Braves

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Originally Posted by smootness

I would be much more ok with saying, 'We'll never know what would have happened had we not brought in Kimbrel,' than, 'We'll never know what would have happened had we brought in Kimbrel'.

Again, I don't know how much you watch of the Braves, but Kimbrel is historically phenomenal. He is undoubtedly the best RP in the game, and is already putting up some of the best numbers of all-time. Carpenter had a very good year, but he had an ERA of over 8 last year, he didn't pitch very well in AAA to start the year, and it was the playoffs; given the fact that he had already been lit up earlier in the series, Carpenter, in a do-or-die situation, was nowhere near as good an option as Kimbrel.

Please stop trying to evaluate whether it was a good move or not by what I would say had Kimbrel blown it. First, I would not be complaining; it would have been the right move, and it would have been the move that I wanted him to make. Again, I didn't start complaining after the fact; I was already ticked that we didn't immediately bring him in, before the HR ever occurred.

And regardless, what fans will criticize someone for has nothing to do with whether it was the right move. Bringing Kimbrel in was the right move, period. If fans had criticized him for that, they would be the dumb ones. Instead, Fredi is.

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You really want to throw what Carpenter did in AAA as evidence that you are right? LOL. How about what he did in MLB? Which is more relevant since that is against the hitters that he actually faced.

I don't watch the Braves all the time- but I do know enough about Kimbrel to know that he starts to lose his command after about 25-30 pitches. I know enough that if Mike Matheny had done the exact same thing, I wouldn't be upset at him. I know enough that Kimbrel hasn't pitched two innings in a game since 2011 and has done it THREE times in all of 230+ MLB appearances.

But please, keep telling me how you were somehow right despite all of the mounting evidence that CLEARLY shows how huge of a risk bringing in Kimbrel would have been- while all the while you had another guy that had an ERA of 1.78 and over a K an inning sitting in the bullpen. Kimbrel has been phenomenal in ONE inning situations- not two.

You blame your manager for a move that pretty much every other manager in the game would have made and talk about how "dumb" he is- when you really need to be complaining about the pitcher hanging a breaking ball AFTER the batter pretty much gave him an 0-2 count, and the catcher that called three breaking balls in a row.

And by the way, I do think it's very fair to "evaluate what you would say had Kimbrel blown the game" because you have proven over and over on here that you like to argue for the sake of arguing no matter what.

He's been phenomenal in every situation. The only reason you can say it's been one inning as opposed to two is because he hasn't been asked to pitch two innings. Go look at Mariano Rivera's career. He doesn't pitch 2 innings in the regular season. But he does it often in the postseason because when you have a lead and have to win the game, you go with your best option.

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Originally Posted by smootness

He's been phenomenal in every situation. The only reason you can say it's been one inning as opposed to two is because he hasn't been asked to pitch two innings. Go look at Mariano Rivera's career. He doesn't pitch 2 innings in the regular season. But he does it often in the postseason because when you have a lead and have to win the game, you go with your best option.

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Sigh, aGAIN the last time Kimbrel was asked to pitch two innings he blew the save. Kimbrel is NOT Mariano Rivera. Some closers can do it- like Rivera. And some can't- like Kimbrel. All players are not equal- even if they both play the same position and are both good players. We've been over this before. Rivera is also not a max effort guy and has near perfect control. He's not going to get worn out nearly as quickly as a guy like Kimbrel.

I've got data and the Braves manager- who knows more about his players than you do whether you choose to believe it or not and whether you think he is a good manager or not on my side. You have the fact that you were playing chicken little and what you guessed might happen did happen on your side- without knowing the actual results of the move that you think might have been right. And all of that doesn't take into account the long term effects of wearing Kimbrel out and the ramifications that might have had later on in the playoffs.

But by all means as a National League fan- I hope Fredi "asks" Kimbrel to pitch two innings more so my team won't have to deal with him at his peak level of performance. Hey, Mariano Rivera did it right?

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Originally Posted by Todd4State

Sigh, aGAIN the last time Kimbrel was asked to pitch two innings he blew the save.

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small sample sizes are small sample sizes.

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Originally Posted by dawgs

small sample sizes are small sample sizes.

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Indeed. An that inning was a much higher leverage situation with Puig leading off than the 9th would have been. So even if he could only pitch one, it shoul have been the 8th. Dusty Baker spent many a night holding Chapman for the precious 9th in a save situation that he ended up losing before that inning even got there.

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Originally Posted by Todd4State

You really want to throw what Carpenter did in AAA as evidence that you are right? LOL. How about what he did in MLB? Which is more relevant since that is against the hitters that he actually faced.

I don't watch the Braves all the time- but I do know enough about Kimbrel to know that he starts to lose his command after about 25-30 pitches. I know enough that if Mike Matheny had done the exact same thing, I wouldn't be upset at him. I know enough that Kimbrel hasn't pitched two innings in a game since 2011 and has done it THREE times in all of 230+ MLB appearances.

But please, keep telling me how you were somehow right despite all of the mounting evidence that CLEARLY shows how huge of a risk bringing in Kimbrel would have been- while all the while you had another guy that had an ERA of 1.78 and over a K an inning sitting in the bullpen. Kimbrel has been phenomenal in ONE inning situations- not two.

You blame your manager for a move that pretty much every other manager in the game would have made and talk about how "dumb" he is- when you really need to be complaining about the pitcher hanging a breaking ball AFTER the batter pretty much gave him an 0-2 count, and the catcher that called three breaking balls in a row.

And by the way, I do think it's very fair to "evaluate what you would say had Kimbrel blown the game" because you have proven over and over on here that you like to argue for the sake of arguing no matter what.

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This argument really comes down to: should you always save your closer until the 9th? Fredi says yes. And you appear to be defending that view, which surprises me. Remember, part of the vitriol here comes from Fredi's responses. If he'd said he'd only left DC in because Uribe was bunting, It'd be different.

As to CK pitch count, I've never seen him get wild at higher pi5ch counts. In fact, it's normally the opposite, he starts wild then finds the zone. And you can always pitch him in the 8th then pull him if it took too many pitches to get thru the 8th. The point is to give yourself options, and choose the ones that give you the best chance of success, but Fredi doesn't do that. Flow chart Fredi. Keep in mind this is the same manager that ALWAYS pitches everyone in the pen before CK in tie games on the road. He just doesn't get bullpen management, and while this isn't the most egregious example of it he still deserves all the blame and no benefit of the doubt.

With all this talk of bring him in for one inning or two, Fredi's decisions, leaving Uggla off the roster, etc. - Just chalk it up to the fact that this is October and the Braves job is to choke in October. The only drama is how it will be done each year. Will be a pitchers giving up the late run (this year), our offense failing to score more than one run a game (most years), a base running mistake (Lonnie Anderson), Hrbek pulling Ron Gant off of first base, what? Once you realize that the fate will be the same it makes for much less stressful viewing. You could even set up an office pool on how they blow it in the post season next year.

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Originally Posted by starkvegasdawg

With all this talk of bring him in for one inning or two, Fredi's decisions, leaving Uggla off the roster, etc. - Just chalk it up to the fact that this is October and the Braves job is to choke in October. The only drama is how it will be done each year. Will be a pitchers giving up the late run (this year), our offense failing to score more than one run a game (most years), a base running mistake (Lonnie Anderson), Hrbek pulling Ron Gant off of first base, what? Once you realize that the fate will be the same it makes for much less stressful viewing. You could even set up an office pool on how they blow it in the post season next year.

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1995.

Besides, more often than not it's terrible decisions by Bobby Cox or his protege. That's why Braves fans have such a short fuse for it.

Hell, you're talking to a guy who celebrated when MLB changed the rules to allow injury replacements within a series, because it meant Cox didn't have to carry 3 catchers anymore.

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Originally Posted by BoomBoom

This argument really comes down to: should you always save your closer until the 9th? Fredi says yes. And you appear to be defending that view, which surprises me. Remember, part of the vitriol here comes from Fredi's responses. If he'd said he'd only left DC in because Uribe was bunting, It'd be different.

As to CK pitch count, I've never seen him get wild at higher pi5ch counts. In fact, it's normally the opposite, he starts wild then finds the zone. And you can always pitch him in the 8th then pull him if it took too many pitches to get thru the 8th. The point is to give yourself options, and choose the ones that give you the best chance of success, but Fredi doesn't do that. Flow chart Fredi. Keep in mind this is the same manager that ALWAYS pitches everyone in the pen before CK in tie games on the road. He just doesn't get bullpen management, and while this isn't the most egregious example of it he still deserves all the blame and no benefit of the doubt.

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Thank you.

Acting as though Fredi uses his closer according to what is most likely to work is crazy. He uses his closer as he has been taught to use the closer...namely, that you only bring him into a game if it is the 9th inning and you have a lead of 1-3 runs. Occasionally he will use him in a tie game from the 9th on at home but that is only because he knows he can't get a save in that game.

The only other times Kimbrel pitches, it is either because everyone else has been used, or because he hasn't pitched in x number of days and he needs innings.

It is all centered around 'the save', which is dumb, especially in an elimination game in the postseason.

No manager brings in their closer in that situation. EVER. It's Juan 17ing Uribe. A right handed batter that has tipped that he is going to bunt. You let the setup guy get the out the Dodgers are trying to give you. Thats the problem though. The Braves have no reliable setup pitchers. How many 7-8th inning pitchers could you get with BJ Upton's contract? Enough to not even think about bringing in your closer with zero outs in the 8th. That's little league shit.

The Braves' bullpen was great. The problem is, they all started becoming shaky near the end of the year, and the best two were out all year with injuries.

But yes, you do bring your closer in then, in an elimination game in the postseason. Again, not during the regular season, no; but there definitely are managers there who would do it, at least if it's David Carpenter vs. Craig Kimbrel.

It doesn't matter who is at the plate; one seeing-eye grounder would have tied it there, so you have to go all out to prevent the run. If you absolutely have to (can't imagine that ultimately happening), you can pull Kimbrel later. But you have to have him in there to try to put out the fire.

If there really are no managers who would do that, then they're all dumb. It isn't little league, it's smart baseball.

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Originally Posted by smootness

The Braves' bullpen was great. The problem is, they all started becoming shaky near the end of the year, and the best two were out all year with injuries.

But yes, you do bring your closer in then, in an elimination game in the postseason. Again, not during the regular season, no; but there definitely are managers there who would do it, at least if it's David Carpenter vs. Craig Kimbrel.

It doesn't matter who is at the plate; one seeing-eye grounder would have tied it there, so you have to go all out to prevent the run. If you absolutely have to (can't imagine that ultimately happening), you can pull Kimbrel later. But you have to have him in there to try to put out the fire.

If there really are no managers who would do that, then they're all dumb. It isn't little league, it's smart baseball.

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I get what you're saying, I really do but again the simple fact that all you can think of is Craig Kimbrel when you must have an out with 6 outs to go is why the Braves lost. They didn't lose to the Dodgers because of the players they had they lost because of the ones the front office failed to go get. Look at how many moves the Dodgers have made since Magic & Co. bought the team. If the Braves just make 1/4th those moves and focus on building for the postseason they would of won. 2 years ago the Dodgers didn't have 6 of the starting 8 hitters they ran out vs the Braves and I think only 1 of the 12 pitchers. That's insane.

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Originally Posted by Dawg61

I get what you're saying, I really do but again the simple fact that all you can think of is Craig Kimbrel when you must have an out with 6 outs to go is why the Braves lost. They didn't lose to the Dodgers because of the players they had they lost because of the ones the front office failed to go get. Look at how many moves the Dodgers have made since Magic & Co. bought the team. If the Braves just make 1/4th those moves and focus on building for the postseason they would of won. 2 years ago the Dodgers didn't have 6 of the starting 8 hitters they ran out vs the Braves and I think only 1 of the 12 pitchers. That's insane.

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So who on the braves would you cut? Heyward, Justin upton, Simmons, FF, and gattis are all young hitters with tremendous upside. Bj didnt work out this year, but I look for him to rebound next season. McCann is gone. I look for LeStella, pastornicky, or Pena to take over at 2b. Chris Johnson was outstanding this year at 3b. I really think moving gattis behind the plate, plugging one of the above in at 2b, and a bounce back year for bj will make this an outstanding hitting team next year.

Pitching... There's talk about the braves going for David price as our ace. Even if that doesn't work out beachy, minor, Teheran, medlen, and. Wood/hale could be a pretty good rotation. Venters should be back in the pen next season with carpenter, avilan, CK, walden, and Varvaro should be solid. Don't be surprised if EoF resigns at a bargain price.

The Braves made two huge blunders in signing BJ and Uggla. That's close to 25 million a year they could be spending on pitching with an emphasis on relief pitching. They need to somehow get out of those deals and spend it better. The Braves are not alone in this new battle vs the Dodgers. It's a huge problem for the entire NL. The Dodgers are spending more than the Yankees. No other teams can spend like them because nobody else has gotten a 6 BILLION dollar tv contract recently. This is the one thing I dislike most about the MLB. It's not equal playing fields. The NFL is MUCH better with parody amongst teams because they cap the spending. The NBA is more fair too.

This thread has literally lasted longer than the braves playoff run now.

Dawg61 I see your spending argument and give you the Angels and Athletics. Agreed about needing to spend that money on bullpen rather than BJ

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Originally Posted by Will James

Dawg61 I see your spending argument and give you the Angels and Athletics. Agreed about needing to spend that money on bullpen rather than BJ

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Braves bullpen was fine until injuries. EoF was a huge injury. Walden getting hurt at the end of the year was also a big blow. We traded for Scott downs who was death on lefties until September came. I like most of the moves the braves made, but the bj deal was a killer this year. I think bj bounces back next season

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Originally Posted by dawgs

small sample sizes are small sample sizes.

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If you're a Braves fan, you may not want a large sample size in this case.

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Originally Posted by Will James

Indeed. An that inning was a much higher leverage situation with Puig leading off than the 9th would have been. So even if he could only pitch one, it shoul have been the 8th. Dusty Baker spent many a night holding Chapman for the precious 9th in a save situation that he ended up losing before that inning even got there.

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So, I guess it would have been better to blow the game in the ninth with the same guys that blew the lead in the 6th, 7th, or 8th? I guess it is more exciting that way because it leads to more walk-off wins. And how do you know in game that you aren't going to have an even higher leverage situation in the 9th? Crystal ball? Base it off of your fans freaking out on a message board?

Not to mention the long term damage of forcing Chapman to get up and get down in the bullpen and throwing meaningless pitches in the pen.

Either way you cut it, the Reds obviously need to get better relief pitchers. That has nothing to do with a manager wanting a guy to get a save.

Higher leverage first off because it was the middle of the order. 9th would have been the bottom. Also much much higher with the leadoff man reaching 2nd base.