The Covid-19 Info thread (keep politics out please)

So if you're saying there's 1000s of undocumented NYC deaths due to corona, you have to concede there's what 10000s of undocumented cases, right?

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Originally Posted by msstate7

So if you're saying there's 1000s of undocumented NYC deaths due to corona, you have to concede there's what 10000s of undocumented cases, right?

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of course.

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Originally Posted by deadheaddawg

of course.

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It's obvious, but I was directing at hacker mainly. He's sorta been against my theory that the documented cases are way off

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Originally Posted by msstate7

It's obvious, but I was directing at hacker mainly. He's sorta been against my theory that the documented cases are way off

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I think the documented cases are probably a lot higher. I dont by the idea that a bunch of people had this in Dec and just thought it was a cold. We had about 2,000 die from COVID yesterday. We will probably have 2,000 more today. If it had been here since December we would have already seen a large number of deaths.

But I think the current documented cases are probably off by a large amount.

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Originally Posted by BeardoMSU

What would be the benefit of doing that?

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They're dying at home (or in ambulance, or before testing at hospital, etc) and just haven't been tested. Tests are precious.

https://i.imgur.com/g2wrtBU.png

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Originally Posted by msstate7

It's obvious, but I was directing at hacker mainly. He's sorta been against my theory that the documented cases are way off

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I don't think I ever said they weren't off. I do think they're off, but not like, "we're close to herd immunity" level type of off. If I had to guess, I'd say like 5x our current cases. That'd put us around 2 million cases. 325 million population left without immunity.

You guys my age who learn COBOL in the 80's the Government needs your help. No kidding!

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Originally Posted by Jack Lambert

You guys my age who learn COBOL in the 80's the Government needs your help. No kidding!

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How about us FORTRAN guys? :)

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Originally Posted by Gutter Cobreh

So you analyzing health data is "working in healthcare", but someone like a janitor or maintenance tech who actually works in a hospital is not considered "working in healthcare"?

I can guarantee you that those housekeepers cleaning rooms are on the "front lines". They may not be as intimately related as respiratory therapists, nurses, MDs, etc. but they are a lot damn closer to the action than you are....

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I never said he did not work in healthcare. That's putting words in my mouth. I said he likely doesn't do anything healthcare related. IE, work closely with patients / data to where he would be able to see what's going on. He can be closer in physical proximity while being further from understanding what's happening.

I consider the front lines to be doctors / nurses / people of that ilk. They are up close and personal AND they have access to the data. That's my criteria for the front lines. But being close to the action does not mean understanding the action.

If jimbob lived right next to the hospital and worked an accounting job remotely would you consider him closer to the action than joedan who quarantined out in the sticks with his internet access helping view patient data and give input based on what was recorded. I mean jimbob is right next to it every day. Surely he's closer than joedan right?

Matt showed a clear lack of understanding of the seriousness of the issue and joined the countless others in this thread that have been proven wrong time and again. If he's privy to patient data then he would surely have had a different opinion. If he's seriously an RN then his coworkers would be sickened to hear him calling this a media craze.

Just watching the press conference - looks like Dr Fauci and some of the reporters have had recent haircuts. How'd they manage that?

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Originally Posted by RocketDawg

Just watching the press conference - looks like Dr Fauci and some of the reporters have had recent haircuts. How'd they manage that?

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Scissors probably. With an electric razor to clean up the edges

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Originally Posted by RocketDawg

Just watching the press conference - looks like Dr Fauci and some of the reporters have had recent haircuts. How'd they manage that?

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Asking the real questions. I'm starting to look homeless.

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Originally Posted by Coldsleeve Jr.

We shouldn't disapprove bc there's an entire committee doing it, not 1 human as you've suggested.

Perhaps the president doesn't want someone leading that committee that staged false claims that led to a phony impeachment scam that took the attention away from covid19. Dictatorship LMFAO

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Actually you're thinking of the Atkinson guy he fired last friday. Fine is a totally different person he removed from this group. Man has been busy removing people in his way, so I excuse you for getting the two messed up. Removing the chosen leader of this group is effectively cutting the group's decision making off at the head and saying they have to bend to him.

And the impeachment did not distract from COVID. There was a month after the end of inaction by Trump. That's ludicrous to suggest the aftermath of that distracted him that long when he was calling it the liberal's new hoax at campaign rallies a month later. She clearly had enough time to investigate to reach that dumb conclusion.

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Originally Posted by yjnkdawg

It could be that the OP who initiated this thread (not you) requested that politics be left out of this thread and on this particular board politics is not allowed. Maybe you have a better synopsis?

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Scoob edited that in, not the OP. Then has seemingly let this run its course and culled us out from arguing politics in other threads. Treating this one as a lost cause.

My synopsis would be he initially wanted to get rid of politics entirely but realized that this discussion would be difficult to moderate politics out as it is such a highly politicized issue in its nature. Better to let one thread run amok than have to cut down several different threads of arguing. That way the people who are gonna ignore the rule can do so in their "safe space" and people who want to ignore it can do so easily. Add on top of this that I believe moderating is the least of his concerns right now, it's the decision that makes everyone's life the easiest.

This thread needs to be canned.

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Originally Posted by deadheaddawg

I dont think there is a benefit, I just think it is what it is. Like Hacker said, there daily deaths at home have sky rocketed since this. That isn't a coincidence.


Scores of ?probable? coronavirus deaths not counted in NYC tally
https://nypost.com/2020/04/07/scores...d-by-the-city/

Dozens ? if not hundreds ? of coronavirus deaths in New York City will not be included in the Big Apple?s grim tally, because victims died at home without being tested, The Post has learned.

Luciano Todman ? a 28-year-old with no underlying symptoms ? died early on March 29 in his Bronx apartment after days of diarrhea, vomiting, difficulty breathing, his mother told first responders, according to police sources.

In Flushing, 80-year-old Ho Louie was sent home from the hospital, where his doctor said it would be safer, after four days fighting coronavirus-like symptoms. He died on April 1 just before 11 a.m., sources said.

Another Queens man was found unresponsive in his apartment on April 3, according to sources. The 50-year-old Thokmey Thokmey had tried a few days earlier to get tested but was turned away at the hospital after it ran out of tests.

Todman, Thokmey and Louie are among the 80 death investigations involving people who showed signs of the pandemic COVID-19 between March 22 and Tuesday, according to more than 100 cases reviewed by The Post.

None of those cases, though, were included in the total count of New Yorkers claimed by coronavirus because they weren?t tested before dying.

And those are number only come from calls cops responded to.

At the same time, city paramedics were answering hundreds of more calls for cardiac arrest that include COVID-19 symptoms ? with the death count worse than ?wartime.?

?Out of the 12 [cardiac cases], I did on Sunday 10 had COVID symptoms. Flu-like symptoms, cough, etc. Nobody made it back. That?s going on all over the city,? said Anthony Almojera, vice president of FDNY, EMS union local 3621.

?There?s gotta be 200 a day? obviously are not all COVID, but they aren?t being tested,? he said.

The FDNY confirmed that paramedics are seeing more than 300 calls for cardiac arrest with ?well over? 200 people dying each day. Typically paramedics would deal with around two dozen deaths on around 54 to 74 cardiac arrest calls.


On Sunday alone, EMS responded to 322 calls ? but only 81 survived.

A total 2,192 people died during similar calls between March 20 and April 5 ? compared to 453 during the same time last year.

?Obviously we deal with death but not on this level,? Almojera said. ?It?s crazy.?

New York City?s death toll ? which surged past 3,000 on Tuesday ? only includes the number of confirmed cases. The city does not test people for the disease after they?ve died ? even if they end up in the Medical Examiner?s Office after fighting coronavirus-like symptoms.

The OCME has reported these deaths to the Health Department as ?probable? but it was unknown how many of these cases were, and the city wouldn?t say whether bodies were being tested when The Post asked two weeks ago. The OCME , it could severely affect the next person to contract the virus.

?

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And on the flip side .. they're reporting anyone that dies with covid in a hospital as dying from it, when some are within a year to 5 years of dying anyway due to underlying conditions.

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Originally Posted by dantheman4248

I never said he did not work in healthcare. That's putting words in my mouth. I said he likely doesn't do anything healthcare related. IE, work closely with patients / data to where he would be able to see what's going on. He can be closer in physical proximity while being further from understanding what's happening.

I consider the front lines to be doctors / nurses / people of that ilk. They are up close and personal AND they have access to the data. That's my criteria for the front lines. But being close to the action does not mean understanding the action.

If jimbob lived right next to the hospital and worked an accounting job remotely would you consider him closer to the action than joedan who quarantined out in the sticks with his internet access helping view patient data and give input based on what was recorded. I mean jimbob is right next to it every day. Surely he's closer than joedan right?

Matt showed a clear lack of understanding of the seriousness of the issue and joined the countless others in this thread that have been proven wrong time and again. If he's privy to patient data then he would surely have had a different opinion. If he's seriously an RN then his coworkers would be sickened to hear him calling this a media craze.

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If you understand "the action" like you understand probability and statistics then we in trouble ****

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Originally Posted by dantheman4248

Speaking as someone who DOES work in healthcare... the guy Beardo responded to definitely doesn't actually do anything healthcare related. He probably works as a janitor/maintenance in a hospital and calls that healthcare. No way he's "on the front lines". (For the record, I'm not either.)

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Originally Posted by dantheman4248

I never said he did not work in healthcare. That's putting words in my mouth. I said he likely doesn't do anything healthcare related. IE, work closely with patients / data to where he would be able to see what's going on. He can be closer in physical proximity while being further from understanding what's happening.

I consider the front lines to be doctors / nurses / people of that ilk. They are up close and personal AND they have access to the data. That's my criteria for the front lines. But being close to the action does not mean understanding the action.

If jimbob lived right next to the hospital and worked an accounting job remotely would you consider him closer to the action than joedan who quarantined out in the sticks with his internet access helping view patient data and give input based on what was recorded. I mean jimbob is right next to it every day. Surely he's closer than joedan right?

Matt showed a clear lack of understanding of the seriousness of the issue and joined the countless others in this thread that have been proven wrong time and again. If he's privy to patient data then he would surely have had a different opinion. If he's seriously an RN then his coworkers would be sickened to hear him calling this a media craze.

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I'll link what you posted again for you to re-read. If you think that "healthcare" is only the clinicians, you literally have no idea how the industry works. I won't get into the details, but if you don't think that maintenance, housekeeping, or any other support service in a hospital doesn't play a role in patient outcomes - then you're an idiot.

Dantheman- quick question for you since you know it all about healthcare.

COVID patients need to be placed in negative pressure room. Who in the hospital ensures that patient rooms have the correct pressure? To help you - it isn't a nurse, physician, or data analyst. I'll wait to hear your answer now that I've ruled out some options for you...and by your answer please let me know if that role is "healthcare related" or "someone on the front lines"....

But what about the statisticians?!?

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Originally Posted by dawgday166

And on the flip side .. they're reporting anyone that dies with covid in a hospital as dying from it, when some are within a year to 5 years of dying anyway due to underlying conditions.

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Yes, this is how deaths are reported. Nothing special about covid. If that same person with underlying conditions got the flu and died from it, that's a flu death. Or if that person got in a car wreck and died, that's an auto accident death. There is no flip side.

You ever hear of people who were supposed to die at a young age but ended up living a long, fruitful life? You can't just say because somebody is "supposed" to die within a couple years that they don't count. IMO anyway.

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Originally Posted by hacker

Yes, this is how deaths are reported. Nothing special about covid. If that same person with underlying conditions got the flu and died from it, that's a flu death. Or if that person got in a car wreck and died, that's an auto accident death. There is no flip side.

You ever hear of people who were supposed to die at a young age but ended up living a long, fruitful life? You can't just say because somebody is "supposed" to die within a couple years that they don't count. IMO anyway.

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So if someone has stage four cancer and has less than a month to live and has covid and it's counted as a covid case, THats how it works?? I get it, more people have died from it than reported. And more have contracted it, most of which we wil never know. And I don't think it's close.

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Originally Posted by dawgday166

And on the flip side .. they're reporting anyone that dies with covid in a hospital as dying from it, when some are within a year to 5 years of dying anyway due to underlying conditions.

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That's not really the flip side. You are saying that when covid speeds up the dying process.....by up to 5 years.....it shouldn't be attributed to covid?

That doesn't make much sense tbh. Thats one reason why this is such a dangerous illness. We knew that this was s very lethal for people with pre-existing conditions.

But if it knocks 1-5 years off your life, then absolutely it should be included.

If someone with COVID gets shot in the head, it should not count. But If someone with a weak heart or a heart condition is in the hospital because they are sick enough with COVID to be hospitalized and they die...that should count.

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Originally Posted by Homedawg

So if someone has stage four cancer and has less than a month to live and has covid and it's counted as a covid case, THats how it works?? I get it, more people have died from it than reported. And more have contracted it, most of which we wil never know. And I don't think it's close.

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Exactly!

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Originally Posted by Gutter Cobreh

Dantheman- quick question for you since you know it all about healthcare.

COVID patients need to be placed in negative pressure room. Who in the hospital ensures that patient rooms have the correct pressure? To help you - it isn't a nurse, physician, or data analyst. I'll wait to hear your answer now that I've ruled out some options for you...and by your answer please let me know if that role is "healthcare related" or "someone on the front lines"....

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He can know WHAT he's doing and not understand WHY he's doing it. Again that's why I said I consider those working closely with the patients AND privy to the data as the front lines.

As for thinking i said healthcare is only the clinicians, you are the one who needs to reread. I said people of that ilk are the frontline. I consider myself healthcare even though I'm not in the hospital.

You're missing the point that I'm making. Matt clearly showed 0 knowledge of actual healthcare data. Ergo he likely works a job in a hospital where he has no access to data. If you want to call that front lines because he's physically in the hospital then fine, we have different definitions. Again I believe being there AND having access to the data is the front lines. I haven't met a single person other than him who claimed to have access to the data whether front lines or not that held the same opinion.

So, you have no idea then?

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Originally Posted by Homedawg

So if someone has stage four cancer and has less than a month to live and has covid and it's counted as a covid case, THats how it works?? I get it, more people have died from it than reported. And more have contracted it, most of which we wil never know. And I don't think it's close.

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That would be an extreme minority, likely statistically negligent, number of patients. The death numbers we have are going to be pretty close to accurate and that's with give or take.

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Originally Posted by Homedawg

So if someone has stage four cancer and has less than a month to live and has covid and it's counted as a covid case, THats how it works?? I get it, more people have died from it than reported. And more have contracted it, most of which we wil never know. And I don't think it's close.

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Yes. Like I said earlier, if they got in an auto accident on the way to the cancer clinic, it'd be an auto fatality. That is how deaths are reported. The acute cause of death.

Just for posterity, for anyone thinking the death toll is inflated:

Dr. Birx on the subject:

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?We have heard both sides,? Dr. Birx said. ?We have made it clear about the comorbidities. Most of the people -- and we talked about the Italy data -- the majority of Italians who succumbed to this had three or more comorbidities. This has been known from the beginning. Those individuals will have an underlying condition, but that underlying condition did not cause their acute death when related to a COVID infection. In fact, it is the opposite. Having an underlying condition and getting this virus is particularly damaging to those individuals.?

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Dr. Fauci:

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Infectious disease expert Anthony Fauci on Wednesday called conspiracy theories suggesting the novel coronavirus death toll is inflated because sick people are dying with the virus ? not because of it ? "nothing but distractions."

What they're saying: Fauci said at the White House press briefing, "You will always have conspiracy theories when you have very challenging public health crises. They are nothing but distractions."

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Trump:

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President Donald Trump said that he believes the death counts published by state health organizations, Johns Hopkins University and the CDC are accurate.

?I think they are pretty accurate,? Trump said. ?Somebody dies. I think the states have been pretty accurate. That's a big deal, what you just said the death counts, I think they are very accurate.?

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Let's talk about some good news. Our curve of new cases definitely appears to be flattening and at the same time our % of positive tests is dropping. We've had around 9 days in a row between 25K-35K new cases. Hospitalizations are falling in NYC. Hospital discharges are up in NYC. NYC is not going to run out of ventilators or hospital beds unless something drastically changes. Mississippi's new cases have been flat for a while as well.

This is happening because of social distancing. It's working.

We're still going to have to ride out the plateau and the drop of the curve in our quarantines. Probably 1-2 more months. Deaths will continue to rise for another week or two then start dropping. Then we'll need a plan for preventing future outbreaks. When school and college and everything starts back up in the fall, if we're not careful, this will happen again.

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Originally Posted by hacker

Yes. Like I said earlier, if they got in an auto accident on the way to the cancer clinic, it'd be an auto fatality. That is how deaths are reported. The acute cause of death.

Just for posterity, for anyone thinking the death toll is inflated:

Dr. Birx on the subject:




Dr. Fauci:




Trump:

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Everyone has their own perspective and what they believe. I respect that. But I personally think they are trying to inflate the numbers. Not for political reason. They shut our entire economy down base on models that were way off and those models took into account social distancing. Everything they screamed about did not come true. Not enough ventilators not enough beds or ICU units. They have been so off on every thing. I suspect we are one more drastic lowering of the death rate from President Trump telling them to kiss his ass.

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Originally Posted by Jack Lambert

Everyone has their own perspective and what they believe. I respect that. But I personally think they are trying to inflate the numbers. Not for political reason. They shut our entire economy down base on models that were way off and those models took into account social distancing. Everything they screamed about did not come true. Not enough ventilators not enough beds or ICU units. They have been so off on every thing. I suspect we are one more drastic lowering of the death rate from President Trump telling them to kiss his ass.

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This. The apocalyptic numbers being beat into us at the beginning of this were never going to happen and those projections are not even going to be close to accurate when this is all said and done. I sat in the office of one of the nations best infectious disease doctors a month ago and he just shook his head at the extreme numbers that were being projected. A doctor with over 25+ years in the field(not some medical theorist). He told me the numbers would be nowhere close to what was being projected even if we did nothing. The damage to our economy and peoples lives are going to be far greater than the effects of this virus.

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Originally Posted by Jack Lambert

Everyone has their own perspective and what they believe. I respect that. But I personally think they are trying to inflate the numbers. Not for political reason. They shut our entire economy down base on models that were way off and those models took into account social distancing. Everything they screamed about did not come true. Not enough ventilators not enough beds or ICU units. They have been so off on every thing. I suspect we are one more drastic lowering of the death rate from President Trump telling them to kiss his ass.

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I posted a quote from Trump saying the numbers were accurate. What more do you want?

And why did those things not come true? Here, I'll help:

https://i.insider.com/5e7387ddc48540...jpeg&auto=webp

https://i.insider.com/5e73829bc48540...jpeg&auto=webp

https://i.insider.com/5e738682c48540...jpeg&auto=webp

https://www.fox8live.com/resizer/qcm...EJOF4HIN3U.jpg

https://bloximages.newyork1.vip.town...ze=1700%2C1156

https://patch.com/img/cdn20/users/22....jpg?width=725

https://patch.com/img/cdn20/users/22....jpg?width=725

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Originally Posted by dantheman4248

He can know WHAT he's doing and not understand WHY he's doing it. Again that's why I said I consider those working closely with the patients AND privy to the data as the front lines.

As for thinking i said healthcare is only the clinicians, you are the one who needs to reread. I said people of that ilk are the frontline. I consider myself healthcare even though I'm not in the hospital.

You're missing the point that I'm making. Matt clearly showed 0 knowledge of actual healthcare data. Ergo he likely works a job in a hospital where he has no access to data. If you want to call that front lines because he's physically in the hospital then fine, we have different definitions. Again I believe being there AND having access to the data is the front lines. I haven't met a single person other than him who claimed to have access to the data whether front lines or not that held the same opinion.

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A pathogen doesn't care about who knows data, as it doesn't discriminate.

Let me simplify this for you yet again - if you're currently working in a position that is deemed "essential" and your work exposes you to the chance of contracting the virus - you're on the front lines. That could be in a hospital, grocery store, delivering supplies, etc. Please stop trying to twist what you initially said by adding additional criteria to make it seem like what you do is any more important than someone else.

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Originally Posted by dantheman4248

Actually you're thinking of the Atkinson guy he fired last friday. Fine is a totally different person he removed from this group. Man has been busy removing people in his way, so I excuse you for getting the two messed up. Removing the chosen leader of this group is effectively cutting the group's decision making off at the head and saying they have to bend to him.

And the impeachment did not distract from COVID. There was a month after the end of inaction by Trump. That's ludicrous to suggest the aftermath of that distracted him that long when he was calling it the liberal's new hoax at campaign rallies a month later. She clearly had enough time to investigate to reach that dumb conclusion.

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No. I'm not. I'm referring to Fine, who was replaced by Sean O'Donnel, on the Pandemic Response Accountability Committee.

You really should change whatever channel you're watching...

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.was...outputType=amp

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Originally Posted by hacker

I posted a quote from Trump saying the numbers were accurate. What more do you want?

And why did those things not come true? Here, I'll help:

https://i.insider.com/5e7387ddc48540...jpeg&auto=webp

https://i.insider.com/5e73829bc48540...jpeg&auto=webp

https://i.insider.com/5e738682c48540...jpeg&auto=webp

https://www.fox8live.com/resizer/qcm...EJOF4HIN3U.jpg

https://bloximages.newyork1.vip.town...ze=1700%2C1156

https://patch.com/img/cdn20/users/22....jpg?width=725

https://patch.com/img/cdn20/users/22....jpg?width=725

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I'm still going to believe what I want to believe. So far 16 million plus americans have lost jobs.

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Originally Posted by Coldsleeve Jr.

No. I'm not. I'm referring to Fine, who was replaced by Sean O'Donnel, on the Pandemic Response Accountability Committee.

You really should change whatever channel you're watching...

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.was...outputType=amp

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It's. In. The. Article. You. Linked.

"On Friday, the president notified Congress that he was removing Michael Atkinson as the inspector general of the intelligence community — a decision that Trump acknowledged was in response to Atkinson’s having alerted lawmakers to the existence of a whistleblower complaint about the president’s dealings with Ukraine. The matter ultimately led to Trump’s impeachment in the House before his acquittal in the Senate."

Coldsleeve Jr: "Perhaps the president doesn't want someone leading that committee that staged false claims that led to a phony impeachment scam that took the attention away from covid19."

I'm tuned into the same channel you are tuned into bud. And you still can't get it right. Holy moly.

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Originally Posted by Gutter Cobreh

A pathogen doesn't care about who knows data, as it doesn't discriminate.

Let me simplify this for you yet again - if you're currently working in a position that is deemed "essential" and your work exposes you to the chance of contracting the virus - you're on the front lines. That could be in a hospital, grocery store, delivering supplies, etc. Please stop trying to twist what you initially said by adding additional criteria to make it seem like what you do is any more important than someone else.

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No, you're twisting what I said there. I've never said my job is "more important". I've said my job gives me more access. I am more informed. That does not mean that I'm "more important".

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Originally Posted by dantheman4248

It's. In. The. Article. You. Linked.

"On Friday, the president notified Congress that he was removing Michael Atkinson as the inspector general of the intelligence community — a decision that Trump acknowledged was in response to Atkinson’s having alerted lawmakers to the existence of a whistleblower complaint about the president’s dealings with Ukraine. The matter ultimately led to Trump’s impeachment in the House before his acquittal in the Senate."

Coldsleeve Jr: "Perhaps the president doesn't want someone leading that committee that staged false claims that led to a phony impeachment scam that took the attention away from covid19."

I'm tuned into the same channel you are tuned into bud. And you still can't get it right. Holy moly.

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I'm embarrassed for you...

"Glenn Fine, who had been the acting Pentagon inspector general, was informed Monday that he was being replaced at the Defense Department by Sean W. O’Donnell, currently the inspector general at the Environmental Protection Agency. O’Donnell will simultaneously be inspector general at the EPA and acting IG at the Pentagon until a permanent replacement is confirmed for the Defense Department."

"Late last month, Fine was selected by the head of a council of inspectors general to lead the Pandemic Response Accountability Committee, created by the March 27 law."

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Originally Posted by hacker

Yes, this is how deaths are reported. Nothing special about covid. If that same person with underlying conditions got the flu and died from it, that's a flu death. Or if that person got in a car wreck and died, that's an auto accident death. There is no flip side.

You ever hear of people who were supposed to die at a young age but ended up living a long, fruitful life? You can't just say because somebody is "supposed" to die within a couple years that they don't count. IMO anyway.

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This is inconsistent with what read. Can't remember the source, but it definitely wasn't something like CDC literature or anything, but I read that if somebody with say cancer or aids gets the flu and/or pneumonia and dies because of their weakened immune system, that would would be recorded as something like "complications related to cancer" or "complications related to aids". No clue if that's right or not.

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Originally Posted by Johnson85

This is inconsistent with what read. Can't remember the source, but it definitely wasn't something like CDC literature or anything, but I read that if somebody with say cancer or aids gets the flu and/or pneumonia and dies because of their weakened immune system, that would would be recorded as something like "complications related to cancer" or "complications related to aids". No clue if that's right or not.

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I'd think this was correct. Take AIDS, it doesn't kill you, does it? I think it just weakens your immune system to the point where something else does. The death would still be AIDS though, right?