's not uncommon in GA. The Sheriff is elected, runs the jail, courts, serves warrants, etc. Counties have the "option" to create their own police departments, overseen by the county commission, and they handle typical police duties. It's ridiculous, and typically a vanity and control project for county politicians. we have a community of 90,000, with city police, county police, the sheriff's dept, and the school system police (yeah, that's a thing). Not to mention DNR Law Enforcement, GA State Patrol, Georgia Ports Authority Police, and College of Coastal Georgia Police. Oh - and with the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center here, we have DEA, Customs, NCIS, ATF, Park Police, Boarder Patrol, and Secret Service training here, and living here. We probably have more LEO per capita than any community in AmericaQuote:
Originally Posted by Johnson85
Bravo, Sir! Well thought out and great stuff!Quote:
Originally Posted by Dawgology
ETA agreed that shoot to disarm stuff is people watching to much tv.
Thank you! I would also like to add a few other recommendations:Quote:
Originally Posted by Commercecomet24
1. Mandatory yearly psychological visits for all police personnel with close attention to signs of PTSD. I think that most law enforcement officers struggle with PTSD.
2. Regarding the state unit I recommended there should be a scaled system in which once a certain number of credible complaints are issued per capita on a law enforcement agency it would initiate a thorough audit and internal investigation of the entire department. This would be accomplished by the same team composition (attorneys, social workers, psychologists, use of force experts, investigators, etc) that are unaffiliated with the department. Perhaps even fold some local community leaders into that team once it gets on the ground at the department.
That's a good point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnson85
You've really put a lot of thought into this. From all I've been reading through all this these are by far the best ideas yet. Everybody keeps talking about reform, fixing the "system", yada yada yada, with no realistic ideas being put out other than disband the police depts(which is insane!). These ideas are awesome and and I don't see how anyone(although I'm sure there are some), could argue with this plan. If nothing else would be a great starting point. Thank you for sharing this with us!Quote:
Originally Posted by Dawgology
Why would a political party want to gut, disband local law enforcement? It’s like there’s a playbook.
They don't and they will not. They will play lip service to gain points when the time is right. Then do nothing. They have been doing that for ever.Quote:
Originally Posted by turkish
That's just good politicking...***Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Lambert
Yeah there's a ton of grandstanding going on by politicians right now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Lambert
Responding to Dawgology here. For simplicity sake I'll just go by A, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5.
A. I still think there's somewhat of a self-fulfilling prophecy in that police are more likely to be called on a POC. Just look at George Floyd versus that other guy who used a fake $20. One is dead and the other has a funny story to tell about the time he tried to use a counterfeit bill. But I think you hit the nail on the head with why the system is really bad. It's poverty. Poor people are ****ed by it. Regardless of color.
1. I think the software to search shouldn't be that hard to maintain, its the hardware and storage that would be the tough part. We have phones that can broadcast to millions of people currently. I find it hard to believe that we can't afford the cameras themselves. I think the spending point gets covered with 4. Something tells me we have way too much of a budget going somewhere that it shouldn't.
2. Not sure if there is anyone left disagreeing with this tbh.
3. Internal Affairs is supposed to be this unit but that hasn't worked in the past. This is honestly the toughest one. Not sure what to make of it, but the simplest strategy to me is ending it and then building from scratch. I think the way it is now is beyond repair. Obviously you wouldn't want officers sued for discharging a taser. So there does have to be middle ground I agree. Where that is and how that is ironed out is for someone more well versed than me to layout.
4. Nothing to add.
5. It's a tough one. But I think there's nothing wrong with aiming and being at the ready to fire. Not saying to not be in position. But de-escalation should be the key. If someone is posing a threat to pull out a gun there's nothing wrong with having it aimed IMO (if you are properly trained.) Once they draw the gun into sight (make a sudden movement for it, etc.) then that's another story. My point is we shouldn't be shooting people however many times the dude with the hammer got shot because we thought he had a gun. You should have visible proof and intent to shoot from the perp to discharge the weapon. Not just a hunch they may pull it on you.
Haha! Been in their playbook for a very long time. Good call my friend.Quote:
Originally Posted by turkish
Quote:
Originally Posted by dantheman4248
Not making up excuses for anyone... but you make it sound so simple when it's just not in real time. Period.
Plenty of people have been shot very prematurely because someone got nervous or trigger happy and unfortunate isn't the word for that. But when it comes to guns if you are pulling it you better be ready to use it. That goes for a police officer or civilian.
If you make sudden moves and reach in a pocket or somewhere else while someone already has a bead on you, I don't know how to help you. Yes it's possible guns should've never been pulled out and pointed in that scenario without trying to de-escalate the situation first, but these are split second life and death decisions. No one should be held above the law, but at the same time if an officer has a gun on me, I'm going to do whatever he says and very slowly. Nothing is worth dying over.
This doesn't solve the problem of fear most of the black community has towards officers but bottomline on your #5 point is if a gun is out don't mess around because it's very likely the person who is drawn on you is jacked on adrenaline and ready to pull the trigger with any sign. If you have a way to channel that you are on another level. Training can only help so much when it comes to live action.
And that's where I think better training and mainly cameras will mitigate a lot of issues there. I think cameras is the biggest thing other than demilitarizing. Cameras make a lot of these situations fall into place and easier to deal with.
Very, very well said. Accurate!Quote:
Originally Posted by StateDawg44
Quote:
Originally Posted by dantheman4248
How do you give better training without tipping towards the military route? You & I agree we need a less militarized police force. Do they need to be psych majors also? Hostage negotiators? Profilers? Even if they were, getting a feel for the situation pulling up in the middle of a heated moment and hearing all sides of it from all sides is nearly impossible for anyone to interpret with 100% accuracy. Especially if there may be a weapon involved & whether you have prior knowledge of that weapon or not. And the fact that you were probably hauling ass to get there and adrenaline is likely taking effect before you even step foot on the ground because of that. And adrenaline is actually usually involved on both sides of this equation. Neither side is seeing things 100% clearly.
I have a feeling that cameras are the farthest thing from the officer's minds when they are in the heat of the moment and the split-second decision of "is he reaching for a weapon?". UNLESS he/she is knowingly doing something wrong and they want to make sure it stays off-camera. A row of people pointing their phones at these officers dealing with George Floyd didn't stop them from doing what they did. Why would something like a camera strapped to their chest stop that group of officers? It may hold some more accountable and save lives so I'm not against them or anything and saving one life is better than nothing. The fear and uncertainty that may cause a suspect or innocent civilian to react is still there whether the officer has a camera on their chest or not.
I agree that cameras would help in certain situations, but I'd be willing to bet that those types of situations would involve more of the "bad apple" type of officers that give all police a bad name like what's going on right now. There is no room for error when it's involving life and death for either side. I'm not arguing against them or anything. I also know you're not saying cameras and training would prevent all of these situations. There is just more going on than most people realize.
The number one way to protect yourself from police brutality is don't be a jerk. That is going to escalate any situation, that is HUMAN nature, not just cops. I'm not saying that would stop it all, but it would stop a TON of it.
The problem is you're making this be an absolute. There is no perfect training for every situation. But there can be better training. Dawgology articulated training thoughts a lot better than I could.
As for the cameras, yes they keep the bad apples in line (not all clearly. That's why we need some reform on other things like qualified immunity. How exactly? That's above my pay grade at this point but i think it would be easier to build that up from scratch than patch the current system.) Remember, a few bad apples spoil the bunch.
Are you replying to me?Quote:
Originally Posted by dantheman4248
How have I made it an absolute? The entire point of what I was saying is there is no such thing as an absolute for training when you're dealing with humans and their ability to make their own decisions (right or wrong) and how each and every scenario they encounter is different.
I don't disagree with what you're saying. But training when it comes to guns and split-second decisions is flawed no matter how you approach it. Humans can't and never will be perfect. Not an excuse though. It's just like gun control and the removal of all guns. Take guns away from law-abiding citizens and all it does is make them defenseless. Criminals will still have guns that are stolen or not registered to them. There is no perfect way to do it and I am certainly not advocating for gun control of any sort whatsoever.
How do you prepare or train for "suicide by cop"? I'm not lobbying for higher pay for police or anything but to think a prospect would go through all of that strenuous training and education that would be required PLUS still be risking their lives is hard to imagine for what they are paid.
IA is useless. It always has been and it always will be. It's completely biased, non-transparent, and reeks of coverup. It needs to be an unaffiliated group that contains a more complex mixture of individuals than just police officers and investigators. Like a said, a large state unit that triages all complaints on police brutality, investigates, mitigates, and enacts an outside audit and review of a law enforcement agency once a threshold is reached. This would also allow the complaintants personal info and name to be masked form the law enforcement agency if there was a fear of reprisal. Once the review committee got on the ground you could fold in leaders from the community that would convey issues they are seeing at their level with the local LEO and the community.Quote:
Originally Posted by dantheman4248
Yeah...officers here start at $14/hr....smh. As long as you employ humans to do police work or any type of enforcement or mitigation you will have the issues and problems that come along with being human. Police officers arent' robots. They have bad days. They have family issues. They have financial stress. Just like everyone else. But they are one of the few positions from which the public expects perfection at all times. It is an impossible standard. The stress is unbelievable. The average age of death for a male police officer is 66 years old. That is almost 25% below the national average. It is due largely to stress impacts on health.Quote:
Originally Posted by StateDawg44
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4734369/
This is, again, why I think many officers struggle with PTSD. You pile what's going on nationwide right now to that it gets worse. Imagine literally sacrificing your health and life to try to make the world just a littl ebit better and maybe protect some people only to hear "all cops are dirty" and "all cops should be killed" due to a few idiots who abuse their power.
And the thing is, the disbanding of departments would take the few idiots off the streets and remove their authority. I guess it would take the immunity part away from them also.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dawgology
But it's for damn sure that those idiots would be replaced with more idiots 10 times over with no real authority to reel them in.
This is correct. I've heard a few people (albeit the fringe leftist) saying that communities could police themselves. This is a ridiculous statement. The court systems still require burden of proof for crimes. There are also these things called the 5th and 6th Amendment, and a host of legal precedence that dictate what is allowable. I guess if you are willing as a US citizen to give up your 5th and 6th Amendment rights you can just just let communities enact their own justice. Good luck....let's see how that goes.Quote:
Originally Posted by StateDawg44
Folks need to read about why Sir Robert Peel created modern policing in 1829. Don't believe all this garbage that is being floated out by ultra-liberal groups about law enforcement in America. The model was established in 1829 in London and was implemented in the US in 1838 in Boston and it spread from there. It is a clear line of implemenation and has absolutely NOTHING to do with slaves or posse's. That is 100% propaganda.
You're alright my man! Not enough rep on here for you!Quote:
Originally Posted by Dawgology
The COVID numbers were not good today. The ICU numbers hit an all time high with a big jump over the previous day.
3-21-2020 for posterity.Quote:
Originally Posted by dantheman4248
You have not heard. No one cares anymore.*****Quote:
Originally Posted by Liverpooldawg
Good grief dude. Where were our two days ago when hospitalized hit a month low... and no all time high was 172. You and dan the man love to talk about the the bad. Deal w it. It isn't going away.Quote:
Originally Posted by Liverpooldawg
I deal in reality. Hence my early early EARLY guestimation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Homedawg
500k deaths by the end of the year (as social distancing gets worse and we lose 1k a day already w/ it it's a reasonable assumption this will be closer than almost anyone else on here.)
America wouldn't handle 2+ months of quarantine. We'd protest for our jobs.
It's almost like when you look at things objectively you can make good guesses. Who ****in knew
Look at me, look at me. Look what I did.Quote:
Originally Posted by dantheman4248
You so desperately want a pat on the back, don't you?
Congrats????
Let's see.Quote:
Originally Posted by StateDawg44
Attack me for having a "negative opinion"
Attack me for making a "negative prediction" (when asked).
Attack me for pointing out I'm right.
It seems like it's not about having discourse but about attacking someone who hurt your snowflake feelings. Remember feels =/= reals.
Point was people loved to shit on my "outlandish" opinion and here we are, with me hitting the nail on the head. But we didn't have data then and we didn't have this and we didn't have that and **** you you can't just assume numbers that's not how math works.
Next time when someone gives you educated information, maybe read it and respond in kind. World would be a lot better place.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dantheman4248
You is smart, you is kind, you is important.
I couldn't care less if what you were predicting was negative or positive. Quit pretending like everything you say or predict comes to fruition or like you are some mastermind.
"Remember feels =/= reals."
The fact that you would even type something like that says all anyone needs to know. I'll just point and laugh at you. And that's beyond ironic you're accusing someone else of being a snowflake. Carry on though.
Your cherry-picked "outlandish" opinion is null and void and totally irrelevant after finding out the virus had been here since November. Whatever makes you feel good though. Your "data" was still wrong because they were well behind it with the numbers being used and still aren't accurate. The fact that they were wrong and their numbers couldn't be accurate, whether they were low or high was all I was saying. You pretend like they are set in stone and without a doubt accurate. They aren't. Period.
Anyone with a brain could predict a virus would spread and we'd reach certain numbers. But again, You is smart, you is kind, you is important. Stroke that ego.
Continue relishing in copying and pasting info. along like you are crunching numbers and enjoying getting to say I told ya so every death toll or infected milestone your "prediction" comes to. Sick, sad, and pathetic.
Are you talking about 500K deaths by the end of the year in America or the world? You understand that (though Mississippi is seeing slight growth due to more testing) that daily cases and deaths are dropping in the US and have been since the end of April. Additionally, worldwide daily case number are growing while daily deaths are dropping. This is a strong indication that the virus is FAR more widespread than anyone thought and far less dealy than anyone thought and treament for the disease has improved.Quote:
Originally Posted by dantheman4248