KSU football team refusing to practice or play

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Originally Posted by dantheman4248

Amazing you're battling for tolerance of disgusting tweets. Great priority to have.

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The entire point of freedom of speech is to protect the right to say offensive, disgusting things.

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Originally Posted by smootness

The entire point of freedom of speech is to protect the right to say offensive, disgusting things.

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There's protecting the right to be free from persecution from government and then there's forcing the rest of society to suppress their right to free speech in criticizing.

The whole name of the game is that people conflate freedom from government with freedom from everyone else. That just isn't the case. You live in a society and are "A" member of that society not "THE" member of that society.

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Originally Posted by dantheman4248

There's protecting the right to be free from persecution from government and then there's forcing the rest of society to suppress their right to free speech in criticizing.

The whole name of the game is that people conflate freedom from government with freedom from everyone else. That just isn't the case. You live in a society and are "A" member of that society not "THE" member of that society.

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Sure, but who is forcing anyone here to suppress their criticism?

Kansas State is a public university.

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Originally Posted by dantheman4248

Yea... that's why the NFL settled out of court with him.



It's like y'all are being willfully ignorant.

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They settled out of court b/c there was a 150% chance that one of their old white owners put something awful in an email that was going to turn up in discovery. Not even necessarily something relevant to Kapernick or even race, but something that would still be responsive to a discovery request and that would cost the NFL more in PR headache than Kapernick settled for.

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Originally Posted by dantheman4248

hahahahahhaahhahahahahahahhahahahahahhahahahahahah ahhahahahahahhahahahahahahahha

The cashcow that is college football, having a whole team in the P5 refusing, and you think that they are going to go that route. Revoke their scholarships???

hhahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahhahahahahhaha hahahhahahahahah

What fairytale land do you live in?

Do you not understand how poorly that would come across?

Amazing you're battling for tolerance of disgusting tweets. Great priority to have.

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THis is idiotic. If you only want free speech for speech you agree with, then you are not for free speech. That's fine I guess. Lots of countries don't really have free speech but range from tolerant to pleasant (although I think it's risky over time). But just come out and say you don't think free speech is important. Don't come out and say stupid shit like "I'm for free speech, but not tolerant of people saying disgusting things." If not just out of a desire to be honest do it so you don't sound or look like a dubmass.

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Originally Posted by Johnson85

THis is idiotic. If you only want free speech for speech you agree with, then you are not for free speech. That's fine I guess. Lots of countries don't really have free speech but range from tolerant to pleasant (although I think it's risky over time). But just come out and say you don't think free speech is important. Don't come out and say stupid shit like "I'm for free speech, but not tolerant of people saying disgusting things." If not just out of a desire to be honest do it so you don't sound or look like a dubmass.

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I'm for you being able to say whatever you want without the government stopping you.

I'm not for you being able to say whatever you want and others not being allowed to ostracize and "cancel" you. It is their free speech to do so.

If you aren't for cancel culture then you aren't for free speech. Because that's how things work in a truly democratic free speech society.

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Originally Posted by dantheman4248

I'm for you being able to say whatever you want without the government stopping you.

I'm not for you being able to say whatever you want and others not being allowed to ostracize and "cancel" you. It is their free speech to do so.

If you aren't for cancel culture then you aren't for free speech. Because that's how things work in a truly democratic free speech society.

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Ok. But here the entity cancelling (via expulsion) would be the university, which is the government.

I do agree with you that the best way to combat speech with which you disagree is by private entities/citizens using their free speech rights to disagree. Nothing wrong with that. For example, if football players want to not play in response to speech with which they disagree, have at it. Nobody can force them to play.

ETA: Generally, and to johnson85 point below, I do think we are all better off with competing dialogue instead of, when we disagree with someone's views, advocating to have that person's views suppressed and removed from the dialogue.

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Originally Posted by dantheman4248

I'm for you being able to say whatever you want without the government stopping you.

I'm not for you being able to say whatever you want and others not being allowed to ostracize and "cancel" you. It is their free speech to do so.

If you aren't for cancel culture then you aren't for free speech. Because that's how things work in a truly democratic free speech society.

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Having other people force/coerce/convince government entities to punish somebody that says something you disagree with is not free speech. Popular speech doesn't need protection.

And cancel culture is not prohibited by the first amendment, but it's also not consistent with free speech. Free speech is a cultural value as well as a legal principle. If you believe in free speech as a cultural value, the response to repugnant speech or views is not to try to drive them from polite society, but to meet them in the marketplace of ideas with better views/ideas.

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Originally Posted by Johnson85

Having other people force/coerce/convince government entities to punish somebody that says something you disagree with is not free speech. Popular speech doesn't need protection.

And cancel culture is not prohibited by the first amendment, but it's also not consistent with free speech. Free speech is a cultural value as well as a legal principle. If you believe in free speech as a cultural value, the response to repugnant speech or views is not to try to drive them from polite society, but to meet them in the marketplace of ideas with better views/ideas.

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Bravo, sir! Well said!

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Johnson85 again

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Originally Posted by Johnson85

THis is idiotic. If you only want free speech for speech you agree with, then you are not for free speech. That's fine I guess. Lots of countries don't really have free speech but range from tolerant to pleasant (although I think it's risky over time). But just come out and say you don't think free speech is important. Don't come out and say stupid shit like "I'm for free speech, but not tolerant of people saying disgusting things." If not just out of a desire to be honest do it so you don't sound or look like a dubmass.

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It works both ways. You are free to be a jerk if you want to be. Others are also free to point it out and treat you like you jerk.

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Originally Posted by smootness

The entire point of freedom of speech is to protect the right to say offensive, disgusting things.

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The right to free speech protects you from government persecution. It has nothing to do with other people not persecuting you for a ridiculous viewpoint.

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Originally Posted by confucius say

Ok. But here the entity cancelling (via expulsion) would be the university, which is the government.

I do agree with you that the best way to combat speech with which you disagree is by private entities/citizens using their free speech rights to disagree. Nothing wrong with that. For example, if football players want to not play in response to speech with which they disagree, have at it. Nobody can force them to play.

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Yep. Which is why I think he'll win in court. Or more likely settle. The main overall point is to those misunderstanding what free speech truly is.

Johnson, we are talking about the right to free speech. Whatever cultural diatribe you are on can be contorted any which way. Still not law.

Belief in libertarianism is cute and all, but it only works based on a premise that is not true. That all men are created equal. This just isn't the case. Do libertarianism free speech culture does not work.

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Originally Posted by dantheman4248

I'm for you being able to say whatever you want without the government stopping you.

I'm not for you being able to say whatever you want and others not being allowed to ostracize and "cancel" you. It is their free speech to do so.

If you aren't for cancel culture then you aren't for free speech. Because that's how things work in a truly democratic free speech society.

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You're making the same disingenuous argument made by those on the other side.

No one is saying the people trying to 'cancel' others don't or shouldn't have a legal right to do it. They're just saying that it is bad for society. In the same way, you can defend someone's right to say terrible things while thinking that saying terrible things is bad for society. I have not seen anyone make an argument that the government should draft laws to disable cancel culture.

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Originally Posted by smootness

You're making the same disingenuous argument made by those on the other side.

No one is saying the people trying to 'cancel' others don't or shouldn't have a legal right to do it. They're just saying that it is bad for society. In the same way, you can defend someone's right to say terrible things while thinking that saying terrible things is bad for society. I have not seen anyone make an argument that the government should draft laws to disable cancel culture.

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There are a lot of things bad with our society. Democratic (ab)use of free speech is low on the totem pole.

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Originally Posted by Jarius

The right to free speech protects you from government persecution. It has nothing to do with other people not persecuting you for a ridiculous viewpoint.

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Obviously.

And once again, Kansas State is a public university.

No one here saying this kid shouldn't be expelled is advocating that his views are positive or good.

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Originally Posted by starkvegasdawg

If this is successful (and it probably will be) I can't wait for a tweet from a player that is racist to make it public and demands for his expulsion to crank up.

This whole damn country is turning on itself. It's really getting sad and scary. Someone gets offended and instead of putting on your big boy pants and saying 17 it and moving on with life you have to drop down in the floor and have an adult version of a temper tantrum and start demanding all this bullshit and rioting and looting. 17 me, people, does nobody have a backbone anymore?

In the 1700's, severely out manned and out gunned we kicked the shit out of the British and won our freedom. In the early to mid 1900's we kicked the shit out of fascism and nazism twice. In the 1990's we kicked the shit out of the world's third largest army that was attempting to take over a region. In the early 2000's, in just a few weeks, we kicked the shit out of an army that fought the Soviet war machine to a years long quagmire. This country used to have balls and fortitude. Now we can't go about our day to day lives because of the logo on a 17ing bottle of pancake syrup.

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This!

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Originally Posted by dantheman4248

There are a lot of things bad with our society. Democratic (ab)use of free speech is low on the totem pole.

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Did I make any sort of claim that it was one of the greatest ills in our society? Don't change the argument here.

All I'm saying is that yes, you have the right in the US to say basically anything you want so long as it isn't inciting violence. And others have the right to say what they want in response to that. So people on all sides can agree and disagree with anyone and anything they want. I think this kid at Kansas State is a moron and almost certainly a bad guy, and I will defend his right to say what he wants. I will also defend the right of any athlete or anyone else to say and do what they want in response (do meaning sit out, obviously not to attack him or anything). I will also defend their right to tell the university they want him expelled. I also don't think Kansas State has that legal right in this situation.

I think those constantly shouting at others and attempting to 'cancel' them are doing something counterproductive and in some cases hateful, but I will defend their right to do it. Having bad viewpoints said publicly is not a good thing for society in and of itself...but the alternative, which would be forcibly shutting down certain viewpoints, is far worse.

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Originally Posted by dantheman4248

Yep. Which is why I think he'll win in court. Or more likely settle. The main overall point is to those misunderstanding what free speech truly is.

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You have been arguing that it is consistent with free speech for the football team to be able to use their leverage to get a government entity to punish somebody for their speech. It is not other people that are misunderstanding what free speech is.

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Originally Posted by dantheman4248

Johnson, we are talking about the right to free speech. Whatever cultural diatribe you are on can be contorted any which way. Still not law.

Belief in libertarianism is cute and all, but it only works based on a premise that is not true. That all men are created equal. This just isn't the case. Do libertarianism free speech culture does not work.

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Belief in free speech is not limited to libertarians. The most vocal proponents of free speech used to be big government democrats (arguably it was just a tool since they agreed with a lot of speech that was unpopular, but if you take them at face value, they supported free speech). And you are as confused about libertarianism as you are about free speech. It is not dependent on all men being created; all men being equal in the eyes of the law/government regardless of birth is a belief and goal of more or less all variants of libertarianism. Men being equal in other ways is not some condition precedent or even related to libertarianism.

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Originally Posted by starkvegasdawg

If this is successful (and it probably will be) I can't wait for a tweet from a player that is racist to make it public and demands for his expulsion to crank up.

This whole damn country is turning on itself. It's really getting sad and scary. Someone gets offended and instead of putting on your big boy pants and saying 17 it and moving on with life you have to drop down in the floor and have an adult version of a temper tantrum and start demanding all this bullshit and rioting and looting. 17 me, people, does nobody have a backbone anymore?

In the 1700's, severely out manned and out gunned we kicked the shit out of the British and won our freedom. In the early to mid 1900's we kicked the shit out of fascism and nazism twice. In the 1990's we kicked the shit out of the world's third largest army that was attempting to take over a region. In the early 2000's, in just a few weeks, we kicked the shit out of an army that fought the Soviet war machine to a years long quagmire. This country used to have balls and fortitude. Now we can't go about our day to day lives because of the logo on a 17ing bottle of pancake syrup.

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This! Best thing I've read in a long time. This is the spoiled,entitled group that preaches diversity but only if you think like they do. They get offended at the drop of a hat and throw temper tantrums.

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Originally Posted by coastratdog

Free speech is 17ed.

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You are free to say whatever you want, as long as you are ready to face the consequences. Free doesn't mean without consequences.
A statement like that is despicable. Not really sure what their code of conduct covers, but it could mean expulsion.