Rick Ray gets a 4-star commit tonight

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Originally Posted by engie

There is no excuse for the middle of the pack in the SEC to be as bad as it's been in basketball recently

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To compare how good the SEC has been, you need to compare the seasons these classes have been able to contribute in, but this really isn't the point. I don't disagree with you that the SEC should be better, but you know what, it's full of shitty coaches. You have to do both. You have to get talent, and get talent to perform.

Ray has been terrible on the first one so far. Maybe he's about to turn the corner, but he's he needs to do it quickly or we need to move on. We're not going to hang participation banners in the Hump.

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Originally Posted by engie

Where did I "want to fire Mullen last year"? Once again -- you are skewing my position by leaving out the bullet points on my Mullen position.

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We're last in the SEC in recruiting. And we're damn near full. We're on probation. The 2 teams we've consistently beaten(OM and Kentucky) are mopping the floor with us in recruiting. Coaching sucks. Not only does it suck -- but it's become laxidasical. We're making the same mistakes in year 5 that were made in year 1. And the best part of our team(punting) just got totally mind17ed last night.

When it is "time", it's time. There has been consistently clear regression since 2010 that is only hidden by the joke of a schedule we had last year. And not having it totally bottomed out YET doesn't mean it's not time to make a change. - engie 10/25/13

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Originally Posted by engie

Holy shit -- you still don't get what I was actually saying after it's been spelled out 3 times in this very thread. I wish I was surprised.

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My God you are one stupid SOB. You got your panties in a wad because I paraphrased something you said. I didn't change what you said or even take exception to it. And your girlish sensitivities took over and you went off. You are by far the worst poster on this or any board.

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Originally Posted by engie

Conveniently moving the goalposts you previously had set for Ray. Which is all you've done in regards to him since the beginning...

In other words -- you are admitting that you expect us to show improvement and win 17+ this year -- and are hedging your bets on the improvement being sub 20 so that so you can keep going down this ridiculous path for an extra year instead of admitting things are going in the right direction and everything you've said about Ray has been premature and unfounded.

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Find a quote of mine saying 17 wins was good this year? I've always said twenty. Ray already failed my one requirement though.

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Originally Posted by Dawg61

Find a quote of mine saying 17 wins was good this year? I've always said twenty. Ray already failed my one requirement though.

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The only person moving the goalposts is engie. Remember when "challenging for an NIT" was the goal for year 2? And making the NIT was the goal for year 3? Yeah I remember than too.

another gem from engie in the same thread:

I changed my mind on Mullen in weeks 1 and 3 this year -- and took another month to be 100% sure I wasn't being an overly emotional roller coaster fan before taking a stance.

I gave him the benefit of the doubt through the collapse last year -- and the lack of OL holding us back in 2011. When nothing had been fixed this year -- after the problems couldn't have possibly been made any more obvious to us at the end of last year -- I finally lost faith. There is simply NO ONE worse at the end of games than he is. And we will never beat a team with superior talent under him again -- without them just giving us the game.

I think what I was holding onto more than Mullen -- was the momentum we'd built as a team, program, and fanbase. I LOVED the new "air" in Davis Wade in 2009, 2010, 2011. I felt it leaving last year -- and was fighting to keep it alive -- while our coach has fought to kill it. Now, I've come to terms with the fact that it's gone and there is no logical way we ever recapture it under this regime.

But with a HC change -- especially with Hud and a likely immediate boost in recruiting -- we recapture "it" before the spring game. - engie 10/25/13

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Originally Posted by codeDawg

To compare how good the SEC has been, you need to compare the seasons these classes have been able to contribute in, but this really isn't the point. I don't disagree with you that the SEC should be better, but you know what, it's full of shitty coaches. You have to do both. You have to get talent, and get talent to perform.

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The problem is coaching in your opinion? How did Frank Martin, Cuonzo Martin, Anthony Grant, Mike Anderson, Billy Kennedy, etc all manage to be so successful prior to coming to the SEC before mostly falling on their faces once here? Do they forget how to coach when they get down here? Or do they get AAU starstruck or buy into recruiting/booster philosophies at these "big time" basketball programs that they aren't comfortable with, getting "elite" players that don't play to their strengths or fit their systems and their methods for previous success?

Alot of damn fine coaches have done a lot of losing in the SEC and there's more to the story than them losing their minds and forgetting how to coach basketball. I'm not saying the hypothesis I gave above is the whole problem -- but it's part of it. Which is why I appreciate us trying to take a different approach with the players we go after. You can literally see the similarity in personality traits in the guys we are going after in their highlight videos now. I appreciate that. Like-mindedness builds chemistry that is of high value longterm. I can go through every team in the conference and list the "elite" recruits they have on roster -- and it would be mind blowing how these teams can be that bad. There's obviously something else happening here.

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Originally Posted by MadDawg

We're last in the SEC in recruiting. And we're damn near full. We're on probation. The 2 teams we've consistently beaten(OM and Kentucky) are mopping the floor with us in recruiting. Coaching sucks. Not only does it suck -- but it's become laxidasical. We're making the same mistakes in year 5 that were made in year 1. And the best part of our team(punting) just got totally mind17ed last night.

When it is "time", it's time. There has been consistently clear regression since 2010 that is only hidden by the joke of a schedule we had last year. And not having it totally bottomed out YET doesn't mean it's not time to make a change. - engie 10/25/13

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What part of that was I incorrect on?

Go ahead and post unlinked partial quotes to my position all you want -- I can literally show a dozen situations where I spelled out in detail that I was only in support of going another direction if we lost the Egg Bowl. That's where the bet was hedged and you are conveniently overlooking to push an old agenda.

And you are a ****ing hypocrite for being the one to try and do it after the shit you pulled about Cohen.

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Originally Posted by engie

What part of that was I incorrect on?

Go ahead and post unlinked partial quotes to my position all you want -- I can literally show a dozen situations where I spelled out in detail that I was only in support of going another direction if we lost the Egg Bowl. That's where the bet was hedged and you are conveniently overlooking to push an old agenda.

And you are a ****ing hypocrite for being the one to try and do it after the shit you pulled about Cohen.

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I'm posting your full posts, idiot. Nowhere in these posts do you mention "if we lost eh egg bowl". Liar. Idiot.

And I've never tried to backtrack from anything I said about Cohen. But the most your "investigations" could ever find on me was a quote where I said the if not for what Cohen had done at Kentucky, you'd have to wonder if he even knew what he was doing. Sure, it was stupid. I own it. But I wasn't the only one bitching at the time.

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Originally Posted by MadDawg

My God you are one stupid SOB.

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The guy who can't read calling the other guy stupid. That's funny.

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You got your panties in a wad because I paraphrased something you said.

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No -- you got your panties in a wad because you saw something I said that had alot of merit as a "shot" at Stansbury that actually wasn't a shot at Stansbury at all -- and you would have seen that ****ing clearly had you bothered reading for 15 seconds and/or the next 2 posts instead of making up your mind and STILL continuing to roll with the bullshit you made up in your head. You are literally arguing against a viewpoint that exists only in your tiny mind.

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I didn't change what you said or even take exception to it.

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Really? Well why are you still whining like a girl? Why are you bringing up, at length, something totally unrelated to this thread from over a year ago? Something that has been talked about ad nauseam.

Basically because you're a little bitch that can't argue based on the merits of the argument at hand -- while also being the hypocrite that wanted Cohen fired. So -- you are just a pot calling a kettle right now.

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And your girlish sensitivities took over and you went off.

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I'm the one that is scouring the archives for all of the times you've been wrong? Whose "girlish sensitivities" are we talking about here?

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You are by far the worst poster on this or any board.

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Thanks. Wish I could say the same about you -- but the fact is you are just another forgettable dumb ass.

Here's what a poster on 6-pack had to say about engie:

"It's funny how quickly you've flipped on Mullen, but what's funnier is that now that you've "seen the light," you act like anyone who disagrees with you (i.e. anyone who still agrees with your prior opinion of Mullen, but not your current one) IS an OBVIOUS idiot who has DISREGARDED all the incontrovertible STATISTICS showing that HUD is the ONLY logical choice for head coach and he MUST be HIRED right NOW and ANYONE who can't SEE that is part of the PROBLEM. Do you ever tire of acting like whatever opinion you happen to hold today is the only one that could possibly be right and any other opinion is ludicrous? " - Arloguthrie 10/25/13

And you haven't changed at all. Worst poster on this or any board.

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Originally Posted by Dawg61

Find a quote of mine saying 17 wins was good this year? I've always said twenty. Ray already failed my one requirement though.

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Your "one" requirement? You've had so many different requirements that we can't keep up with them all.

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Originally Posted by engie

The problem is coaching in your opinion? How did Frank Martin, Cuonzo Martin, Anthony Grant, Mike Anderson, Billy Kennedy, etc all manage to be so successful prior to coming to the SEC before mostly falling on their faces once here? Do they forget how to coach when they get down here? Or do they get AAU starstruck or buy into recruiting/booster philosophies at these "big time" basketball programs that they aren't comfortable with, getting "elite" players that don't play to their strengths or fit their systems and their methods for previous success?

Alot of damn fine coaches have done a lot of losing in the SEC and there's more to the story than them losing their minds and forgetting how to coach basketball. I'm not saying the hypothesis I gave above is the whole problem -- but it's part of it. Which is why I appreciate us trying to take a different approach with the players we go after. You can literally see the similarity in personality traits in the guys we are going after in their highlight videos now. I appreciate that. Like-mindedness builds chemistry that is of high value longterm. I can go through every team in the conference and list the "elite" recruits they have on roster -- and it would be mind blowing how these teams can be that bad. There's obviously something else happening here.

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I think they got better talent, recruiting rankings or not, before they got into the SEC. The guys we have on the roster right now, recruiting rankings aside, are not great basketball players. They are role players that can do a little of this or some of that.

You're just arguing to argue at this point. I think we all know we need to get a couple of high-level players on the team or we aren't going to do much but argue on message boards about when we should fire Ray.

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Originally Posted by engie

What part of that was I incorrect on?

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Uh, the part where you said it's time to make a change maybe? Are you really too dense to see that?

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Originally Posted by MadDawg

I'm posting your full posts, idiot. Nowhere in these posts do you mention "if we lost eh egg bowl". Liar. Idiot.

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Namecalling? Who is the whiny little bitch again?
It's literally spelled out my Mullen position a dozen times that you've seen between here and SPS. Everything I posted was based on that position. And I CONSTANTLY hedged it as such. I didn't realize I had to explicitly state it in multiple paragraph detail in EVERY SINGLE POST I made -- for that to be my well-known, well-versed position. Literally everyone here that isn't pushing your crybaby agenda knows EXACTLY what my position was and is -- because they've seen it all a dozen times. I figured a dozen such posts in probably 100 I had bitching about Mullen would be enough -- but obviously not for the reading-ignorant agenda-driven ****tards.

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And I've never tried to backtrack from anything I said about Cohen. But the most your "investigations" could ever find on me was a quote where I said the if not for what Cohen had done at Kentucky, you'd have to wonder if he even knew what he was doing. Sure, it was stupid. I own it. But I wasn't the only one bitching at the time.

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Thanks for this -- it spells out in elaborate detail the extent to which you are being a hypocrite. Ah -- so it's cool for you to bitch about Cohen and want him gone --- but it's somehow different about Mullen in year 5? Was "engiNe the only one bitching at the time" -- or was it half our damn fanbase pissed off at that time? Football -- much moreso than baseball or basketball -- is a game of inches. I had over 3 years of data on my side at the time of my argument. We lose that Egg Bowl -- where are we at right now? Does anyone show up for the USM game? Does Dak have a damn bit of hype without the ending of that game and bowl game? No. We would have been expected bottom-dwellers in the west right beside if not below Arkansas. Luckily, things went differently -- but let's not pretend that we didn't stand on disaster's doorstep last year in football and manage to fight back from the ledge.

You've gone full ****tard on a baseball and now a basketball coach with less than 2/3 of the total data(with both of those being total rebuilds -- while Mullen's team was already totally built) that I was basing my opinion on Mullen on. I don't know why I bother engaging you beyond that point -- because that's all I need to confirm that you are an idiot.

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Originally Posted by MadDawg

Here's what a poster on 6-pack had to say about engie:

"It's funny how quickly you've flipped on Mullen, but what's funnier is that now that you've "seen the light," you act like anyone who disagrees with you (i.e. anyone who still agrees with your prior opinion of Mullen, but not your current one) IS an OBVIOUS idiot who has DISREGARDED all the incontrovertible STATISTICS showing that HUD is the ONLY logical choice for head coach and he MUST be HIRED right NOW and ANYONE who can't SEE that is part of the PROBLEM. Do you ever tire of acting like whatever opinion you happen to hold today is the only one that could possibly be right and any other opinion is ludicrous? " - Arloguthrie 10/25/13

And you haven't changed at all. Worst poster on this or any board.

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Great. So now we're quoting what REBELS have to say about Engie as "validation" to your girlish ego and thought process -- Truly fuggin full circle here at ELITEdawgs...

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Originally Posted by codeDawg

I think they got better talent, recruiting rankings or not, before they got into the SEC. The guys we have on the roster right now, recruiting rankings aside, are not great basketball players. They are role players that can do a little of this or some of that.

You're just arguing to argue at this point. I think we all know we need to get a couple of high-level players on the team or we aren't going to do much but argue on message boards about when we should fire Ray.

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But you just said that recruiting rankings get it right in basketball didn't you? That there was basically no such thing as diamonds? Obviously there was -- if these guys were having success with these underrated/unranked guys before who "were better basketball players"...

The disconnect I'm having is this -- We don't KNOW that "none of the guys on our roster right now are great basketball players". All we actually know is "some of them showed flashes but overall they were not elite as freshmen or sophomores on a severely depleted roster where they were often playing out of their natural roles". The same was true for some of the best and most memorable basketball players in MSU basketball history early in their career. Keep in mind that in an ideal environment, most of these guys would have been role players for a year or two -- and that's hopefully what they will be going forward. We shouldn't be defining what these guys are or are not based on their past -- and if we are -- we should be looking at the improvement they made from year 1 to year 2 and talking about how much we can extrapolate or expect them to improve from year 2 to year 3. By my count, we've got 6 guys on roster right now who have potential to be very good players for us -- and that isn't counting Roq, who has thusfar GREATLY exceeded my expectations at the 4. You can win with 7 very good players and a couple of other bodies giving you time here and there. You may not be able to go deep in March with that -- but you can do everything we got in the last 5 years of Stansbury with that.

I'm with you that we need to continue to upgrade talent. And we need to continue to develop talent. No doubt. I think I just believe we're closer to the light at the end of the tunnel than you do at this point...

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Originally Posted by engie

Great. So now we're quoting what REBELS have to say about Engie as "validation" to your girlish ego and thought process -- Truly fuggin full circle here at ELITEdawgs...

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I would much rather talk with a rebel than your dumbass any day.

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Originally Posted by engie

Your "one" requirement? You've had so many different requirements that we can't keep up with them all.

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What? Lie. Dress 13 scholis has been my one requirement since April. Look it up.

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Originally Posted by Dawg61

20 is less than 21 and 21 got him fired. Twenty wins is fair. 21 was a disaster that meant firing. Again twenty is fair. 17 wins is a fu@king joke. Will James could coach us to 17 wins in basketball.

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Except that he wasn't coaching in a vacuum during that last season, so you can't realistically compare things strictly numbers to numbers.

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Originally Posted by MadDawg

What agenda must you have to keep misstating this?

"So year 3 of a rebuild MUST equal or exceed the season that got Stansbury fired?

There, fixed it for you.

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You too? There was a whole lot more going on during Stansbury's last few years than simple wins and losses. Since you and Dawg61 cannot seem to grasp that simple concept, how about we compare this season to Stansbury's 3rd season: 2000-01 Mississippi State 18-13 7-9 T-4th (West);

And that was without inheriting a complete disaster in his first year. For the record, if we continue with this comparison: Stansbury's 2nd season - 14-16 (5-11). Ray's 2nd season - 14-19 (4-14). So in season 2 of the comparison, there wasn't much difference either. Again, without having inherited a complete dumpster fire.

I really think you guys are just trolling people at this point. And by people, I really mean engie, because he gets really uspet. However, these anti-Ray talking points (and well everything Dawg61 says about basketball, since his every post on the subject lacks any rational thinking) do get tiring. No one at all disputes that we must show signs of significant improvement this season or the Ray bandwagon will be lacking members.