Henderson

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06-11-2018, 07:26 AM
Cooterpoot

Making a CWS isn’t enough for me. Ron did it when we were trying to fire him.
06-11-2018, 07:34 AM
msstate7

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cooterpoot

Making a CWS isn’t enough for me. Ron did it when we were trying to fire him.

No one's first choice is Henderson. If we start reaching though, we have a guy that has won here
06-11-2018, 07:50 AM
Liverpooldawg

I don't think there is any way that you can not offer him the job now. Some of y'all are going to have to face the fact that he has done a really good job this year. He got the job in some of the worst possible circumstances, with a team in a tailspin, and righted the ship and sailed it to Omaha.
06-11-2018, 08:53 AM
MetEdDawg

Quote:

Originally Posted by Liverpooldawg

I don't think there is any way that you can not offer him the job now. Some of y'all are going to have to face the fact that he has done a really good job this year. He got the job in some of the worst possible circumstances, with a team in a tailspin, and righted the ship and sailed it to Omaha.

People don't want to hear that. They are convinced Henderson ran UK into the ground and sucks. They are wrong. He was consistently average at UK which is basically what they've always been except for a couple times while Cohen was there. But if we are being honest, Cohen left him with little talent which is why Henderson started slow and he was the HC in a part of the division that had Florida, Vandy, and SC during some very prime years for those programs.

But guess who just got done having the most draft picks by any school in the country? Kentucky. They had 13 players drafted. And you can talk about the job Mingione has done but a lot of those players were recruited and initially developed by Henderson.

I believe there is a pretty false narrative going on about Henderson. He's head coach and pitching coach. The burden is too much, especially if you are managing pitchers, to do both. I think Henderson would be an extremely effective HC if he had a pitching coach come on board, which would 100% happen. Some of you are hammering Henderson for making decisions about the same things you hammered Mullen on for being a HC and calling plays. Except Henderson doesn't have a choice right now so of course some things ar going to fall through and some decisions won't make sense.

We have an ignorant fan base if we as fan are seriously not at least considering Henderson. I'm not saying offer him the job, but to say absolutely not is beyond ignorant. A lot of folks are dismissing him this year to make themselves feel better and hold on to the narrative that he's not good and we can get someone much better. He helped hold this together. You can give players and assistant some credit. But ultimately players feed off their HC. So do not dismiss what Henderson has done to hold this team together. He's done a lot and proven he's capable of taking us to Omaha.
06-11-2018, 08:55 AM
Cooterpoot

Quote:

Originally Posted by Liverpooldawg

I don't think there is any way that you can not offer him the job now. Some of y'all are going to have to face the fact that he has done a really good job this year. He got the job in some of the worst possible circumstances, with a team in a tailspin, and righted the ship and sailed it to Omaha.

Meh, Cohen is paid big money to make good decisions. Again, making the CWS doesn't automatically give someone the job. Many were ready to fire him simply for the job he's done with our pitchers. Our freshmen hitters grew up and made the adjustment to SEC pitching. We still struggle to find a starter than can go more than 4 innings. We're 11th in the SEC in pitching, which is Henderson's group. We were 12th in fielding.
Appreciate Henderson for keeping it between the ditches until our freshmen grew up. Still don't want him as our HC. Only way that changes for me is if he wins it. This is going to be a split fan base situation on Henderson otherwise.
06-11-2018, 09:01 AM
BrunswickDawg

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cooterpoot

He came in before Cohen left. He’s been over 2 years.

Henderson was hired June 17, 2016 after being let go by Kentucky and after Vern Troyer left for Arkansas. Cohen became AD in October 2016 and Cann was hired. Henderson never actually coached a game with Cohen. And since this is just June 11 - he has been here less than 2 years.
06-11-2018, 09:06 AM
KOdawg1

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cooterpoot

Meh, Cohen is paid big money to make good decisions. Again, making the CWS doesn't automatically give someone the job. Many were ready to fire him simply for the job he's done with our pitchers. Our freshmen hitters grew up and made the adjustment to SEC pitching. We still struggle to find a starter than can go more than 4 innings. We're 11th in the SEC in pitching, which is Henderson's group. We were 12th in fielding.
Appreciate Henderson for keeping it between the ditches until our freshmen grew up. Still don't want him as our HC. Only way that changes for me is if he wins it. This is going to be a split fan base situation on Henderson otherwise.

Yep, and it'll be all that is talked about around here this week instead of Omaha I'm afraid.
06-11-2018, 09:07 AM
Cooterpoot

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrunswickDawg

Henderson was hired June 17, 2016 after being let go by Kentucky and after Vern Troyer left for Arkansas. Cohen became AD in October 2016 and Cann was hired. Henderson never actually coached a game with Cohen. And since this is just June 11 - he has been here less than 2 years.

So, he didn't work with the pitchers from that point until now? You're giving him half the year off from a development standpoint? I wasn't simply talking recruiting. Our pitchers haven't developed either. Right now, the hottest pitcher we've got isn't even coming back next year. We return Small and Self basically. The rest is a lot of unknowns and some JC transfers. In two+ years, we've not signed a bunch of stud pitchers. Ash is the only guy out hurt that you might claim to be a good one. Elevated pitch counts and walks have gone through the roof since Gary took over. ERA is up there too.
And I get that people believe you reward a good guy whose team has taken off the last month of the season. I get that. But I'm looking at what we've done since he's been here. Not just the last month.
06-11-2018, 09:13 AM
tcdog70

Quote:

Originally Posted by preachermatt83

They were throwing MLB guys at us. We pitch self we win. End of story.

do you now see how stupid this statement was? the next day we pitched Him and he blew a 3 run lead--read more post less
06-11-2018, 09:19 AM
preachermatt83

Quote:

Originally Posted by tcdog70

do you now see how stupid this statement was? the next day we pitched Him and he blew a 3 run lead--read more post less

I love your obsession with me. Why even open threads I start if I should post less? I feel like I should be paying you rent.
06-11-2018, 09:20 AM
basedog

Only split with Msu baseball fans would be on Elite Dawgs, once a Dawg always a Dawg!

I don't think Hendo is our future but I will be damn if I'm pissed and mad about him being given the HC job next year. If you are then you surely aren't real Maroon!

Cohen knows what he is doing, we shall see who he chooses and I will be rooting for our next Coach, not bitching.
06-11-2018, 09:27 AM
tcdog70

Quote:

Originally Posted by preachermatt83

I love your obsession with me. Why even open threads I start if I should post less? I feel like I should be paying you rent.

i'm not picking on you. You post some good stuff--but boy you post some shitty stuff and I just like to show you how wrong you are. Your Post was like it was written in stone that if you bring Self in we win--wrong. Usually the Coaches know best- Does Henderson tell you what to preach? if you go back and read your baseball post you will see you are wrong more than you are right. And when you are wrong it is glaring.
06-11-2018, 09:29 AM
tcdog70

Quote:

Originally Posted by basedog

Only split with Msu baseball fans would be on Elite Dawgs, once a Dawg always a Dawg!

I don't think Hendo is our future but I will be damn if I'm pissed and mad about him being given the HC job next year. If you are then you surely aren't real Maroon!

Cohen knows what he is doing, we shall see who he chooses and I will be rooting for our next Coach, not bitching.

this all day
06-11-2018, 09:41 AM
Cooterpoot

Quote:

Originally Posted by basedog

Only split with Msu baseball fans would be on Elite Dawgs, once a Dawg always a Dawg!

I don't think Hendo is our future but I will be damn if I'm pissed and mad about him being given the HC job next year. If you are then you surely aren't real Maroon!

Cohen knows what he is doing, we shall see who he chooses and I will be rooting for our next Coach, not bitching.

I won't say it'll just be on here, because it's on the other sites around too and people are talking about it. But I'm with you. Cohen has to look out for our future.
06-11-2018, 09:41 AM
BrunswickDawg

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cooterpoot

So, he didn't work with the pitchers from that point until now? You're giving him half the year off from a development standpoint? I wasn't simply talking recruiting. Our pitchers haven't developed either. Right now, the hottest pitcher we've got isn't even coming back next year. We return Small and Self basically. The rest is a lot of unknowns and some JC transfers. In two+ years, we've not signed a bunch of stud pitchers. Ash is the only guy out hurt that you might claim to be a good one. Elevated pitch counts and walks have gone through the roof since Gary took over. ERA is up there too.
And I get that people believe you reward a good guy whose team has taken off the last month of the season. I get that. But I'm looking at what we've done since he's been here. Not just the last month.

I didn't state any kind of judgement about Hendu. You said he had been here more than 2 years. I provided info that you were incorrect.

Now, as for your other statements - lets look at 2017 v 2018.

Pilk (2017) 3.08 8-5, 111k - (2018) 4.56, 2-6, 103 k
Self (2017) 3.72 5-2, 8 sv - (2018) 3.51, 5-0, 1 sv
Billingsley (2017) 4.78, 2-3 52 k - (2018) 4.92, 5-3, 71k
McQ (2017) 5.20, 3-4, 40k - (2018) 4.97, 2-2, 31k
Smith - (2017) hurt - (2018) 3.00, 4-0, 20k
Small - (2017) hurt - (2018) 3.11, 5-3, 112 k

13 pitchers from '17 not here in '18 (14 if you count Breaux).

How can you actually judge the progression of our staff under Henderson when you are only talking about 4 guys who have been here the whole time? He essentially was dealing with an entirely new pitching staff in '18 versus what he had in '17. Throw on top of it that in the fall our practice schedule was so out of whack, and the Cann situation.

The major elephant in the room is what were the expectations and accountability under Cann? We heard rumors on this board of team issues this past offseason. With Cann's issues I find it hard to believe that he was holding players accountable and making sure they were putting in the work needed. It was apparent as hell early in the season that under Cann's leadership, this team came in out of shape and not mentally prepared for the season. If you listen to Jake's interviews, he has even mentioned that one of the big changes during the season with Henderson was that he held them accountable. That says to me that Cann didn't, and Henderson was picking up the pieces of something that was far worse than most of us want to admit. Have the pitcher's progressed from '17 to '18 - probably not - but that is as much or more on Cann and the players as it is on Henderson. If you want to judge the progression of our pitchers - look at how they progressed during this season, and I think you have a much better look at Hendu's impact.
06-11-2018, 09:45 AM
Cooterpoot

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrunswickDawg

I didn't state any kind of judgement about Hendu. You said he had been here more than 2 years. I provided info that you were incorrect.

Now, as for your other statements - lets look at 2017 v 2018.

Pilk (2017) 3.08 8-5, 111k - (2018) 4.56, 2-6, 103 k
Self (2017) 3.72 5-2, 8 sv - (2018) 3.51, 5-0, 1 sv
Billingsley (2017) 4.78, 2-3 52 k - (2018) 4.92, 5-3, 71k
McQ (2017) 5.20, 3-4, 40k - (2018) 4.97, 2-2, 31k
Smith - (2017) hurt - (2018) 3.00, 4-0, 20k
Small - (2017) hurt - (2018) 3.11, 5-3, 112 k

13 pitchers from '17 not here in '18 (14 if you count Breaux).

How can you actually judge the progression of our staff under Henderson when you are only talking about 4 guys who have been here the whole time? He essentially was dealing with an entirely new pitching staff in '18 versus what he had in '17. Throw on top of it that in the fall our practice schedule was so out of whack, and the Cann situation.

The major elephant in the room is what were the expectations and accountability under Cann? We heard rumors on this board of team issues this past offseason. With Cann's issues I find it hard to believe that he was holding players accountable and making sure they were putting in the work needed. It was apparent as hell early in the season that under Cann's leadership, this team came in out of shape and not mentally prepared for the season. If you listen to Jake's interviews, he has even mentioned that one of the big changes during the season with Henderson was that he held them accountable. That says to me that Cann didn't, and Henderson was picking up the pieces of something that was far worse than most of us want to admit. Have the pitcher's progressed from '17 to '18 - probably not - but that is as much or more on Cann and the players as it is on Henderson.

Ok, you tell me why we should hire Gary. I'm listening.
06-11-2018, 09:45 AM
shoeless joe

Quote:

Originally Posted by MetEdDawg

People don't want to hear that. They are convinced Henderson ran UK into the ground and sucks. They are wrong. He was consistently average at UK which is basically what they've always been except for a couple times while Cohen was there. But if we are being honest, Cohen left him with little talent which is why Henderson started slow and he was the HC in a part of the division that had Florida, Vandy, and SC during some very prime years for those programs.

But guess who just got done having the most draft picks by any school in the country? Kentucky. They had 13 players drafted. And you can talk about the job Mingione has done but a lot of those players were recruited and initially developed by Henderson.

I believe there is a pretty false narrative going on about Henderson. He's head coach and pitching coach. The burden is too much, especially if you are managing pitchers, to do both. I think Henderson would be an extremely effective HC if he had a pitching coach come on board, which would 100% happen. Some of you are hammering Henderson for making decisions about the same things you hammered Mullen on for being a HC and calling plays. Except Henderson doesn't have a choice right now so of course some things ar going to fall through and some decisions won't make sense.

We have an ignorant fan base if we as fan are seriously not at least considering Henderson. I'm not saying offer him the job, but to say absolutely not is beyond ignorant. A lot of folks are dismissing him this year to make themselves feel better and hold on to the narrative that he's not good and we can get someone much better. He helped hold this together. You can give players and assistant some credit. But ultimately players feed off their HC. So do not dismiss what Henderson has done to hold this team together. He's done a lot and proven he's capable of taking us to Omaha.

And a large percent of these young guys he's led to Omaha are coming back
06-11-2018, 09:49 AM
Randolph Dupree

At the end of the day all coaches are hired guns. Despite all the talk about baseball being different and coaches staying put, the bottom line is that they make decisions on where they coach based upon opportunity and what's best for them. Not the school and not the players. Make no mistake, it's a business even at the college level. Cohen will view it from this perspective because he makes decisions based on what's best for MSU athletics long term. Henderson has earned the right to be considered for the position, but at the end of the day if he doesn't get it MSU will compensate him handsomely and we will part ways. No harm no foul. That's how it works. With that being said, I still don't think Henderson is the guy (and I like the guy). Henderson is 57 years old (I think that's right), and has had a great career as a pitching coach but a sub par career as a head coach with not a lot of time to establish a winning legacy. That's important long term, because in 5-7 years he will be recruiting and kids will have to ask themselves if they want to go to a school where the guy they committed to may not be there two or three years later. If Hendo had a winning legacy, that's not as big of an issue (think Saban, he's up there in age but if you get a chance to play for him you generally do it) If we hire Henderson, it's merely a stop gap. If that's what Cohen thinks is best for us then so be it and I will get behind the hire. If he goes with someone else then I will understand that also.

For now all we know is that we've caught lightning in a bottle with a scrappy group of young men and we should all be proud and enjoy the ride. HAIL STATE!
06-11-2018, 09:52 AM
Cooterpoot

Quote:

Originally Posted by Randolph Dupree

At the end of the day all coaches are hired guns. Despite all the talk about baseball being different and coaches staying put, the bottom line is that they make decisions on where they coach based upon opportunity and what's best for them. Not the school and not the players. Make no mistake, it's a business even at the college level. Cohen will view it from this perspective because he makes decisions based on what's best for MSU athletics long term. Henderson has earned the right to be considered for the position, but at the end of the day if he doesn't get it MSU will compensate him handsomely and we will part ways. No harm no foul. That's how it works. With that being said, I still don't think Henderson is the guy (and I like the guy). Henderson is 57 years old (I think that's right), and has had a great career as a pitching coach but a sub par career as a head coach with not a lot of time to establish a winning legacy. That's important long term, because in 5-7 years he will be recruiting and kids will have to ask themselves if they want to go to a school where the guy they committed to may not be there two or three years later. If Hendo had a winning legacy, that's not as big of an issue (think Saban, he's up there in age but if you get a chance to play for him you generally do it) If we hire Henderson, it's merely a stop gap. If that's what Cohen thinks is best for us then so be it and I will get behind the hire. If he goes with someone else then I will understand that also.

For now all we know is that we've caught lightning in a bottle with a scrappy group of young men and we should all be proud and enjoy the ride. HAIL STATE!

^^^^^This
06-11-2018, 09:54 AM
Liverpooldawg

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cooterpoot

Ok, you tell me why we should hire Gary. I'm listening.

The changes for the better during this season have been just a little short of miraculous. You have to offer it to him. A lot of people act like going to Omaha is a MSU birthright. It's not. We are way behind the true blue bloods in that stat.

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