Sure we accept...but we dont have to be happy about itQuote:
Originally Posted by TheRef
Sure we accept...but we dont have to be happy about itQuote:
Originally Posted by TheRef
Engie, you are a great poster and I usually agree with most you Post. Butt the constant comparing Ray to Cohen I just don't get. If your defending Ray means you have to throw Cohen in the argument you don't have much. There is a huge difference in Basketball and Baseball. Two elite players can change a shitty basketball team into a good one. Not so in baseball. Ray was a nobody assistant for an average Clemson team. Cohen was an elite Coach who had already won the SEC at a typical SEC doormat team. I never had a doubt JC would take MSU back to the top. I have serious doubt about Rick Ray. Not trying to start a pissing contest, just don't get the comparison.
Just discussing the short term ,but I think Wed vs UGA will be a very very big game for us. We win and I think we can win one or two more in conference. We lose and we are going on the road to Auburn and LSU and probably looking at a 8 game losing streak. Once a team takes that many lumps it is very hard to get them to continue to play hard.Ray will have to continue to find ways to keep the locker room together and not let the wheels fall completely off
The point that you don't get is that you are using hindsight to judge Cohen now and "what you thought would happen" when he was hired -- instead of putting yourself back into the timeframe of those first 2 years where it looked like FAR from a sure thing at times. You either weren't around SPS during the rebuild -- or have just blocked it all from memory. The fact that Cohen had the sterling resume going for him on the front end didn't stop people from flipping out on him during the rebuild. Not just one or two people either -- a sizable faction of the total fanbase. There were people actively campaigning to get Cohen out of here after year 2 -- that were still after Butch's ass until the start of year 4 when the pitching really got going with Stratton's emergence. Just about everyone that was active on message boards during that time "gets" the comparison even if they disagree. Given that Cohen had such a sterling resume and Ray is more of an unknown -- does it not then fit that Rick Ray should get even MORE patience than was afforded Cohen while allowing him the opportunity to prove himself?Quote:
Originally Posted by tcdog70
I disagree that it only takes 2 elite players to turn a bad basketball team into a good one. If that was the case, why aren't LSU and Tennessee in the top 25 and considered tournament locks? Hell, the entire SEC is littered with 5* talents lost in the shuffle on shitty teams. One or two "elite" talents are what puts good basketball teams "over the top". It does NOT fix shit shows going through a culture change like we needed in basketball -- and furthermore, those types of prima donna players could easily further incubate the problems that led to the previous staff's demise. So, I'm FINE with Ray building our foundation on workmanlike players. Let's get a solid foundation with character guys -- then we can go chase a few stars that will be forced by their teammates to buy in to the system -- which appears to be exactly what he is attempting to do.
Either way, my OVERWHELMING point that is totally ignored by everyone with a agenda for/against Ray is that you can't judge SHIT that happens in the first 2 years. Year 3 -- he either gets it done or he doesn't. It's as simple as that. Anyone prognosticating either way based on what we know at this point is an idiot -- even if they end up being correct. The data set is incomplete.
Engie is referencing the hundreds of posts made about Cohen and how he wasnt the guy for State. He wasnt Polk's choice and it wasnt working out. Lots of posts and posters running Cohen down for the first 2 1/2 seasons. Now suddenly- EVERYBODY that posts knew Cohen was the guy for the job.Quote:
Originally Posted by tcdog70
We're not saying Ray is Cohen- but we are saying the run down programs they took over are eerily similar. Ray has one recruiting class on the floor. Next year will be his 2nd. Let's judge when he has had his 2nd and 3rd recruiting classes hit the floor before we turn on the guy. He deserves that.
Didnt Kentucky sign 6-7 elite players last year and miss the NCAA Tourney?
Look , I know a lot of people thought Cohen wouldn't make it. But it wasn't Me. I wanted Him before Polk came back the second time. I also could see Croom could Coach for shit after about 5 games His first Year. I might be wrong but Ray ain't gonna make it. I hope I am wrong and We can at least get back to The Stansbury Standard of 20 wins. Ray , if He is worth a Shit, has an easier road to success because the SEC is WEAK. I don't have an agenda Like Coach 34 had in running down Stansbury. I'm just calling it like I see it. if Ray does something good , Hell, I'll give Him an attaboy.
Engie, you are on my ass for judging Ray. Ok please point out some of His qualities that make you think He can be successful. I have not seen anything other than His players play hard sometimes, But sometimes they don't. He can dance and He can holler 17 you. Don't see where that is going to help Us.
I said two elite plays could change a shitty team into a good team. There are exception to every rule. The Rebs picked one elite Player and they won the SEC tourney and got into the big dance.
The Rebs got into the Dance because of Holloway, Buckner, Summers, plus Henderson...plus White coming off the bench who is a solid playerQuote:
Originally Posted by tcdog70
Then the Cohen post isn't about you personally -- but the point still stands -- and the fact that it bothers you so badly leaves cause for pause -- to say the least.Quote:
Originally Posted by tcdog70
You are jumping the gun in judging Ray either way -- that's my whole point.
He inherited a total shitstorm. In year 1, people thought he would win 6 or 7, and he won 10. In year two, people thought he would win 13-14, and he's already basically surpassed those expectations. He's ahead of where people thought he would be. And that's beside the fact that we were down AT LEAST 5-6 scholarship players BOTH of these years.Quote:
Originally Posted by tcdog70
Let's flip it -- what has Ray done to prove to you that he can't be competitive and win in the SEC with 13 healthy scholarship players?
Ok, I'll buy that..The main thing to Me is His failure to recruit. He hasn't signed but 1 player that looks like He can play in the SEC --Ready. Although Ready looks to be an average SEC player. He is fragile, and a Smurf. he can't guard bigger SEC guards and His offense isn't good enough to cover up His defensive liability. I mean out of the Guys he has signed that haven't played who is gonna be a real SEC quality player? Daniel? Hope So, maybe the Kid Houston? If Daniel can't come in and at least take Borcherts place we haven't gained anything. If 2 elite players(in your and C34's opinion) can't come in and take a shitty team to a good team then we are in big trouble because up till now Ray hasn't signed 1 elite player. What about Pollard? I'm hearing Ray ain't interested. Thanks for a mature discussion, I would hope you are right and I am wrong. I just want MSU back to at least top 5 SEC programs.Quote:
Originally Posted by engie
My issue is with pre-eminently defining a ceiling based on basketball recruiting rankings. Think these guys aren't pros at football? Well, the same ones are assigning the rankings in basketball. We've seen one true Ray recruit on the floor, Ready, who IMO is oozing potential. I've heard a bunch of glowing reports from scrimmages of Ndoye really growing as a scorer as well. So, time(next year) will tell...
We owe it to Ray to let him to get a full roster with a few of his own classes in, and then allow him to define that ceiling for himself without us doing it for him before he's been given a fair shake. You can win big in basketball without elite recruiting -- and quite a few teams prove that every year in March. That's not to say he will or he won't -- but it's no time to be throwing in the towel...
Coach thinks he needs 4 years -- I think he better be in the postseason in year 3 before going dancing in year 4 or else I'm going to be on the fence at best about him. Next year, it's Stansbury expectations 100% from me, and Ray's free pass is over.
The fourth player I put a ? behind their names. Can you not figure out what that means yourself? And I'll bet you all my VCash Devonta Pollard is better than Ndoye and/or Black.Quote:
Originally Posted by NewTweederEndzoneDance
Pollard sure didnt show much at Bama his Freshman year- he wasnt Roq Johnson good
Don't like Pollard, fine how bout the guy in Bama Juco Jay Watkins avg 26 & 10? I could post all day long players that are most likely better than our four. Upgrades folks. We need SHOOTERS, scores and upgrades.Quote:
Originally Posted by Coach34
I agree on shooters. I would love a 6'4 G that is a zone-busting mf'er. I'm sure Ray would too
We need a Ray White clone with a Chucky Evans as PG
shit-Wiley Peck and Timmy Bowers didn't show much as freshmen.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dawg61