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10-08-2013, 01:29 PM
RougeDawg

Quote:

Originally Posted by msstate7

If I was the braves manager, I would start gattis at catcher tonight. Gotta have gattis' bat, but he's terrible in lf. McCann has been ice cold and he's lefty vs kershaw. I'd start reed Johnson as 3rd outfielder. Reed kills lefties and has a decent glove

Maybe McCann would be hitting a little better if he put as much effort into it as he does talkin shit and going after opposing hitters after they pimp yard work. He's a pansy and it's been showing as of late. Glad to see the braves sent packin.
10-08-2013, 02:35 PM
dawgs

Quote:

Originally Posted by msstate7

Gattis doesn't get the credit he deserves. Here's puig's stats vs gattis':

Puig -- 382 ab's 19 hr's 42 rbi's .319 avg

Gattis -- 354 ab's 21 hr's 65 rbi's
.243 avg

Puig is definitely a better hitter as far as average, but gattis produces with his hits more. In 18 less at bats, gattis drove in 23 more rbi's.

if you knew anything about baseball, you'd know that RBIs are dependent on lineup spot and the performance of the guys surrounding you in the lineup. puig batted 1st or 2nd in a NL lineup most of the season. the pitcher isn't exactly going to give him many RBI opportunities. gattis batted 4th or 5th most of the season. of course he's gonna have more RBIs simply because he had way more opportunities.

the same argument would apply when trying to argue that puig has 66 Rs while gattis only has 44 Rs, just in reverse.
10-08-2013, 02:43 PM
dawgs

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dawg61

Puig might be better than Bryce Harper.

puig makes far too many mental mistakes right now and has about 1/10th of the plate discipline of harper. harper was on his way to having a monster year before he hurt his knee at the end of april and it lingered all season. hopefully next year he doesn't unnecessarily run into walls chasing fly balls and has his big breakout.

puig could be a vlad guerrero type, but he does need to prove for more than 2/3 of a season that his lack of BBs won't have a larger effect on his game.
10-08-2013, 05:18 PM
Todd4State

Quote:

Originally Posted by smootness

Pitchers are developing injuries at least as much as they ever have before. Pitchers are now routinely having at least one TJ surgery in their career, sometimes before they're even drafted, and in the past, that literally ended someone's career.

Meanwhile, Nolan Ryan and the Rangers are having their pitchers throw harder and more often, and they seem to be among the best at avoiding injuries recently.

But you're kidding yourself if you think Fredi Gonzalez cares about numbers. He said a couple years ago that he felt like Schafer was getting on base more and was better than both Heyward and McLouth, despite his OBP and all his other numbers being lower than the other two. That was his defense for playing Schafer over them.

He manages on feel, and he is very old-school in that he doesn't do anything that is outside convention. Runner on first, time to bunt him over. Closer hasn't ever gotten 6 outs before, can't do it; must have him pitch the 9th because he's the 'closer' and he's trying to get a 'save'.

If he is actually trying to analyze spring training numbers as a way to make decisions in the postseason, that would exhibit A as to why he is making poor decisions.

Fredi doesn't know what Kimbrel can handle because he's never let him try, even in the biggest game we played all year, when we absolutely had to stop a run from scoring. Again, pitch him in the 8th and find somebody else later if you need them. There's nothing that says once your closer enters, he will remain in the game for the remainder no matter what happens. We needed him right then, and he wasn't used. That's inexplicable.

I'll put it to you this way, which do you think had a better chance of ending the game with a W:
a) Carpenter pitches the rest of the 8th with a runner on 2nd (that he allowed a 2B to) and no outs, with Kimbrel pitching the 9th, OR
b) Kimbrel pitches the rest of the 8th with a runner on 2nd and no outs, then returns for the 9th.

To me, it isn't even a question. It's Kimbrel every time. In the regular season, you may keep Carpenter in because even if you lose, it's one game and you can't just throw Kimbrel constantly in every game.
In an elimination game, you pull the trigger. That is the primary difference between the Braves and organizations like the Cardinals. They know the playoffs are different, we don't seem to get that.

While the Rangers do have a proactive throwing program, they still use their bullpen like everyone else in MLB. It's laughable at best to suggest that a manager doesn't know his players that he is around 8-9 months of the year. Getting four outs is pretty specific- and not "conventional". That tells me he knows what Kimbrel can and can't do- whether you want to believe it or not.

As far as your Carpenter/Kimbrel scenario- I would have gone with Carpenter to get Uribe because again- I knew they were likely going to bunt. (Todd was right) Why waste Kimbrel on that? I expect ANY pitcher to get a guy bunting out. If Carpenter gets an 0-2 count on someone, I expect him to not hang a breaking ball that is going to get hit to the Sunset Strip. So, now you likely have a runner on third and one out- and THEN you bring in Kimbrel because you need a strike out at that point. And then you go forward.

Again- you are operating on hindsight. Even if you deny it. Sometimes a manager makes a move that is not a bad move and it simply doesn't work out. What if he had brought Kimbrel in and then he gets worn out because he has gone longer than normal- then Fredi gets questioned for that. Bring in Mike Minor? Please. A starting pitcher is going to take even longer to get ready than a normal relief pitcher plus how many relief appearances does Minor have? And on the flip side- if Fredi brings Kimbrel in and it works out- hey, great. But it's risky and sometimes that works out- like the Dodgers pitching Kershaw on short rest. But if it doesn't, he's going to have to live it down. As it is, I don't think the manager made a bad decision in this case.
10-08-2013, 05:48 PM
dawgs

wait, someone is defending fredi gonzalez as an in-game strategist? i just assumed that everyone accepted he was a mediocre at best in-game manager.
10-08-2013, 05:53 PM
msstate7

Quote:

Originally Posted by dawgs

wait, someone is defending fredi gonzalez as an in-game strategist? i just assumed that everyone accepted he was a mediocre at best in-game manager.

A cardinal fan. I'm sure dodger fans think he's doing great also.
10-08-2013, 06:04 PM
Will James

Quote:

Originally Posted by smootness

Gattis wasn't a better hitter than McCann. His OPS was 26 points lower; his OBP was below .300.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dawgs

i'd be shocked if he ever hits above .280 for a full season without a ridiculous amount of BABIP luck.

I am succeeding
10-08-2013, 06:05 PM
msstate7

Leyland brings his ace (scherzer) in 7th inning for relief. Mattingly starts kershaw on 3 days rest. Fredi wouldn't let his best pitcher get an extra inning even after CK asked for the ball.
10-08-2013, 06:07 PM
BoomBoom

Quote:

Originally Posted by Todd4State

While the Rangers do have a proactive throwing program, they still use their bullpen like everyone else in MLB. It's laughable at best to suggest that a manager doesn't know his players that he is around 8-9 months of the year. Getting four outs is pretty specific- and not "conventional". That tells me he knows what Kimbrel can and can't do- whether you want to believe it or not.

As far as your Carpenter/Kimbrel scenario- I would have gone with Carpenter to get Uribe because again- I knew they were likely going to bunt. (Todd was right) Why waste Kimbrel on that? I expect ANY pitcher to get a guy bunting out. If Carpenter gets an 0-2 count on someone, I expect him to not hang a breaking ball that is going to get hit to the Sunset Strip. So, now you likely have a runner on third and one out- and THEN you bring in Kimbrel because you need a strike out at that point. And then you go forward.

Again- you are operating on hindsight. Even if you deny it. Sometimes a manager makes a move that is not a bad move and it simply doesn't work out. What if he had brought Kimbrel in and then he gets worn out because he has gone longer than normal- then Fredi gets questioned for that. Bring in Mike Minor? Please. A starting pitcher is going to take even longer to get ready than a normal relief pitcher plus how many relief appearances does Minor have? And on the flip side- if Fredi brings Kimbrel in and it works out- hey, great. But it's risky and sometimes that works out- like the Dodgers pitching Kershaw on short rest. But if it doesn't, he's going to have to live it down. As it is, I don't think the manager made a bad decision in this case.

Fredi has had a rep on bullpen management from long before that one example "Flow-chart Fredi".

Btw, let me remind you how the Braves last postseason series ended: Bobby Cox lifted a rookie flamethrower, 40 Ks and ridiculously low ERA in 20 IP since called up, after he gave up a seeing-eye single, to go to basic generic lefty vs a guy who hits lefties better than righties. that rookie was Craig Kimbrel.
10-08-2013, 06:07 PM
Todd4State

Quote:

Originally Posted by dawgs

wait, someone is defending fredi gonzalez as an in-game strategist? i just assumed that everyone accepted he was a mediocre at best in-game manager.

He's no LaRussa. But whenever Fredi gets fired- and it will happen at some point- I highly doubt not bringing in Kimbrel will be brought up.
10-08-2013, 06:12 PM
Will James

wRC+

Puig - 160
McCann - 122
Gattis - 110

wOBA

Puig - .398
McCann - .347
Gattis - .329
10-08-2013, 06:14 PM
Todd4State

Quote:

Originally Posted by BoomBoom

Fredi has had a rep on bullpen management from long before that one example "Flow-chart Fredi".

Btw, let me remind you how the Braves last postseason series ended: Bobby Cox lifted a rookie flamethrower, 40 Ks and ridiculously low ERA in 20 IP since called up, after he gave up a seeing-eye single, to go to basic generic lefty vs a guy who hits lefties better than righties. that rookie was Craig Kimbrel.

I absolutely agree that Fredi is not the best manager out there right now overall. Does- he do some questionable things, or possibly go by the book to much? Sure. But I'm not talking about his overall tenure here- I'm talking about one decision in particular.
10-08-2013, 06:21 PM
msstate7

Quote:

Originally Posted by Will James

wRC+

Puig - 160
McCann - 122
Gattis - 110

wOBA

Puig - .398
McCann - .347
Gattis - .329

I never said gattis was better than puig. I don't believe he is. I do believe gattis is every bit the power hitter of puig though.

About gattis vs McCann... That's the difference in their stats in mccann's ninth year (free agent year) vs gattis' rookie season. Next year gattis' numbers will be better than mccann's.
10-08-2013, 06:24 PM
msstate7

Quote:

Originally Posted by Todd4State

I absolutely agree that Fredi is not the best manager out there right now overall. Does- he do some questionable things, or possibly go by the book to much? Sure. But I'm not talking about his overall tenure here- I'm talking about one decision in particular.

In the 8th inning with 2 runners on fredi let Elliot Johnson hit and promptly pulled him for janish. Elliot hit under .200 this year. That was an incredibly dumb move to me.
10-08-2013, 06:38 PM
Todd4State

Quote:

Originally Posted by msstate7

In the 8th inning with 2 runners on fredi let Elliot Johnson hit and promptly pulled him for janish. Elliot hit under .200 this year. That was an incredibly dumb move to me.

You know what that move was saying to me? "I think we have this series won and I want to make sure everyone gets into the game so that they can say that they played in the series." That move is only good if you are in a championship game and you are by 13. I don't like that move- remember the Bill Buckner error in 1986 in the World Series that cost the Red Sox? They Red Sox had a better defender named Dave Stapleton who they would bring in for Buckner defensively. John McNamara wanted Buckner to be on the field as the Red Sox won the World Series, so he left the better defender on the bench. Blew up in his face big time.

Fredi put Jordan Shafer in the game as well- followed by the announcer- "This is their first appearance in the NLDS."
10-08-2013, 07:23 PM
dawgs

Quote:

Originally Posted by Will James

I am succeeding

ha, i just wish football would become more open to the new way of thinking. chip kelly is a start, but someone even more willing to throw out the book and go purely on sabermetrics and analytics will come along and completely and utterly revolutionize the game. it's gonna happen. i wish dan would just start doing it. basketball has started going that way too.
10-08-2013, 07:37 PM
Dawg61

Quote:

Originally Posted by dawgs

ha, i just wish football would become more open to the new way of thinking. chip kelly is a start, but someone even more willing to throw out the book and go purely on sabermetrics and analytics will come along and completely and utterly revolutionize the game. it's gonna happen. i wish dan would just start doing it. basketball has started going that way too.

You mean like the HS coach in Texas winning 80%+ of all his games that NEVER punts and always kicks onside kicks and goes for 2? It's coming to a small college soon.
10-08-2013, 07:55 PM
smootness

Quote:

Originally Posted by Todd4State

Again- you are operating on hindsight. Even if you deny it.

No. By definition it isn't hindsight if it is foresight.

I said before the inning that we should go with Carpenter until he allowed a baserunner. I said when he allowed the double that we should bring Kimbrel in. We didn't, we lost.

You can say that it doesn't prove bringing in Kimbrel would have been the right move, but it definitely isn't hindsight.

I don't know how much you watch the Braves, but I promise you, Fredi's decision was simply on 'feel'. Kimbrel has actually pitched 2 full innings 3 times before in the majors, he did it multiple times in the minors, he was too fresh in game 2, he had pitched one time in 10 games prior, it was an elimination game, he's the best pitcher in baseball, he said he could go 2 innings, and he wanted to do it.

You can tell me he would be second-guessed either way; I don't care about that. I care about making the right move, and the right move wasn't to leave Carpenter in there.

I'm not kidding, if you think Uribe might swing away with 2 strikes, you let Carpenter throw one off the plate, and if Uribe doesn't square to bunt, you bring Kimbrel in right there. It was our last game of the season, assuming we didn't win. We had to win. We had to give ourselves the best chance to win, and that was to have Kimbrel on the mound as soon as he could go. Period. Everything else is just trying to make excuses for it.

You can't manage game 4 in a 5-game series when down 2-1 like you do game 114. That is the kind of thinking that has held the Braves back for years in the playoffs, and it has to change or we will keep doing this. Over and over and over and over.
10-08-2013, 08:59 PM
msstate7

Quote:

Originally Posted by smootness

No. By definition it isn't hindsight if it is foresight.

I said before the inning that we should go with Carpenter until he allowed a baserunner. I said when he allowed the double that we should bring Kimbrel in. We didn't, we lost.

You can say that it doesn't prove bringing in Kimbrel would have been the right move, but it definitely isn't hindsight.

I don't know how much you watch the Braves, but I promise you, Fredi's decision was simply on 'feel'. Kimbrel has actually pitched 2 full innings 3 times before in the majors, he did it multiple times in the minors, he was too fresh in game 2, he had pitched one time in 10 games prior, it was an elimination game, he's the best pitcher in baseball, he said he could go 2 innings, and he wanted to do it.

You can tell me he would be second-guessed either way; I don't care about that. I care about making the right move, and the right move wasn't to leave Carpenter in there.

I'm not kidding, if you think Uribe might swing away with 2 strikes, you let Carpenter throw one off the plate, and if Uribe doesn't square to bunt, you bring Kimbrel in right there. It was our last game of the season, assuming we didn't win. We had to win. We had to give ourselves the best chance to win, and that was to have Kimbrel on the mound as soon as he could go. Period. Everything else is just trying to make excuses for it.

You can't manage game 4 in a 5-game series when down 2-1 like you do game 114. That is the kind of thinking that has held the Braves back for years in the playoffs, and it has to change or we will keep doing this. Over and over and over and over.

I agree completely. I esp agree with part about bringing in CK once uribe wasn't bunting. McCann should catch some blame for calling 2 straight breaking balls though. After the blast, carpenter threw nothing but fastballs and got 3 easy outs. Carpenter throws 97 and after Garcia pitching all night that had to look like 108.
10-08-2013, 09:08 PM
msstate7

I'm watching the rays-red sox and I really wish the braves had joe maddon. I love how he manages

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