Braves

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Originally Posted by msstate7

I agree completely. I esp agree with part about bringing in CK once uribe wasn't bunting. McCann should catch some blame for calling 2 straight breaking balls though. After the blast, carpenter threw nothing but fastballs and got 3 easy outs. Carpenter throws 97 and after Garcia pitching all night that had to look like 108.

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McCann did the same thing with Teheran. though Teheran was shaking him off a lot too.

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Originally Posted by BoomBoom

McCann did the same thing with Teheran. though Teheran was shaking him off a lot too.

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I know it's hindsight and all, but I think laird would've done much better with Teheran in a road playoff start. Teheran was almost exclusively caught by laird early in the year and Gerald did a great job with him.

I know I've ripped McCann a lot, but I'm really disappointed with his terrible performance from sept till last night. In an elimination game, McCann almost got tossed for arguing strikes -- a really selfish act for a guy that's suppose to be a leader. He was 0 for 13 in this series, which makes him 12 for 49 (.209) in his postseason career. I've had enough of McCann. Wish him the best, but it's time to move on.

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Originally Posted by smootness

No. By definition it isn't hindsight if it is foresight.

I said before the inning that we should go with Carpenter until he allowed a baserunner. I said when he allowed the double that we should bring Kimbrel in. We didn't, we lost.

You can say that it doesn't prove bringing in Kimbrel would have been the right move, but it definitely isn't hindsight.

I don't know how much you watch the Braves, but I promise you, Fredi's decision was simply on 'feel'. Kimbrel has actually pitched 2 full innings 3 times before in the majors, he did it multiple times in the minors, he was too fresh in game 2, he had pitched one time in 10 games prior, it was an elimination game, he's the best pitcher in baseball, he said he could go 2 innings, and he wanted to do it.

You can tell me he would be second-guessed either way; I don't care about that. I care about making the right move, and the right move wasn't to leave Carpenter in there.

I'm not kidding, if you think Uribe might swing away with 2 strikes, you let Carpenter throw one off the plate, and if Uribe doesn't square to bunt, you bring Kimbrel in right there. It was our last game of the season, assuming we didn't win. We had to win. We had to give ourselves the best chance to win, and that was to have Kimbrel on the mound as soon as he could go. Period. Everything else is just trying to make excuses for it.

You can't manage game 4 in a 5-game series when down 2-1 like you do game 114. That is the kind of thinking that has held the Braves back for years in the playoffs, and it has to change or we will keep doing this. Over and over and over and over.

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Kimbrel has pitched more than two innings three times in his career including the postseason (I'm assuming that's the third game because I only found two two inning appearances during the regular season) Two of those were in 2010 when he first came up- one was a blow out loss to Tampa and one was in the postseason against the Giants. The LAST time he went two innings- 2011. He blew the save. And unless I'm overlooking it, he hasn't had a two inning outing since in a regular or postseason game.

I agree that you don't manage an elimination game like you do game 114- but you also don't put your players in a position where they are not likely to succeed either. And let's not act like David Carpenter is a garbage pitcher- this is a guy with an ERA of 1.78 who had 74 K's in 65 IP and had only allowed 5 home runs all year. His WHIP was 0.999

And maybe this is my foresight kicking in here- but I have a feeling that if Fredi had brought in Kimbrel when you wanted him to he would have blown the lead in the ninth from being worn out, and you would probably be complaining about the fact that he hasn't pitched two innings since 2011 and how stupid it was and how he should have pitched Carpenter. Let's be honest here- it's quite possible you were screwed either way. The only thing that is known is what happened with Carpenter, and we'll never truly know what would have happened with Kimbrel.

But I also don't think you can sit there and say "oh gee, that was a stupid managerial decision".

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Originally Posted by msstate7

I agree completely. I esp agree with part about bringing in CK once uribe wasn't bunting. McCann should catch some blame for calling 2 straight breaking balls though. After the blast, carpenter threw nothing but fastballs and got 3 easy outs. Carpenter throws 97 and after Garcia pitching all night that had to look like 108.

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This is an excellent point. If you're going to get beat, get beat by your best pitch.

Wow this has gotten to 7 pages!

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Originally Posted by Dawg61

Wow this has gotten to 7 pages!

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Yep, this thread has lasted longer than a actual MLB game. Just barely though.

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Originally Posted by Dawg61

You mean like the HS coach in Texas winning 80%+ of all his games that NEVER punts and always kicks onside kicks and goes for 2? It's coming to a small college soon.

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exactly. i think there's one in arkansas too. bill barnwell on grantland writes a lot of good stuff analyzing when you should go for it on 4th and go for 2 and what not. if the odds of converting 4th down are greater than 32%, you should always go for it according to the numbers fwiw.

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Originally Posted by Todd4State

Let's be honest here- it's quite possible you were screwed either way. The only thing that is known is what happened with Carpenter, and we'll never truly know what would have happened with Kimbrel.

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I would be much more ok with saying, 'We'll never know what would have happened had we not brought in Kimbrel,' than, 'We'll never know what would have happened had we brought in Kimbrel'.

Again, I don't know how much you watch of the Braves, but Kimbrel is historically phenomenal. He is undoubtedly the best RP in the game, and is already putting up some of the best numbers of all-time. Carpenter had a very good year, but he had an ERA of over 8 last year, he didn't pitch very well in AAA to start the year, and it was the playoffs; given the fact that he had already been lit up earlier in the series, Carpenter, in a do-or-die situation, was nowhere near as good an option as Kimbrel.

Please stop trying to evaluate whether it was a good move or not by what I would say had Kimbrel blown it. First, I would not be complaining; it would have been the right move, and it would have been the move that I wanted him to make. Again, I didn't start complaining after the fact; I was already ticked that we didn't immediately bring him in, before the HR ever occurred.

And regardless, what fans will criticize someone for has nothing to do with whether it was the right move. Bringing Kimbrel in was the right move, period. If fans had criticized him for that, they would be the dumb ones. Instead, Fredi is.

http://deadspin.com/report-braves-pl...rst-1442463473

lol, how did i miss this the last couple of days?

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Originally Posted by dawgs

http://deadspin.com/report-braves-pl...rst-1442463473

lol, how did i miss this the last couple of days?

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I knew chipper picked the dodgers and ruffled the braves' feathers, but I didn't know that no one was willing to catch his pitch.

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Originally Posted by msstate7

I knew chipper picked the dodgers and ruffled the braves' feathers, but I didn't know that no one was willing to catch his pitch.

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you'd think the braves would have wanted to go out and prove him wrong instead of getting pissy about his opening pitch and proving him right. along with just reinforcing everyone's opinion (except braves fans) that the braves squad is full of a bunch of turds.

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Originally Posted by smootness

I would be much more ok with saying, 'We'll never know what would have happened had we not brought in Kimbrel,' than, 'We'll never know what would have happened had we brought in Kimbrel'.

Again, I don't know how much you watch of the Braves, but Kimbrel is historically phenomenal. He is undoubtedly the best RP in the game, and is already putting up some of the best numbers of all-time. Carpenter had a very good year, but he had an ERA of over 8 last year, he didn't pitch very well in AAA to start the year, and it was the playoffs; given the fact that he had already been lit up earlier in the series, Carpenter, in a do-or-die situation, was nowhere near as good an option as Kimbrel.

Please stop trying to evaluate whether it was a good move or not by what I would say had Kimbrel blown it. First, I would not be complaining; it would have been the right move, and it would have been the move that I wanted him to make. Again, I didn't start complaining after the fact; I was already ticked that we didn't immediately bring him in, before the HR ever occurred.

And regardless, what fans will criticize someone for has nothing to do with whether it was the right move. Bringing Kimbrel in was the right move, period. If fans had criticized him for that, they would be the dumb ones. Instead, Fredi is.

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I'll add two things here, one for each side:

The Braves needed 9 more wins, not just 1. You can't pitch CK for all the relief innings. Carpenter needed to pitch meaningful innings at some point, might as well put him right back on the horse.

CK pitched a 2 inning save in 2010 NLDS. Of his 4 Ks in that appearance, one was of Juan Uribe.

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Originally Posted by BoomBoom

I'll add two things here, one for each side:

The Braves needed 9 more wins, not just 1. You can't pitch CK for all the relief innings. Carpenter needed to pitch meaningful innings at some point, might as well put him right back on the horse.

CK pitched a 2 inning save in 2010 NLDS. Of his 4 Ks in that appearance, one was of Juan Uribe.

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Good lord let it go. The Braves had all year to find late inning pitchers. They should of been prepared by the GM and front office. Injuries and inability to acquire pitching on the market busted out the Braves this year. You can't ask CK to close 2 innings in LA. That's unrealistic.

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Originally Posted by Dawg61

Good lord let it go. The Braves had all year to find late inning pitchers. They should of been prepared by the GM and front office. Injuries and inability to acquire pitching on the market busted out the Braves this year. You can't ask CK to close 2 innings in LA. That's unrealistic.

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Unrealistic? Was it unrealistic for kershaw to start a game 3 days after throwing a 124 pitches? Maybe, but kershaw wanted the ball. CK wanted the ball for the last 6 outs. Mattingly trusted the best starter in mlb and fredi didnt trust the best reliever in mlb. The team that went with their best is playing on. The team that didnt is home

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Originally Posted by msstate7

Unrealistic? Was it unrealistic for kershaw to start a game 3 days after throwing a 124 pitches? Maybe, but kershaw wanted the ball. CK wanted the ball for the last 6 outs. Mattingly trusted the best starter in mlb and fredi didnt trust the best reliever in mlb. The team that went with their best is playing on. The team that didnt is home

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It'll bite the Dodgers in the ass vs the Cards. Their lack of starters after Kershaw and Grienke will be exposed soon.

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Originally Posted by Dawg61

It'll bite the Dodgers in the ass vs the Cards. Their lack of starters after Kershaw and Grienke will be exposed soon.

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I like the cards too.

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Originally Posted by Dawg61

It'll bite the Dodgers in the ass vs the Cards. Their lack of starters after Kershaw and Grienke will be exposed soon.

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pretty sure they are set to go with grienke in game 1 and kershaw in game 2 on full rest. they'll be fine. ryu is also an above average SP3 and nolasco has been an above avg SP4 since he joined the dodgers, especially in LA where his era is something like 2.50. the cards have far bigger questions behind wainwright imo.

grienke
kershaw
ryu
nolasco

v.

kelly
wacha
wainwright
lynn

i'd take the dodgers easy, especially with both grienke and kershaw lined up for 2 start apiece if needed.

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Originally Posted by Dawg61

Good lord let it go. The Braves had all year to find late inning pitchers. They should of been prepared by the GM and front office. Injuries and inability to acquire pitching on the market busted out the Braves this year. You can't ask CK to close 2 innings in LA. That's unrealistic.

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lulz, not unrealistic at all. i agree it was fine starting with carpenter in the 8th until a guy got on and letting him throw to uribe once it was apparent uribe was looking to bunt. just the worst possible confluence of events happened in that uribe AB to bite the braves in the ass. couldn't have happened to a better bunch though.

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Originally Posted by dawgs

lulz, not unrealistic at all. i agree it was fine starting with carpenter in the 8th until a guy got on and letting him throw to uribe once it was apparent uribe was looking to bunt. just the worst possible confluence of events happened in that uribe AB to bite the braves in the ass. couldn't have happened to a better bunch though.

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Hey...watch it

I got the Dodgers over the Cards