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Yep, this! This hospital situation is nationwide. Here's another kick in the stones, the ones in the worst shape are children's hospitals who had to prepare to treat the "overflow" of covid patients that never materialized. Many are now in danger of closing for good with losses in the billions. It's going to be a shame when children and their families can't get affordable treatments and treatments specific to pediatric health care because of this. Sad.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cooterpoot
Then why were Woodward and Cook at Ummc begging Tate to shut everything down? We are going to destroy more people's lives economically than we are going to have covid deaths in MS.Quote:
Originally Posted by Commercecomet24
Good question, and I agree wholeheartedly about destroying peoples lives economically. Just look at whats happening in Pennsylvania right now. Suicide, domestic abuse, etc. have all spiked during there draconian shutdown up their and the numbers are continuing to rise.Quote:
Originally Posted by confucius say
Dude ... The kids and younger generation aren't important. What's important is keeping 80 year olds alive another 4 or 5 years. We care about Grandma and Grandpa.Quote:
Originally Posted by Commercecomet24
Because they were fools like the others that thought this virus would fill up their hospitals and they'd get government money.Quote:
Originally Posted by confucius say
You're a damn fool if you believe that.Quote:
Originally Posted by dawgday166
And building temporary hospitals just in case they are needed. Crazy.Quote:
Originally Posted by confucius say
https://www.npr.org/2020/05/07/85171...id-19-patients
Ah...no. They tried to plan ahead for an epidemic that could have over extended their available space and resources. The only reason it didn't is because people did follow the isolation protocols that flattened the curve. This government money bullcrap people keep throwing around is both dumb and revisionist junk. Hospitals do not have the luxury of turning away people in a pandemic. They have a responsibility to secure whatever space they can and make adjustments to fight it head on, cause people could (believed at the time) were going to start to show up desperately sick in the hundreds and possibly thousands depending on the population density of the area served. Everything is not a conspiracy to get your tax dollars. Hospitals have taken huge losses to gear up for this epidemic, that was lessened due to our personal safety actions these last two-three months.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cooterpoot
Cooter, we all should be applauding the healthcare system for their flexibilty and hard work, especially in the northeast US that was hit particularly hard and fast.
At the time the cases were doubling every other day. What would you have them do? Sit on their ass and wait for a bunch of people to die waiting in the wait room. Come one now.Quote:
Originally Posted by fishwater99
For serious, you guys act like we had all the answers to this thing in March. Science takes time. Known facts are amended or downright disproven as we gather new information. Actions have to be taken at the time to give us the best scenario based on known facts at that time. If I were in charge of healthcare treatment on an area as large as NYC, seeing the numbers coming in, I would have built emergency overflow areas too. History has shown how pandemics can completely overrun any healthcare system and then much more people die due to lack of space, equipment, and facilities.
That is called planning ahead based on projections. Those projections changed due to the isolation measures. Both were exactly what needed to happen. Plan for the worst and plan to avoid the worst. Both are exactly what was needed at the time.Quote:
Originally Posted by fishwater99
I meant that sarcastically ... I think you probably knew that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cooterpoot
I don't want folks to die but there are a lot larger ramifications that are and have been ignored by a lot of folks. To hear how some and maybe a good many hospitals are struggling due to shutting down everything else including kids hospitals now, non-emergency preventive type diagnostic procedures that can catch cancer early, etc. just makes me SMDH. A lot of local decisions driven by the National Clamor of 3 or 4 big states with bigger problems seriously affected the local decisions.
I think there is some validity to this. It is hard to blame anybody too much when dealing with an unknown. But I think it is clear that mistakes were made, both by medical professionals and politicians. There was too much of a one size fits all approach taken. MS is not New YorkQuote:
Originally Posted by Lord McBuckethead
Don't remember who it was, but early in this thread, someone posted how if the distancing measures, lock downs, etc. worked, people would look back and bitch about how unnecessary it all was....but it only seems that way precisely because the measures worked. A fairly clairvoyant post, that was.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord McBuckethead
Projections based on false models and bad data.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord McBuckethead
They don't seem unnecessary because they worked, they were unnecessary because we now know the virus isn't nearly as bad as thought. Some of that is very forgiveable. We had a lack of information and played dthings cautiously. Some of that is people just made bad decisions. New York basically 17ed the whole country by handling everything so poorly. Don't send sick patients into nursing homes, don't cut the public transit capacity in half so that people are forced onto fewer trains, and actually clean the buses and subway cars daily from the beginning, and maybe New York's numbers don't look so bad that everybody else freaks out.Quote:
Originally Posted by BeardoMSU
Things are presumably much better now than they would have been as far as the spread of the virus and number of deaths (obviously not as far as the economy and deaths and hardship related to that). But we probably haven't moved the needle that much as far as limiting deaths, except that nwo that we know that the risk is much less for the non-vulnerable population, maybe we can do a better job of protecting nursing home residents.
Did they? I don't think they did. Everyone will get this stuff at some point no matter what unless a vaccine knocks it out first. Hospitals aren't going to be overrun and never were. Millions are financially ruined.Quote:
Originally Posted by BeardoMSU
And you knew this (hospitals weren't going to be overrun) how? There's an awful lot of people that would've loved to know this when you apparently did.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cooterpoot
You're looking at capacity, but you're leaving out the key point of supplies!Quote:
Originally Posted by Cooterpoot
How much worse would it have been had hospitals been running without a public quarantine??? As bad as it was (and it was bad), I don't even want to imagine what that colossal shitshow would have been like.
Elective surgeries will return and at some point in the near future the feds will help healthcare again and infuse some cash.
I think it's funny how left leaning people can say this now, and right leaning people defend trump for the same reasons when people blast him for not being a fortune teller and taking action earlier.Quote:
Originally Posted by Joebob
Truth is, there was a lot of uncertainty and a lot of bad decisions made, mostly by the supposed medical expert community.
Is there any evidence to suggests the death toll would ultimately be higher without public quarantine than it will be with public quarantine? I've seen no such data.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gutter Cobreh
This sums it up pretty well.Quote:
Originally Posted by confucius say
There was zero reason to end surgeries. Hell, major surgeries were still happening. People weren't catching COVID from those. Hospitals were isolating a couple areas for COVID. The risk was almost nothing. In MS, half the deaths have been nursing home deaths. These measures had no effect on that. And nursing homes were as close to total social distancing as you can find. No people other than workers in or out. Most people who get this don't even know it. We've had almost no deaths below the age of 59. Shutting things down at medical facilities was dead ass wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gutter Cobreh
Quote:
Originally Posted by confucius say
But muh graphs and charts don't lie**
This is a kick in the nuts for both sides of the mask wearing.
I do not wear mask but I don't believe what W.H.O says and those who say we should wear mask pretty much supports the W,H.O.
https://www.foxnews.com/world/who-gu...virus-patients
Quote:
Originally Posted by confucius say
My post didn't say anything about death toll or whether surgeries should have been cancelled, so not sure why both of you are not addressing my point about supplies.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cooterpoot
Are both of you implying that all of the hospitals in MS didn't feel any effect from the lack of PPE? I'm not talking strictly about ventilators, I'm talking about gloves, masks, gowns, etc.. You know, the simple items we all took for granted.
The "just in time" inventory that a majority (if not all) of hospitals use failed because there was a run on certain items; no different than toilet paper with the general public.
The fact remains, you wouldn't have been able to run normal operations within a hospital during this time because there were no supplies, since these supplies were nonexistent.
While you contemplate your answer, will you please tell me where I can get a couple canisters of Clorox wipes???
Not a single hospital I deal with had issues with PPE. And the PPEs used in surgery and used in a COVID unit aren't the same.
Hell, I can go buy PPEs everyday with no problem. The government hoarded PPEs. But it's not hard to find a lot of what hospital needs.
The lack of testing was the major issue. The slow ass results from MDH. But that's all been corrected too.
Our hospital had a short term issue with non-respirator PPE. Not sure if "elective" procedures would have made it significantly worse. A lot of the issue is they were just burning through a shit ton of one time use PPE in situations where they normally wouldn't have had it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cooterpoot
This!Quote:
Originally Posted by Cooterpoot
Please tell me where I can find some disinfectant wipes??? Any distilleries around that you know of that switched to making hand sanitizer??? If so, why would that be if supplies were abundant?Quote:
Originally Posted by Cooterpoot
Also, I don't know if the facilities you're referencing are rural or urban. I guess I should have clarified. If the facilities are what you'd consider rural and never had an influx initially of COVID patients, then maybe they were able to handle their inventory. The government wasn't hoarding supplies, as they didn't have them. The stockpile was empty. They did redirect supplies when they became available which further exasperated the problem.
This is probably what a majority of locations encountered. What I'm trying to illustrate is that the same PPE used on COVID to a certain degree is also used for all patients under isolation within a hospital (gown, mask, gloves, etc.). If there were supply chain issues just dealing with COVID, when adding back in the need for "normal operations" - it would have been a catastrophic failure.Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnson85
I will acknowledge that a "one size fits all" model isn't what is needed. I think if a facility is rural and hasn't seen a lot of cases, then they can operate normally or open back up faster.
There are models, which have been spectacularly wrong; in some cases because the models were crappy, in some cases just because we had a lot of incomplete/incorrect information, and in some cases a combination of both.Quote:
Originally Posted by confucius say
Without social distancing and lock down, the death toll at this point would have been higher from covid, higher from car wrecks and other accidents, lower from heart attack and strokes, lower from suicide, etc. and it's hard to say how all that shakes out. I don't think anybody has certain enough data to know how that all would have shaken out in net, and also, I still don't think we hvae the data to know how many COVID deaths we have avoided versus how many we have delayed.
When you stated it would have been a lot worse, I thought you meant the impact of the virus, not supplies.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gutter Cobreh
Regarding gloves, masks, and gowns, which hospitals in MS had such a shortage of those that it required shutting everything down? I'm asking because I honestly don't know. The nurses and doctors I know who work in hospitals have an abundance of those that they are stockpiling in case there is a second wave in the fall. They've sent me pics of stacks of masks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cooterpoot
Nope - not talking about the virus. My initial reply was to Cooterpoot regarding hospitals never being overrun - which I tagged above your last post. I simply stated that even if hospitals had never stopped normal operations, there were still obstacles that would have shut them down.Quote:
Originally Posted by confucius say
The lack of PPE would have prevented them from operating normally. Maybe some rural hospitals could have gotten through, but there isn't a hospital in any metro area that could have withstood it because they didn't have basic supplies to care for non-COVID patients at full capacity. At one point in the not so distant past, they coming up with SOPs on how to re-use masks, gowns, etc.. The reason is because there wasn't a supply available and the stockpile was never replenished.
I think the supply chain is easing and hospitals are stockpiling, as you suggest, because they've learned that "just in time" inventory puts them in jeopardy if this were to flare up again in the fall.
To reiterate, I'm of the belief that a "one size fits all" approach is not the best approach. What happens in Jackson is not relevant to what happens in the very rural parts of MS. We obviously know more know than we did two months ago and realize that not all cases result in the need for ventilators or even hospital admission.
We just have a few on here now that are arm-chair QB'ing this situation after the fact and that undermines the totality of what we've experienced.
I agree that it's easy for folks to armchair qb now. That same thing applies to people criticizing Tate and trump too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gutter Cobreh
Question: if there was a shortage of PPE at some hospitals, where was the PPE supplies going? Other hospitals?
Where did all the toilet paper go???Quote:
Originally Posted by confucius say
I suspect supply couldn't meet the increased demand as hospitals were ramping up efforts thinking they were going to be overrun with COVID patients like Italy, but that is just my opinion. They'll eventually run through the supply they initially hoarded, but for a few weeks during March/April - there were severe shortages.
It's just evidence that we were not as prepared as we needed to be in the event of an emergency.
Toilet paper? I think to peoples houses.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gutter Cobreh
If some hospitals were ramping up efforts (which I read to mean stocking PPE), then those hospitals surely didn't have a shortage of PPE and could have stayed open fully. Adds to your point that it wasn't a one size fits all scenario.
It just sucks that we miscalculated things so poorly and now all these healthcare workers are being terminated.
It was also wrong for France not to invade Germany as soon as Hitler came to power. Hindsight is always 20/20.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cooterpoot
No you can't. If you can please post here where. The stuff we need is still really hard to get. You flat out don't know what you are talking about here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cooterpoot
They did so in hopes to off set German invasion of Poland Poland and France were allies.Quote:
Originally Posted by Liverpooldawg
If your going to spout off something understand the principles.
To add... hitler took power in Germany in 33. Germany invaded Poland in 39. France tried to invade western Germany in 39.
The TP comment was simply used as an example of one day - it's prevalent and easy to buy; and the next day - the shelves are empty.Quote:
Originally Posted by confucius say
As Johnson85 referenced, the burn rate of PPE is high on COVID quarantined units within hospitals. I don't know how much of what was purchased was hoarded or used for those facilities treating patients.
I don't know about the miscalculation regarding population health/quarantine, but the Feds drastically misappropriated the stimulus money. We hail healthcare workers with words of support, but when their employers are swamped now in financial ruins - the handouts have stopped. The Feds need another stimulus to help health organizations (especially rural hospitals) to stay somewhat in the green for the year. Otherwise, this will have a more drastic long-term impact to those communities than this pandemic.