But just letting things go and still losing to USA would definitely have an impact on the rest of the year.Quote:
Originally Posted by Doggie_Style
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But just letting things go and still losing to USA would definitely have an impact on the rest of the year.Quote:
Originally Posted by Doggie_Style
Amazing when Bear Bryant did this kind of thing, he was called a great coach. Guess times have changed.
First of all, Andruw Jones wasn't as good as Willie Mays defensively or Ken Griffey, Jr., among others. He's overrated at best, lazy at worst.Quote:
Originally Posted by msstate7
Second of all Cox had other outfielders to use.
Thirdly we did try to win the ****ing game by putting the best available players on the field that we could late. You know how I know that? Because of Cann's interview after the game where he told the media that you either give full effort (paraphrase because I know that's not the exact and you're going to nitpick it) you're going to be sitting by him on the bench.
On top of that, I have seen MLB teams use pitchers in the OF before too. I remember the Cubs doing it a few years ago. I remember the Cardinals doing it with Todd Worrell against the Mets in the 80's and then double switching out for a L/R match-up.
The BOTTOM LINE is what he did wasn't risky statistically speaking. NOTHING happened in terms of injury- which is not shocking given the odds. And if you think we weren't trying to win the game- you're clueless. And going after Cann for putting the best players available to us at the time- and remember the Braves can't legally call up players in the middle of a game because of MLB roster rules so get out of here with that bullshit as if the guys at AAA are just as good anyway- and then saying that he "gave up" because he took out players that were already giving HALF ASSED EFFORT and weren't going to change in that moment anyway is contradictory at worst and just plain baseball ignorant at best.
We can't have coaches that yell, or do things that might hurt our players feelings. Or maybe they're just sports/baseball ignorant.Quote:
Originally Posted by Commercecomet24
Some of these guys sound like my Mom telling me I could have gotten into an accident on I-55 when I was driving there in high school. Even though- guess what? It didn't happen.
I mean, I can't wrap around my head that they think our coach actually "quit" because he took out players that weren't giving full effort like they should. What the hell do they want? And then because he had to put in pitchers because we're down to like 23 guys or whatever it is they're mad because "someone could have gotten hurt?" And to top it off- NO ONE EVEN GOT HURT!
It's ludicrous.
I think he's what I call a "pleaser".Quote:
Originally Posted by TNDawg35
You know- one of those "it's only a game, let's all have fun and show good sportsmanship and then if we lose we'll just all talk about how we're more classy than the other team" people. I can't stand those people personally.
Yep. I know one thing for sure and without question, the first time you give in and don't correct lollygagging and lack of effort it becomes epidemic and you're screwed. Baseball really is different than a lot of sports because it moves at a more leisurely pace and sometimes it's easy(especially with young,young players) to lose focus and sometimes reality has to hit them upside the head. Had a coach years ago used to call those little teaching moments "brain dusters".Quote:
Originally Posted by Todd4State
Rep Given!Quote:
Originally Posted by Todd4State
Griffey better than andruw? LolQuote:
Originally Posted by Todd4State
UZR...
KG = -110
AJ = 128.8
Def value on fangraphs...
KG = -39.6
AJ = 281.3
Willie mays' best Def value on fangraphs was 20.1 in '54. Andruw topped that 8 times with a max at 38.5
Baseball reference disagrees with you also.
dWAR...
AJ = 24.1
KG = 1.3
WM = 18.1
Using unrefined defensive metrics to prove a point?Quote:
Originally Posted by msstate7
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rpkco2rHsKc
Times Andruw Jones was pulled for loafing? At least twice.
The only people that think that Andruw Jones is best CF of all time are Braves homers.
This would be like me claiming that Ozzie Smith is a better SS than Derek Jeter solely because of his defense.
I never saw Willie mays, but Griffey over Andruw is just dumb. I don't need stats to know that, but the stats show Griffey wasn't even good in CF much less in Andruw's classQuote:
Originally Posted by Todd4State
Exactly and thank you for the rep!Quote:
Originally Posted by Commercecomet24
Ok, let me see if I can address a few points:
1. Pilk is from South MS, just 20 minutes away from Mobile and USA's campus. He wasn't going to pitch, but his family and hometown friends were there. So let the kid play.
2. Pilk played 1B in HS too, and could crank the ball. But from the look of last night and how he waved at the 3rd strike, he's not picked up a bat in a while. So he could play 1B, but would be a liability at the plate until he got more comfortable batting again. Dual position threat, hardly, but in a pinch, could be.
3. Cann showed NO fire last night and showed me that he didn't care about a mid-week game. There were 2 questionable calls on bang/bang plays at first that from my eye were dead wrong and both went in USA's favor. Cann should have been in the ump's face for that. He did get catcher interference called on USA and we got a free base runner, but still those other plays were difference makers too.
It's dumb if you're a Braves homer. Of course I don't particularly care for players that are lazy and based on this thread you obviously have no problem with that.Quote:
Originally Posted by msstate7
MLB Network did a list of the top 9 CF's of all time and Jones didn't even MAKE THE LIST. Griffey, Jr. did. I guess they're dumb too.
If they made a list of the best DEFENSIVE CFs of all time and Andruw wasn't top 9, then yeah, they dumbQuote:
Originally Posted by Todd4State
One thing I've learned from watching baseball is if the coaches don't get upset about a bang bang call it's probably because the coaches thought the umpire got it right.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bama_Dawg
Before injuries to Griffey, there was no comparison. I could name 10 better centerfielders than Jones just off the top of my head. Braves fans .........Quote:
Originally Posted by msstate7
Just curious... which of our players are lazy and you don't care for?Quote:
Originally Posted by Todd4State
Let's hear em... is it just your eye test or can you back it up with actual stats?Quote:
Originally Posted by Cooterpoot
If they made a top 9 of players that wasted their talent he would be on that list too. Probably at number one. I don't care what the stats say- I can't put someone that lazy at number one. Especially with stats that are likely to be outdated in a few years.Quote:
Originally Posted by msstate7
The same ones that Cann called out for their effort last night.Quote:
Originally Posted by msstate7
I think Mays made the best play in baseball history. Some of Griffey's were memorable too- like the time he broke his wrist making that catch in CF when he was with the Mariners. I honestly can't think of an Andruw Jones play that stands out to me. Edmonds arm wasn't as good- but he was a better player than Jones and he made some ridiculous plays. Trout is a great CF too. Torrii Hunter is great.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cooterpoot
One thing I've learned coaching baseball is if you get on an ump, the next time there is a questionable call, he'll be more likely to call in your favor just to keep you off his a$$.Quote:
Originally Posted by Todd4State
Or either toss you...but hey, its a mid-week game...
In no particular order:Quote:
Originally Posted by msstate7
1. Mays
2. Mantle
3. Cobb
4. Trout (will eventually be the greatest ever barring injury)
5. Cool Pappa Bell
6. Griffey
7. DiMaggio
8. Duke Snider (I debated this one)
9. Beltran
10. Speaker
I'd probably drop Andrew with a U around 15-20 maybe.
msstate7, here you go again on a entirely different subject, this post wasn't about the Braves but yet you go into that energize bunny trot which keeps this post longer and longer. Plus you've said in at least 6 or 7 replies you didn't like Cann's decision last night then you go into the "WHAT IF" someone gets hurt, no one did!
Please someone get a block button.
Kiermaier and inciarte are best defensive CFs right now. I know, I know (haha) inciarte is a brave, but he is right below kiermaierQuote:
Originally Posted by Todd4State
Or sometimes you'll piss them off and then you won't get any calls. It just depends on the umpire.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bama_Dawg
This. And fight the fights worth fighting. Or only if you've gotten hosed before. It's like bitching about balls and strikes after they guy missed one pitch. Gets you nowhere.Quote:
Originally Posted by Todd4State
If Cohen had done this people would lose their shit. If the players aren't giving their all then why are we 2nd in the league? It is tough to play at such a high level college baseball consistently. Maybe our guys were a little exhausted. Its mid season and he's gonna throw what few players he has under the bus? He'll lose all of them with that kind of shit. I like the Cann and think he is a great hitting coach but he also does seem to be a little short sighted. Maybe this will be a learning experience for both the players and the coach.
He didn't quit on shit. You're ****ing lost.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dawgpatrol
I'm on here saying try and win the game and your saying play everyone but I'm the one who is trying to please everyone. Plus best available hitters available were Gordon or Lovelady at least according to them being identified as position players. All I read before the season was Gordon can smash it and how we have to get him in the lineup, well put him up to bat over pitchers in a 3-0 game with 2 runners on and see if he can smash one then.Quote:
Originally Posted by Todd4State
Well, I hope this rant kept the OP from going the way of the dodo bird.
First, it's hilarious to see a Cardinals fan say something like this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Todd4State
Second:
http://www.espn.com/blog/sweetspot/p...-the-best-ever
http://www.beyondtheboxscore.com/201...w-jones-braves
http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/in-de...e-credentials/
http://www.gammonsdaily.com/is-andru...hall-of-famer/
Andruw Jones is underrated. He is the unquestioned best defensive CF of all-time, and in his prime he was flat out unbelievable there. If you don't know of any plays, it's because you never watched him. The spider-man catch is at least as good as Mays' over-the-shoulder catch, it just didn't come in the World Series. And part of Andruw's genius was that when you saw him have to really run down a catch but ultimately make it standing up, there is a good chance that no other CF in baseball history makes the play without laying out completely for it.
Where did I say "play everyone"? I said play the guys that are playing hard. We just so happened to have to empty the bench to do that and you didn't like it. It's pretty ironic that you don't want us to hit our Friday night guy but out Saturday night guy is OK? And I'm still fine with Cann resting Lovelady.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dawgpatrol
You are a "pleaser". You're all worried about the players about Cann throwing them under the bus- which he didn't do-, what the South Alabama fans thought and all of that other bullshit, and how someone "could have" gotten hurt and blaming Cann for it all the while not even realizing the THE REASON he did what he did was because the players weren't putting out an acceptable performance. And to me- honestly- it's disrespectful to the game of baseball to not play as hard as you can no matter who the opponent is. But none of that other crap that you're talking about matters. It would be real ****ing nice if you just let our coach handle this his way since that's what we're paying him to do not to mention so far he has done a pretty good job and he deserves at least a benefit of the doubt. A coach that has played in the Big Leagues and knows what kind of effort it takes to get there and be a pro- which you have zero concept of. If you put forth a half assed effort in MLB every night you're going to be riding a bus and playing for a team called the Baby Cakes or some crap like that.
No one is saying that they haven't given their all the entire year. Everyone IS saying- including the coach- that we didn't give our all last night and that's unacceptable.Quote:
Originally Posted by Maroon Wizardry
He's "underrated" because he was lazy. I've only seen him in person a few times. It's hilarious to see anyone say that any Andruw Jones catch ever was as good as Mays catch. Mays had to run almost 500 feet in the old Polo Grounds to make that catch and then he threw a strike from CF to prevent the runners from advancing. He's the best defensive center fielder of all time- if you're a Braves fan. Mays UZR would probably be better if he told the other OF's around him to play a little wider in the outfielder so that he could cover more ground.Quote:
Originally Posted by smootness
The fact that you think Mays' UZR could be lower because other OFs were too close to him pretty much says it all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Todd4State
I gave you four links of mainstream sources who think Andruw is at the very least one of the top handful of CFs ever defensively.
And Andruw wasn't lazy. That is a reputation that he got because he acted nonchalant on routine plays and smiled a lot. You don't play the way he played if you're lazy. And if you do - if Andruw Jones really was lazy - he was still the greatest defensive OFer of all time. So you sure do think an awful lot of his natural ability.
500 feet...good gosh, man. How big do you think the Polo Grounds was?
This. It doesn't mean they don't care or haven't played hard but last night they didn't compete like Cann expects them to compete. What Cann did last night used to be common years ago. He challenged them they didn't respond last night so with his limited roster he tried to find some players who would compete. If these players have the heart that they've shown all year then they will be embarrassed by their performance last night and will take responsibility and get their crap wired tight again. Personally I love Canns old school approach.Quote:
Originally Posted by Todd4State
I think he has done a good job this season, questioned his decision to expose our Friday night ace and closer on an already short staff. And no coach should ever throw players under the bus, nor should players do that to the coach, should be handled in house amongst coaches and staff if there is an issue, just like the Gridley situation. I haven't attacked you personally and you don't anything about me or my background or what I know or don't know about the game of baseball or any other sport for that matter,. But I know what I see and I saw a coach waive the white flag last night in the 7th inning in a 3 run game.I'm not trying to please anyone, don't need to, just don't like conceding a game, if that's not what we did then I expect to see all those pitchers hitting tomorrow night, if they can hit and help us win games then great let's play them. All I am saying is let's play to win every game that's the ultimate goal of every collegiate sport. And truthfully would you rather have a healthy pilkington or gordon, if we had to choose, fortunately we don't have to.Quote:
Originally Posted by Todd4State
Oh, OK excuse me I looked it up and the Polo Grounds were only 483 feet where Mays caught that ball instead of the 500. THAT is why that was such a great play. Learn your baseball history.Quote:
Originally Posted by smootness
My point about Mays having the OF closer to them was because HE positioned them there where he made it easier on the team. That's actual baseball genius on his part. He could have made himself look better by spreading them out but he didn't do that. And another reason why defensive stats are somewhat unreliable.
He didn't have that reputation because he "smiled a lot". It's because he was out of shape most of his career and if Bobby Cox is pulling you out of a game for loafing, I'm going to side with Cox. And yes, I do think an awful lot of his natural ability. But because you have a lot of great natural ability it doesn't make you the greatest of all time.
Exactly. I think we have some fans that have trouble separating rec league ball with SEC baseball. Again- to quote my Dad- the further you go in baseball the more serious it gets. Our guys are one step away from pro baseball. And part of Cann's job is to teach them and get them ready for that. And I bet you all of our players to a man would agree with Cann and probably are embarrassed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Commercecomet24