We just have to accept fact in recruiting

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Originally Posted by Bubb Rubb

This is stupid.

Attitude is part of the development of a QB. Urban won a championship with Jones but it wasn't because of him. He was a third string QB if you recall. The offense was super simplified and run heavy and they relied on a stout defense.

Dak came in as a very talented and undervalued recruit with a strong work ethic, but Dak wasn't DAK until after a couple of years in the system.

You keep moving the goalposts with your arguments.

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No I don't. The internal drive and attitude was always there ... as documented in the multitudes of spotlight videos done by the NFL this season. As explained by his HC in High School, etc.

Not saying Dan didn't do a lot or doesn't develop QBs well. But I'm not putting him on a pedestal as some do solely on that. I'm not calling him a great head coach yet either.

Some want to give him ALL the credit 100% of the time and when anything goes wrong with the football team its always all the subordinates mistakes or we're MSU and can't compete so Dan is working miracles.

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Originally Posted by smootness

No. Cardale Jones can't play QB in the NFL because he isn't good at being a QB. He has a big arm and size and can move decently well for his size. That's literally it. If you think those things and 'attitude' are the only things you need to be an NFL QB...

He has no idea what he's doing, he can't read defenses, and his accuracy sucks. But other than that, he's got everything it takes**

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Now this might be true ... I haven't watched him in the pros but he might could read defenses better if he had the work ethic also. He seemed to do pretty decent in the CFP playoffs 2 years ago (1 of which was Bama) ... but nobody had much film on him either going into that.

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Originally Posted by dawgday166

No I don't. The internal drive and attitude was always there ... as documented in the multitudes of spotlight videos done by the NFL this season. As explained by his HC in High School, etc.

Not saying Dan didn't do a lot or doesn't develop QBs well. But I'm not putting him on a pedestal as some do solely on that. I'm not calling him a great head coach yet either.

Some want to give him ALL the credit 100% of the time and when anything goes wrong with the football team its always all the subordinates mistakes or we're MSU and can't compete so Dan is working miracles.

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I didn't call Dan a great head coach. He has his flaws. I said he is a great offensive coach because he is. He's won a lot of big games as an offensive coordinator. He's developed great QBs. You decided to say that was because of Urban Meyer and not him. You discredit is development of QBs (Dak was Dak, the others were Meyer, etc.). As for your last sentence, that's a massive over-generalization that you are making to support your argument. A lot of folks on this and other boards call Dan out harshly. I've done it too at times. I think you see what you want to see and not what's the truth, because you have an agenda.

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Originally Posted by dawgday166

He's gone 2-4 every year except '14. 7 years of no more than 2 wins in SEC W.

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And that 2-4 yearly record has included SEC East patsy Kentucky.

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Originally Posted by Bubb Rubb

I didn't call Dan a great head coach. He has his flaws. I said he is a great offensive coach because he is. He's won a lot of big games as an offensive coordinator. He's developed great QBs. You decided to say that was because of Urban Meyer and not him. You discredit is development of QBs (Dak was Dak, the others were Meyer, etc.). As for your last sentence, that's a massive over-generalization that you are making to support your argument. A lot of folks on this and other boards call Dan out harshly. I've done it too at times. I think you see what you want to see and not what's the truth, because you have an agenda.

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Well ... Urban has done that in several places ... before and after he hired Dan. Does he get any credit? So Dan gets all the credit when he was working for Urban. My agenda is to improve the 6-23 mark (or something like that) against Bama, LSU, AU, and TAM. And not lose the USA, a mediocre to poor BYU team, etc.

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Originally Posted by RougeDawg

And that 2-4 yearly record has included SEC East patsy Kentucky.

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*yawn* Another negative post from Roguedawg.

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Originally Posted by RougeDawg

And that 2-4 yearly record has included SEC East patsy Kentucky.

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2 - 4 is just against the west. With the luck of the draw (having played weak SEC E foes the last several years) we have usually been 4-4 in SEC.

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Originally Posted by dawgday166

Well ... Urban has done that in several places ... before and after he hired Dan. Does he get any credit? So Dan gets all the credit when he was working for Urban. My agenda is to improve the 6-23 mark (or something like that) against Bama, LSU, AU, and TAM. And not lose the USA, a mediocre to poor BYU team, etc.

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Does Dan get any credit?

I guess losing to Louisiana Tech really tarnished Nick Saban's resume, too.

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Originally Posted by Bubb Rubb

Does Dan get any credit?

I guess losing to Louisiana Tech really tarnished Nick Saban's resume, too.

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ULM....

I like that we bring in kids that aren't afraid of hard work. No room for the Kimchee, Big Softy, daddy drama Shea, etc... in a good program. It's going to take years and years to recover from being a consistent cellar dweller in the SEC. That's the bottom line. We don't have the budget to recruit with Florida, LSU, or Bama and we don't cheat like Ole Miss and Auburn. It is what it is. But there's no reason we can be a Wisconsin, TCU, Washington, Nebraska, etc.. and compete on the national stage. CDM did it with Dak and he'll have another chance with KT. We're not Bama. We'll never be Bama. But we can make a push once every few years and be a consistent bowl team.

People in the athletic department have said it for many years now, Va Tech is the model we're looking for. Consistently respectable, great atmosphere, hard working program, and we occasionally get a shot to make a push for a championship. Mullen's got us there already. We just have to finish one of our pushes to get over that hump.

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Originally Posted by Political Hack

I like that we bring in kids that aren't afraid of hard work. No room for the Kimchee, Big Softy, daddy drama Shea, etc... in a good program. It's going to take years and years to recover from being a consistent cellar dweller in the SEC. That's the bottom line. We don't have the budget to recruit with Florida, LSU, or Bama and we don't cheat like Ole Miss and Auburn. It is what it is. But there's no reason we can be a Wisconsin, TCU, Washington, Nebraska, etc.. and compete on the national stage. CDM did it with Dak and he'll have another chance with KT. We're not Bama. We'll never be Bama. But we can make a push once every few years and be a consistent bowl team.

People in the athletic department have said it for many years now, Va Tech is the model we're looking for. Consistently respectable, great atmosphere, hard working program, and we occasionally get a shot to make a push for a championship. Mullen's got us there already. We just have to finish one of our pushes to get over that hump.

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Rational post is rational.

I bet the rest of our athletic programs wish that they could use that excuse. I guess they will all just continue to recruit lights and and compete for championships instead.

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Originally Posted by Jarius

I bet the rest of our athletic programs wish that they could use that excuse. I guess they will all just continue to recruit lights and and compete for championships instead.

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Excellente' post. We don't get Kys talent in basketball and never willl but ... we showed up with a little less talent and smacked them in the mouth the other night.

Ooohhh ... but football's different ****

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Originally Posted by Jarius

I bet the rest of our athletic programs wish that they could use that excuse. I guess they will all just continue to recruit lights and and compete for championships instead.

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People keep trying to equate our baseball and basketball programs with football, and they're not the same.

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Originally Posted by smootness

People keep trying to equate our baseball and basketball programs with football, and they're not the same.

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I'm not just comparing them. I'm comparing our entire athletic department. Football is the only one where "the city of Starkville" is an issue. Facilities are an issue. Budget is an issue. None of the other sports have this issue. At some point you just have to look at Dan Mullen and say he is what he is. It's not our budget's fault that we have an epic recruiting meltdown on a yearly basis. It's Mullen's fault. We can and should recruit better in football than we do. I don't think anyone is asking for us to stock pile 5 stars like Alabama either. I'm also not advocating to get rid of Mullen. It's just an obvious observation that some people want to stick their head in the sand about.

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Originally Posted by dawgday166

If Urban was in Starkville he'd be finishing 2nd or 3rd at the worst every year in the west. That's a great coach. Finishing 4 - 6 against the mediocre coaching in the west ain't a great coach. He has done nothing as a head coach to be considered great. Urban, Saban, Harbaugh ... they've gone to schools that historically don't win a lot and turned them into winners and conference champs. That's great.

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Yeah! Why can't Mississippi State have one of the 3 best coaches in college football?

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Originally Posted by I seen it dawg

Sorry but Mullen is a great QB coach and keeper of a program. Keeps discipline in line and guys graduating. Everything else he's just meh. Just a guy.

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He's a little bit more than that. If you want to compare him to Saban, Meyer, Harbough, etc., yes, he's just meh. But he's still at the top of the rest of the coaching ranks. Yes, he's not very good at recruiting, but overall, he's only meh if you compare him to the top four or five coaches in the country.

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Originally Posted by smootness

People keep trying to equate our baseball and basketball programs with football, and they're not the same.

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That's also a good point.

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Originally Posted by MedDawg

Yeah! Why can't Mississippi State have one of the 3 best coaches in college football?

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Oh we will as soon as we hire HC Kyle Whittingham and C34 as OL coach. We will never lose to Bama or LSU and we will always have top 10 recruiting classes then!!

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Originally Posted by Jarius

I'm not just comparing them. I'm comparing our entire athletic department. Football is the only one where "the city of Starkville" is an issue. Facilities are an issue. Budget is an issue. None of the other sports have this issue. At some point you just have to look at Dan Mullen and say he is what he is. It's not our budget's fault that we have an epic recruiting meltdown on a yearly basis. It's Mullen's fault. We can and should recruit better in football than we do. I don't think anyone is asking for us to stock pile 5 stars like Alabama either. I'm also not advocating to get rid of Mullen. It's just an obvious observation that some people want to stick their head in the sand about.

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We don't have an epic recruiting meltdown on a yearly basis. That is fan-driven. No, we don't recruit great in football. That's different from 'epic meltdown'.

And I don't think it has all that much to do with Starkville, and I don't think really anybody is saying that. It primarily has to do with our program history, our resource disadvantage in the SEC, our track record in producing consistent NFL talent, and our recruiting style.

The resource disadvantage is not as important in other sports because it doesn't exist to the same degree in other sports. Football is far and away the largest budget, and that is where the disparity is greatest.

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Originally Posted by smootness

We don't have an epic recruiting meltdown on a yearly basis. That is fan-driven. No, we don't recruit great in football. That's different from 'epic meltdown'.

And I don't think it has all that much to do with Starkville, and I don't think really anybody is saying that. It primarily has to do with our program history, our resource disadvantage in the SEC, our track record in producing consistent NFL talent, and our recruiting style.

The resource disadvantage is not as important in other sports because it doesn't exist to the same degree in other sports. Football is far and away the largest budget, and that is where the disparity is greatest.

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2009 and 2015 are the only 2 years in the Mullen era where we haven't had this sort of thing happen. It's not fan driven. It's Dan Mullen driven. It's not resource driven. It's Dan Mullen driven. If he would simply hang on to the recruits that he has flip on him every year he would be ranked where MSU should expect to be ranked on a yearly basis. It's not like he has to go out and expand his recruiting footprint to California. He just needs to not shit the bed in January with guys that he already has committed to his program. He's a really good developer and we could do way worse. To try and make excuses for him when every other sport on campus recruits just fine is just making excuses. He should be getting better at recruiting since he is, you know, building the program and changing that perception but he isn't. He's not taking the on the field results and improving the recruiting with those results. If he continues to win 6-8 games a year I'm ok with that. I'm just not going to make an excuse for him and act like he is something that he isn't, or act like other coaches couldn't come here and recruit way better than Mullen has recruited.

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Originally Posted by smootness

We don't have an epic recruiting meltdown on a yearly basis. That is fan-driven. No, we don't recruit great in football. That's different from 'epic meltdown'.

And I don't think it has all that much to do with Starkville, and I don't think really anybody is saying that. It primarily has to do with our program history, our resource disadvantage in the SEC, our track record in producing consistent NFL talent, and our recruiting style.

The resource disadvantage is not as important in other sports because it doesn't exist to the same degree in other sports. Football is far and away the largest budget, and that is where the disparity is greatest.

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Our football history is actually fairly comparable to our basketball history. We're not a powerhouse historically in basketball but yet Howland has loaded up on four stars and he even won a battle recently for Garrison Brooks. I'm pretty sure Dan wouldn't have even tried to get Brooks if the roles were reveresed. The guys we're landing now in basketball were in diapers when we went to the Final Four.

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Originally Posted by Jarius

2009 and 2015 are the only 2 years in the Mullen era where we haven't had this sort of thing happen. It's not fan driven. It's Dan Mullen driven. It's not resource driven. It's Dan Mullen driven. If he would simply hang on to the recruits that he has flip on him every year he would be ranked where MSU should expect to be ranked on a yearly basis. It's not like he has to go out and expand his recruiting footprint to California. He just needs to not shit the bed in January with guys that he already has committed to his program. He's a really good developer and we could do way worse. To try and make excuses for him when every other sport on campus recruits just fine is just making excuses. He should be getting better at recruiting since he is, you know, building the program and changing that perception but he isn't. He's not taking the on the field results and improving the recruiting with those results. If he continues to win 6-8 games a year I'm ok with that. I'm just not going to make an excuse for him and act like he is something that he isn't, or act like other coaches couldn't come here and recruit way better than Mullen has recruited.

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It's nice to see someone on this board that isn't a complete sheep.

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Originally Posted by Todd4State

It's nice to see someone on this board that isn't a complete sheep.

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https://a.disquscdn.com/get?url=http...KM72-kkVZoi14g

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Originally Posted by Random Poster

Absolutely. And he has more resources than any State coach has ever had.

Unfortunately- we can't compare Mullen to Charlie Shira- we have to compare him to Saban, Yaw Yaw, Gus Bus, Sumlin, Bert, and Freezus.

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You could make an argument, based on Mullen's body of work, that he is better than all of those coaches except Saban. Orgeron is a bit of a mystery due to small recent sample size, but if you include his OM tenure there is no way you can put him over Mullen. The problem then comes if / when A&M, Auburn, and Arkansas actually make legitimate hires to replace their current guys, who could realistically all be gone within the next year or two.

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Originally Posted by HancockCountyDog

Come on, people are bitching after a recruit drops us for a different school. Should we be happy? Are we allowed to be upset that our best HS DL commit, (since April) from a school coached by a bulldog, and whom we hired their former coach, has now two weeks before signing day left our recruiting class.

The reason people are brining up the results, is because the inability to recruit high caliber athletes directly impacts the product on the field and is how we end up losing to South Alabama at freaking home.

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What do you believe that we needed to do to keep Odom that has not been done?
Do you not think Dan Mullen understands that we need better players at all positions and is trying to get those players in a legal manner?

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Originally Posted by Jarius

2009 and 2015 are the only 2 years in the Mullen era where we haven't had this sort of thing happen. It's not fan driven. It's Dan Mullen driven. It's not resource driven. It's Dan Mullen driven. If he would simply hang on to the recruits that he has flip on him every year he would be ranked where MSU should expect to be ranked on a yearly basis. It's not like he has to go out and expand his recruiting footprint to California. He just needs to not shit the bed in January with guys that he already has committed to his program. He's a really good developer and we could do way worse. To try and make excuses for him when every other sport on campus recruits just fine is just making excuses. He should be getting better at recruiting since he is, you know, building the program and changing that perception but he isn't. He's not taking the on the field results and improving the recruiting with those results. If he continues to win 6-8 games a year I'm ok with that. I'm just not going to make an excuse for him and act like he is something that he isn't, or act like other coaches couldn't come here and recruit way better than Mullen has recruited.

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What do, you, believe he needs to do in order to hang on to those who are, "committed," whatever that means?

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Originally Posted by Todd4State

Our football history is actually fairly comparable to our basketball history. We're not a powerhouse historically in basketball but yet Howland has loaded up on four stars and he even won a battle recently for Garrison Brooks. I'm pretty sure Dan wouldn't have even tried to get Brooks if the roles were reveresed. The guys we're landing now in basketball were in diapers when we went to the Final Four.

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No its not, not even close. Come on man we have 6 SEC titles in basketball.

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Originally Posted by HSVDawg

You could make an argument, based on Mullen's body of work, that he is better than all of those coaches except Saban. Orgeron is a bit of a mystery due to small recent sample size, but if you include his OM tenure there is no way you can put him over Mullen. The problem then comes if / when A&M, Auburn, and Arkansas actually make legitimate hires to replace their current guys, who could realistically all be gone within the next year or two.

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There's no way in Hell you can say Mullen is better than Malzahn. Thats lunacy.

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Originally Posted by Percho

What do, you, believe he needs to do in order to hang on to those who are, "committed," whatever that means?

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He needs to keep Grantham as our one coach that doesn't have to be an ace recruiter and everyone else he has on staff needs to be as passionate about recruiting as Terrell Buckley. That won't get us to an Alabama level but at least we won't hear our flips saying someone else was "giving them more love". If I read that one more time I may vomit.

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Originally Posted by Random Poster

There's no way in Hell you can say Mullen is better than Malzahn. Thats lunacy.

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When you look at overall body of work compared to the resources available, you certainly could. Especially if you see Auburn's 2013 season for what it was....where they won 4 games with absolute million to one shot circus plays or last second drives. Throw that season out and you are left with a record that is not as good as Mullen's overall or SEC record. Anyway, it is definitely arguable, albeit certainly not definitive. Just about any Auburn fan you talk to in Alabama would trade Malzahn for Mullen in a second.

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Originally Posted by HSVDawg

When you look at overall body of work compared to the resources available, you certainly could. Especially if you see Auburn's 2013 season for what it was....where they won 4 games with absolute million to one shot circus plays or last second drives. Throw that season out and you are left with a record that is not as good as Mullen's overall or SEC record. Anyway, it is definitely arguable, albeit certainly not definitive. Just about any Auburn fan you talk to in Alabama would trade Malzahn for Mullen in a second.

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Malzahn has an SEC title and played for the NC...finished 2nd in the country
Malzahn earned a Sugar Bowl berth after rebuilding and filling the holes left by Chiz- who fell on his face once Malzahn left him. Yet Mullen's old boss keeps on rolling

And after earning that Sugar Bowl berth- in the same article that lists us as a team on the rise for 2017- it also lists Auburn. Auburn will be one of the 3 best teams in the SEC next year. Auburn fans are insane because they have to deal with Bama. Malzahn isnt going anywhere

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Originally Posted by Jarius

He needs to keep Grantham as our one coach that doesn't have to be an ace recruiter and everyone else he has on staff needs to be as passionate about recruiting as Terrell Buckley. That won't get us to an Alabama level but at least we won't hear our flips saying someone else was "giving them more love". If I read that one more time I may vomit.

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So he needs to fire everybody but Grantham & Buckley so we can average winning 1-2 more games a year? It's way more likely we will lose 1-2 more games and probably Dan Mullen by doing that than it is we will win 1-2 more games a year. We are never beating Saban and the 1 RAT team a year. 10 wins is our regular season ceiling 99 years outta 100. Doesn't matter what coach you bring in if you fire Mullen either. That ceiling won't ever get higher than that till Saban is gone. The Saban frustration is amazing. There needs to be a 30 for 30 just on it alone. Saban's Suicides.

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Originally Posted by Dawg61

So he needs to fire everybody but Grantham & Buckley so we can average winning 1-2 more games a year? It's way more likely we will lose 1-2 more games and probably Dan Mullen by doing that than it is we will win 1-2 more games a year. We are never beating Saban and the 1 RAT team a year. 10 wins is our regular season ceiling 99 years outta 100. Doesn't matter what coach you bring in if you fire Mullen either. That ceiling won't ever get higher than that till Saban is gone. The Saban frustration is amazing. There needs to be a 30 for 30 just on it alone. Saban's Suicides.

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I won't argue this much except in this regard. Every year there a 4 low hanging teams we should go 3-1 against at a minimum IMO. We NEVER go anything but 2-2 against those teams except in 2014. And that year, we beat all but OM and they were the walking wounded when we played them. Should've been 5-1 agains the West.

We tend to beat the 2 really bad teams when we play them (although this year we beat what at the time what was a decent A&M team, just coming off a butt whupping by Bama tho).

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Originally Posted by Random Poster

Malzahn has an SEC title and played for the NC...finished 2nd in the country
Malzahn earned a Sugar Bowl berth after rebuilding and filling the holes left by Chiz- who fell on his face once Malzahn left him. Yet Mullen's old boss keeps on rolling

And after earning that Sugar Bowl berth- in the same article that lists us as a team on the rise for 2017- it also lists Auburn. Auburn will be one of the 3 best teams in the SEC next year. Auburn fans are insane because they have to deal with Bama. Malzahn isnt going anywhere

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And everyone - including lists like these-thought that Malzahn had an all world team with a Heisman Candidate QB in 2015, and a #6 preseason ranking. All that hype and talent and he was 7-6 and wound up with Sean White doing a Mike Hennig impersonation.

Malzahn caught lightening in a bottle with Cam. Then lucked into a lot of wins in '13. They will be no better in '17 than in '16.

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Originally Posted by Random Poster

Malzahn has an SEC title and played for the NC...finished 2nd in the country
Malzahn earned a Sugar Bowl berth after rebuilding and filling the holes left by Chiz- who fell on his face once Malzahn left him. Yet Mullen's old boss keeps on rolling

And after earning that Sugar Bowl berth- in the same article that lists us as a team on the rise for 2017- it also lists Auburn. Auburn will be one of the 3 best teams in the SEC next year. Auburn fans are insane because they have to deal with Bama. Malzahn isnt going anywhere

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Gene Chizik actually won a natty (1st in the country) and he was a terrible coach. Mark Helfrich duplicated Malzahn's accomplishment, also a terrible head coach. Anyone can have a one year wonder type season where everything goes right. From a sustainablity standpoint, Malzahn has been trending down. Nobody gives a damn about him making the Sugar Bowl because it is a diluted accomplishment compared to what it used to be when you can get there at 8-4 (how many times has Mullen been 8-4 or better?).

Auburn fans aren't all crazy. They are pissed because they have averaged less than 8 wins per season over the last 3 years, which is equivalent to averaging 5-6 wins per year at MSU.

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Originally Posted by HSVDawg

Gene Chizik actually won a natty (1st in the country) and he was a terrible coach. Mark Helfrich duplicated Malzahn's accomplishment, also a terrible head coach. Anyone can have a one year wonder type season where everything goes right. From a sustainablity standpoint, Malzahn has been trending down. Nobody gives a damn about him making the Sugar Bowl because it is a diluted accomplishment compared to what it used to be when you can get there at 8-4 (how many times has Mullen been 8-4 or better?).

Auburn fans aren't all crazy. They are pissed because they have averaged less than 8 wins per season over the last 3 years, which is equivalent to averaging 5-6 wins per year at MSU.

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Precisely ... hence 2014 and #1 for 5 weeks.

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Originally Posted by dawgday166

I won't argue this much except in this regard. Every year there a 4 low hanging teams we should go 3-1 against at a minimum IMO. We NEVER go anything but 2-2 against those teams except in 2014. And that year, we beat all but OM and they were the walking wounded when we played them. Should've been 5-1 agains the West.

We tend to beat the 2 really bad teams when we play them (although this year we beat what at the time what was a decent A&M team, just coming off a butt whupping by Bama tho).

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Yup I won't argue that Dan is good for 1-2 turds a year and that doesn't include the annual Saban ass-whipping and the RAT ass-whipping. That puts us at 8-4. He averages 7.6 wins a year for us right now. Some years we will get to 9-10 wins. Some years we will only win 5-6 games. Every years we will get our ass handed to us by Saban & RAT. When's baseball season start again?

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Originally Posted by dawgday166

Precisely ... hence 2014 and #1 for 5 weeks.

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Somewhat of a bad example. We mostly beat the hell out of everyone on our schedule except Bama / OM. We were a pretty good team. We weren't bouncing 50 yard passes off of CB's hands for TD passes or combining a 100 yard missed field goal return for a TD with multiple missed field goals by our opponent in order to eek out victories and backdoor our way into the national title game. And we didn't have that kind of luck against our two big rivals like Auburn had against theirs. 2014 MSU would likely beat 2013 Auburn by multiple TD's.

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Originally Posted by HSVDawg

Somewhat of a bad example. We mostly beat the hell out of everyone on our schedule except Bama / OM. We were a pretty good team. We weren't bouncing 50 yard passes off of CB's hands for TD passes or combining a 100 yard missed field goal return for a TD with multiple missed field goals by our opponent in order to eek out victories and backdoor our way into the national title game. And we didn't have that kind of luck against our two big rivals like Auburn had against theirs. 2014 MSU would likely beat 2013 Auburn by multiple TD's.

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Agree with this. But also saying we caught everyone off guard, especially LSU and except maybe AU. The LSU team that played Bama later in the year would have been a tougher out than when we played them.

I'm also saying that we got pretty lucky that Dak, BMac, and Preston Smith all grew into the players they did grow into. BMac and Preston I believe (or at least 1 of them) are the reasons we never have 2* players on our commit lists anymore, cause the recruiting rankings missed "so badly" on those 2. So now if they commit to us they're automatically 3* (according to Rosebowl from back in 2014).

ETA: And I neglected to mention JRob, Day, & Beckwith and the players they became too.