Hilarious because our concerns are the exact opposite. Our luck we'll end up sucking on both sides of the ball.Quote:
Originally Posted by Coach34
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Hilarious because our concerns are the exact opposite. Our luck we'll end up sucking on both sides of the ball.Quote:
Originally Posted by Coach34
You were wrong in 2013, and Coach34 is wrong now. Hell, he ain't never been right. That's the long and short of it. At least you had some sort of evidence in 2013, when we were sitting at 4-6. These morons now are bitching after we went 10-2 and 8-4.Quote:
Originally Posted by engie
We lose two CB's, but surely our safeties will be much better. Brandon Bryant and Peters as RS and true sophomores hopefully will have a good jump. I'm also hoping that bringing in a new safeties coach will help. Coman shouldn't be as bad as he is if you believe his stats on the iron dawg board or whatever they call it now. I know some athletes are just not football players, but we've had Cox and Coman back to back. Maybe there was something lacking in coaching there and a new coach can coach Coman up to at least be a good backup (of course we also had Market and Hughes, two players that did an excellent and good job of maximizing their athletic ability, but trying to be optimistic). We will need somebody new (like Graham maybe) to step up at CB, but if we can get two decent corners and two pretty good safeties, I feel like that'd be better than two good corners and two liabilities at safety. There may be some games where you really need that lock down corner for a specific wide receiver, but most games I'd rather just not have a big liability. Of course there is the potential that we will have a bigger liability at one of the corners than we had at either safety, but again, trying to be optimistic.Quote:
Originally Posted by Coach34
lol....Goat is something elseQuote:
Originally Posted by Taog Redloh
Smitherman is the best corner on the team IMO. Will we play him as a rsFR ahead of a senior that was terrible this year?Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnson85
We aren't young next year- our two deep is full of upperclassmen. Our Secondary will be Coman, Cleveland, Jiles, etc...Our starting WR's will all be Sr's...Shumpert and Holloway will be Sr's- our OL will start at least 3 Sr- with possibly Rankin in there as a 4th ur Jr..LB's will be Sr's and Jr's...DL will start 3 Sr'sQuote:
Originally Posted by engie
Veteran team. That's what Mullen has built and that was his plan. You can't say "all
the talent is young"- because that means Mullen's redshirting and development philosophy has failed
After a quick google search I couldn't find it, but someone posted a while back that State had played the 2nd most freshmen this year, behind only Georgia. If true, that would seem to bode well for next year and not taking too big of a step backward. Some pretty talented red-shirts should contribute too.Quote:
Originally Posted by engie
No way to know for sure, but my guess is that the relative strength of the SECW will be about the same next year.
I don't think I was "right" in 2013. The extreme nature of the turnaround that followed pretty much proved that. I just think it's funny how much further down the rabbit hole we were then when I was losing my mind in comparison to where we sit right now when those that argued against me then are losing their minds now. If we get blown out in the bowl game and then start 4-6 next year and are not competitive in the losses while consistently playing average juniors and seniors over great freshmen and sophomores the situation will then be similar. As bad as it is to say -- injuries saved that 2013 season for us because it forced us to play the more talented young guys.Quote:
Originally Posted by Taog Redloh
Sure I can. Redshirting and development hasn't failed -- recruiting and retaining has failed. 2/3 of the class of 2013 which would be 4th year players next year are gone. Single digit real contributors from that class. As for your projected 2-deep -- you just skewed it to fit your narrative.Quote:
Originally Posted by Coach34
Our most talented corner will be a rs fr.
Our most talented rb will be a rs fr.
Our 2nd best dt will be a rs fr.
Our 3 best S will be sophs.
Our best TE will be a tr SO.
Arguably our 2 best OL will be rs SOs.
Our QB will be a rs SO.
You are just playing the "veteran team" line of bs so you can continue the narrative if we struggle next year. But now that you've done a 180 on Mullen, I suspect that you'll continue to drive the narrative that direction regardless.
I think its fair to say that you are making some assumptions as well. We haven't seen Smitherman, Gibson, and Adams play - We want them to be good, but we haven't seen them play against live competition.Quote:
Originally Posted by engie
Who is the TE you are referencing? I genuinely don't know.
As for the OL - Jenkins has shown nothing but getting smoked in the egg bowl. He has shown nothing. Calhoun does have promise.
I think the narrative that all of our most talented players are freshman or RS freshman that haven't seen the field is just an argument that people use because no one wants to think that the guys behind them aren't better than what we are seeing on the field.
There is no BS- i mentioned the players that will be on the football field playing for us next year. The guys playing for us will not be young. That's just fact.Quote:
Originally Posted by engie
exactlyQuote:
Originally Posted by HancockCountyDog
To say Smitherman is our best CB at this point is ludicrous. Too many assumptions- especially at DT. Our starting DT's are gonna be James and Adams- and it won't be the younger Adams.
It's just like last year at this time- people kept saying Coman wouldn't start and that our awesome signee was going to start from Day 1. All the guys saying that haven't paid attention to the way we do things at State under Mullen. Guys that pay their dues and work hard are going to play over younger guys until the younger guy proves to be much better. That's the way it is. We are not about to sit a bunch of Sr's to start freshman
I see what you are saying but you have to admit and commented during the season as well that Peters and McLaurin were not ready to start even after the first 1/3 of the season. The safety position just isn't easy to come in and start especially for players from small MS schools. Them not being ready negates the age factor with that position group. Even at the end of the year McLaurin wasn't ready to start. Peters best play was from the Husky position not true safety either. Although he would have been serviceable I believe if he had to start at the end of the year. Which is what we were telling people even during the season. Peters might be close at the end but McLaurin would not be ready this year for full time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Coach34
Because we've got history of starting the most talented guys we have as true freshmen**Quote:
Originally Posted by Coach34
Smitherman is our best CB right now -- at this moment -- that is going to be here next year. For such an extreme talent evaluator as yourself -- it's amazing to me that you don't already know that. Even though the initial post you responded to did NOT include me calling him our "best" -- but "most talented".
As long as Mullen is coach I don't think we will ever technically be young. We might lose some SR's but our red shirting and giving play time to second team will keep us from being young.Quote:
Originally Posted by Coach34
i haven't been to practice this year- so I can't evaluate what I haven't seen.Quote:
Originally Posted by engie
He he may very well be- but we don't "know" he is until we see him play. And it won't be on the 1st snap on Defense in 2016 unless Jiles and Cleveland are hurt or suspended
well that's the theory behind it. Redshirt most of your classes to ensure you won't ever have to start a bunch of FreshmanQuote:
Originally Posted by Jack Lambert
Talent is able to be evaluated without seeing guys play under the lights. Would you argue that baseball talent can't be assessed in practice? Talent level and game productivity are two entirely different things that generally converge with experience.Quote:
Originally Posted by HancockCountyDog
Justin Johnson. Who was our best option for the majority of this year -- but didn't see the field so much because -- gasp, freshmenz.Quote:
Who is the TE you are referencing? I genuinely don't know.
A rsFR got smoked by a first rounder? The heck you say?Quote:
As for the OL - Jenkins has shown nothing but getting smoked in the egg bowl. He has shown nothing. Calhoun does have promise.
So -- you are saying is that the 2012 team was more talented than the 2014 team I guess? Since the guys on the bench are never more talented than the guys Mullen trots out there as seniors.Quote:
I think the narrative that all of our most talented players are freshman or RS freshman that haven't seen the field is just an argument that people use because no one wants to think that the guys behind them aren't better than what we are seeing on the field.
He's saying that sometimes R-Sr's are better at that particular than more talented younger players. There is lots of things experience helps with on a football field- it's more than just who has the most overall talent.
And I said I thought he was going to be the day 1 starter in 2016 at what point? I didn't. Yes -- we can already know he's the most talented guy without knowing for 100% sure that he's going to be the best option in October. Talent is much easier to evaluate than game productivity, instincts, and successful assignments.Quote:
Originally Posted by Coach34
I don't remember even saying what I thought was going to happen or what should happen -- just an honest evaluation of where we are. Anyone claiming that the vast majority of this team's real talent isn't coming from the 2015 class is lying to themselves. Hell, we've already hit on nearly as many players from that class as we have for the entire 2013 class. And still got pretty elite players coming off redshirt.
Are you are talking to a 5 year old here?Quote:
Originally Posted by Coach34
You have said more than once that we've got a 6 win ceiling next year. What advantage does playing untalented seniors to get to 6 wins give us vs playing more talented freshmen that -- by the end of the year -- probably ends up with the same number of wins because they'll be a better team in November than we would be with the seniors. If you think -- by the end of the year -- we will be better off playing seniors vs baptizing the young guys by fire and letting them take their lumps in order to get those truly ready and give us a window to make true runs in 2017 and 2018 -- then it's just another thing you've flip flopped on. You knight what happened with the 2013 team -- yet are arguing against letting the same thing happen with the 2016 team -- when the talent differential between the youngsters and the upperclassmen is much wider now than it was then.
No- I said we are a 6 win team next year. We may get lucky and get a 7th- and if so- good job Mullen with what we have.
But it I have been firm on 6-6
In 2013, I thought we might be a 6 win team, but I felt good about what we were building for 2014/15. Don't feel the same way now. I think we are going to win 7 games next year, but I don't see a roster that's built for a big run in 2017. I think we are going to be around 2-6, 3-5 in conference the next couple of years.Quote:
Originally Posted by Coach34
Sure, practice is definitely exposes talent. The problem is that other than the coaching staff, I don't think anyone on this board has been to practice more than just a few times. I kept hearing how great Shumpert looked in practice by those that were in the know, and I just went by what I saw on the field, in games. He simply wasn't a high level SEC RB. In practice he may look great, but in games, he has proven that he doesn't have it. Smitherman may be great, I hope he is, but to say he is better than Giles and Cleveland while he has never tried to cover Ridley or Paidwell, is just silly.Quote:
Originally Posted by engie
Im not sure how much better he was than Hutcherson. I thought he was solid, but nothing more than that. Just because he made a few nice catches in an all star game, doesn't mean he was better than Walley. Actually though Walley played pretty well this year.Quote:
Originally Posted by engie
He was getting whipped by their white DE who's name escapes me. Their entire DL isn't going pro despite what the bears may say. I watched Rawlings give machine gun enough time to throw the ball against Bama in game 3 in Tuscaloosa, yet Jenkins was a damn windmill in our game. This was despite everyone clamoring how much better he was than Warren. I truly believe people wanted to believe that because Warren was so damn bad, people just didn't want to believe the guy behind him was actually worse. Guess what - he was worse. I have my problems with Mullen, but this belief that Mullen is sitting guys that are clearly more talented and most importantly, are clearly better players in the game, is just silly. Joe Morrow sat this year. Shump sat most of this year. Benni started over seniors, so did Bmac, Wells and several more. Does Jenkins have a higher ceiling than Warren? Probably. The problem is that right now, Warren's floor is higher than Jenkins.Quote:
Originally Posted by engie
The 2012 team did have defensive talent and some nice offensive talent, the problem was that Mullen was trying to force a QB that didn't fit his system at all. It eventually caught up to us when we started playing teams that could rush the QB. Do I think that 2012 team had more talent on its roster than 2014? Im not sure, Id have to see them side by side, my gut says no, but we are simply talking about talent, not who is the better player when lining up on a Saturday night.Quote:
Originally Posted by engie
I think Jamal Peters is extremely talented. I don't think he should be in coverage a ton. I think we should use him the same way the bears use Conner in the box and lined up on TE's. If I could choose to play Charles Mitchell from his senior year or Jamal Peters in his freshman year - I go with Charles. Now Peters is more talented, but Charles is the better player. With our program why would we force a more talented, but not better player on the field?
Those people are idiots. What else can you really say?Quote:
Originally Posted by engie
At that point, at least it's understandable that people get frustrated. Just as it was in 2013 before Arkansas and Ole Miss. Doesn't make it right, but it was understandable.Quote:
Originally Posted by engie
Coach34, Todd4State and the other members of their band are just plumb retarded. The can point to coaching searches, agents, rumors, recrootin, all they want to, and it don't change a thing. This is big time college football, and everybody has to deal with that. Bottom line is they have an irrational inferiority to Ole Miss. For about the 12th time, I'll say this again. Had we lost to Arkansas and beaten Ole Miss, those same guys would be wanting Mullen to get an extension and another million dollars.
You conveniently forget about all the younger players that Mullen DOES play, and has since he got here. Why fixate on Josh Robinson? You know there is a reason he wasn't playing. Plus, I'd say it's best to start out with older players and let the younger players actually beat them out, or bring them along slowly. It's not rocket science.Quote:
Originally Posted by engie
You're arguing about nothing.
I don't think I ever thought Shump would be the guy after seeing him run in 2014, even with the good runs in the Egg Bowl. If you look back, I wanted to play Aeris as true freshman some so we wouldn't end up in the situation we ended up in. Especially with what was obviously always going to be a deep RB class in 2015.Quote:
Originally Posted by HancockCountyDog
Which highlights my exact point. If a freshman is indistinguishable from a senior -- it's idiotic to play the senior. He was a true freshman -- and he was arguably our best blocker at TE. He's a better blocker than Walley -- faster than Walley -- bigger than Walley. The only things that could be argued was route running, assignments, and as a pass catcher. It was close enough -- that the smart thing to do is to go with the freshman.Quote:
Im not sure how much better he was than Hutcherson. I thought he was solid, but nothing more than that. Just because he made a few nice catches in an all star game, doesn't mean he was better than Walley. Actually though Walley played pretty well this year.
CJ Johnson had 0.5Quote:
He was getting whipped by their white DE who's name escapes me. Their entire DL isn't going pro despite what the bears may say. I watched Rawlings give machine gun enough time to throw the ball against Bama in game 3 in Tuscaloosa, yet Jenkins was a damn windmill in our game. This was despite everyone clamoring how much better he was than Warren. I truly believe people wanted to believe that because Warren was so damn bad, people just didn't want to believe the guy behind him was actually worse. Guess what - he was worse. I have my problems with Mullen, but this belief that Mullen is sitting guys that are clearly more talented and most importantly, are clearly better players in the game, is just silly. Joe Morrow sat this year. Shump sat most of this year. Benni started over seniors, so did Bmac, Wells and several more. Does Jenkins have a higher ceiling than Warren? Probably. The problem is that right now, Warren's floor is higher than Jenkins.
Breeland Speaks had 1
Woodrow Hamilton had 1
DJ Jones had 1
Channing Ward had 1
RN had 1.5
Marquise Haynes had 1
Those are a bunch of really good pass rushers -- and those ain't all on one guy either. Hamilton is really the only questionable talent of that group. And it's been obvious for a long time now that the mississippi academy kids get up to speed more quickly on the OL.
Wait -- do what? That 2012 team played a crap ton of seniors -- and was the worst defense we've fielded since year 1 under Mullen by far. Couldn't stop the run and couldn't stop the pass. We started Dwayne Cherrington at DT and Eulls at DE for goodness sake. Preston Smith says hello. Who still led the team in sacks and was 3rd in TFL in spite of playing 1/3 of the snaps at most -- and watching us give teams all day to throw and not even be able to stop the run in doing it.Quote:
The 2012 team did have defensive talent and some nice offensive talent, the problem was that Mullen was trying to force a QB that didn't fit his system at all. It eventually caught up to us when we started playing teams that could rush the QB. Do I think that 2012 team had more talent on its roster than 2014? Im not sure, Id have to see them side by side, my gut says no, but we are simply talking about talent, not who is the better player when lining up on a Saturday night.
Charles Mitchell was a DRAFTED, borderline elite college DB. A high 4* himself. A 4 year starter that I don't recall ever being a posterized liability. Hardly the same thing as Coman vs Peters/McLaurin. No one is bitching about us playing NFL quality players on our first string regardless of what's behind them. No one is bitching about us playing Richie and redshirting Leo. It's when the starter is an upperclassmen that isn't good. If Cleveland is a starter next year -- we are totally screwed. It's the most obvious thing imaginable. Once Redmond went down -- teams literally found whoever Cleveland was lined up on -- and threw completions to his man for 10 up and down the field. I'd rather roll the dice with Graham than go back with Cleveland -- I'm that convinced he's not the guy at this point.Quote:
I think Jamal Peters is extremely talented. I don't think he should be in coverage a ton. I think we should use him the same way the bears use Conner in the box and lined up on TE's. If I could choose to play Charles Mitchell from his senior year or Jamal Peters in his freshman year - I go with Charles. Now Peters is more talented, but Charles is the better player. With our program why would we force a more talented, but not better player on the field?
There are WAAYYYY more examples than just Robinson of us not playing the best talent on the front end.Quote:
Originally Posted by Taog Redloh
This is where you go full rahtard Goat and it ends up getting you banned. I have no inferiority feelings toward OM- actually just he opposite. I can't understand how we ever lose to them. They are beneath us.Quote:
Originally Posted by Taog Redloh
Secondly, you have seen me post our record vs Bama, LSU, and A&M. 2-16. That is who I'm comparing our program to and we are failing miserably. Everybody calls Les a moron- but they beat us. Everybody says A&M is soft and Sumlin is approaching dumpster fire- but they beat us. We have trouble scoring against Bama year after year- but other teams are able to put points up. It's about the top half of the SEC- not the team that just finished ahead of us in the West for the 1st time in 6 seasons.
It's not so much that Mullen won't play young people, it's that he seems to be much more demanding of younger players than other coaches. It's a combination of expecting a lot out of them from a discipline perspective and practicing the right way along with a refusal to let them take their lumps the way he does upper classmen. The benefits are that we get a very disciplined team for the most part. The downsides are that we lose some valuable production from younger players because it takes them so long to put it together. I don't know enough to evaluate how Mullen handles this balance. He clearly does not err on the side of playing players that don't have it all put together as freshmen. Some players have proven it's possible, but they've also proven how hard it is. Basically takes NFL potential combined with a lot of maturity. Bear was able to do it by coming in and destroying practice along with having a ton of potential and not much competition. Chris Jones was able to do it by being a physical freak but was still held back a little by I presume the coach's belief that he took too many plays off. Justin Johnson came in and got playing time. Preston Smith sat on the bench with NFL potential and literally not a single pass rusher to compete with; he somehow didn't get to play even though the next option was playing a DT out of position (I'm not sure if his body was undeveloped or if it was an extreme discipilne problem or a combination). Robinson sat on the bench while we ran a 170lb back up the middle, but it seems obvious he needed to be held to a high standard. Peters and McLauren sat the bench despite not much competition at safety. Brandon Bryant redshirted even though it left us with no competence experience at safety (but hard to fault the coaches for not predicting that Market would go down and that Coman wouldn't get better). We definitely get a lot of benefits out of Mullen's approach but it was frustrating as hell watching how inept we were at RB this year while two redshirt freshmen sat the bench and it was frustrating as hell watching a RS Fr get punished mroe for a fumble than a Junior.Quote:
Originally Posted by Taog Redloh
This is what people need to understand. The reason we redshirt so many players is b/c we are not signing classes full of guys that are ready to play. They HAVE to redshirt. Peters, Dear, McLaurin, and Justin Johnson all played as true freshman for us this year. Other guys like Bear, Cox, Boyd, Bumphis, and Chris Jones all played as true freshman b/c they were all talented 4 star/5 star players (except for Bear). So Mullen does play young guys. It's just a lot of the guys we sign, particularly on the O-line aren't ready to contribute for 3 years.
What gets me banned is my lack of respect for board moderators, on here and 6-pack. That's fair enough, it's your board. But don't get it twisted, you know better than that. I get it, you don't like to look bad. That's fine, I just won't celebrate it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Coach34
The ONLY thing that changes this is R E C R O O T I N. And that doesn't happen overnight. If you haven't noticed, our recrootin has gotten slowly better since Mullen's been here. My ONLY point is this.....wait to judge next year and 2017. At least get on the train, and don't help the derailment....until it's time to do so. That is my message to all MSU fans, not just you. Our fanbase loves to strokes their own egos and might among itself more than any other. Mirrors the state of Mississippi.Quote:
Originally Posted by Coach34
What gives you this impression?Quote:
Originally Posted by HoopsDawg
- The 25th ranked recrootin class of 2013?
- The 35th ranked recrootin class of 2014 (small class)?
- The 18th ranked recrootin class of 2015?
- Or is it the THREE competent QBs on the roster?
- What about that we lose 17 players off this squad (14 Srs, 3 EDs), and have 31 rising seniors?
- Or the HUGE group of freshmen (HS and RS) that will be Juniors in 2017?
I think we do probably win 6-8 games next year, like many others, but the team will be pretty good. At the very least we'll have veteran leadership. Schedule sort of sucks IMO, although it also could end up easier than I think. I don't like only 6 home games. But 2017 sets up well. You know, we set up 2014 with the 22nd ranked class in 2012, the 35th ranked class in 2011, and the 33rd ranked class in 2010. We've moved up a notch.
All I can say....is give it a chance.