Montana is now the #2 GOAT

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Originally Posted by Todd4State

What years are those from? Walsh wanted to start Young and none of the coaches wanted to do it in 1988. In fact, the 49ers were 6-5 at one point and things came to a head and they decided to start Montana again exclusively- 49ers won the Super Bowl and went undefeated. In 1989 they started Young a few times usually against lesser teams to try to keep Montana healthy- easier competition equals better numbers. And then in 1994 Montana and Young went head to head with Montana having a team with much lesser talent and beat the crap out of the 49ers. Having lesser talent with the Chiefs- JJ Birden and I think the other guy was Willie Davis couldn't possibly have contributed to lesser numbers at all could it?

The only reason Young got the job was because Montana got hurt and Young was younger at the time and they decided that the better move in the long run at that point was to trade Joe.

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'94 qb rating for each...
Montana = 83.6
Young = 112.8 and completed 70.3% of passes (both numbers are better than any year of Montana)

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Originally Posted by msstate7

'94 qb rating for each...
Montana = 83.6
Young = 112.8 and completed 70.3% of passes (both numbers are better than any year of Montana)

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And over half of them were to Jerry Rice. John Taylor hardly saw the ball when Young played. If Rice ain't open, Steve be running.

ETA: He did throw it some to Ricky Watters on swing passes out of the backfield too.

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Originally Posted by Todd4State

Name his WR's, TE's and RB's from his first two Super Bowls. Hint- Jerry Rice didn't play on either one. The 49ers did start to change the NFL in regards to throwing the ball more. I'm sure that average is upped some because if they were behind they would start to throw it more- I remember times where they would throw it as high as 50 times at least- but I think if you asked Walsh at that time, his ideal would be throwing it about 25-30 times a game. John Taylor, Brent Jones, Roger Craig, Tom Rathman- none of them are in the HOF. Craig might get there one day. None of their o-linemen have a legit shot. Dwight Clark wouldn't be known at all if it wasn't for Montana- and I think you could say that for a lot of their other players. In fact, I think the fact that so many people think that they were loaded with talent and looked so good as is a testament to Montana making them look good at times.

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Ha, I must have missed where Deion Branch, Troy Brown, and Antowain Smith were HOFers. And you are right about Montana also making some no names look good. There are a lot of similarities between the two of them. But where they differ is Brady getting more rings and playing in more Super Bowls in general. And he did that by staying on top of his game and in his prime for longer than anyone else. Right or wrong, longevity plays a big part in separating out the all time greats. Brady just threw for 450+ yards in leading his team back from a 25 point deficit in the Super Bowl....as a 39 year old. Let that sink in for a second.

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Originally Posted by msstate7

Giants and pats faced 2 times in super bowl and Eli won both. It was just a point that super bowl results aren't the only determinate in qb greatness. In no way was I saying Eli is even in the same universe as Brady

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Ironically that's what people are trying to argue by saying Brady is better than Montana since he has five to Montana's four. But the thing about Montana is he never lost one- Brady had a chance to beat the Giants twice and choked twice. Montana NEVER threw an interception in Super Bowl play. Brady threw a pick six tonight. Montana probably beats the Giants if the roles are reversed and he probably doesn't throw a pick six. Also Montana was WAY more mobile at 40 than Brady on his prime. Brady has played longer and has not missed as much time due to injury or suspension as Brady has- and assuming Brady comes back that will be essentially at least three- four more years than Montana.

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Originally Posted by dawgday166

And over half of them were to Jerry Rice. John Taylor hardly saw the ball when Young played. If Rice ain't open, Steve be running.

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Watters, Taylor, and Brent jones all over 500 receiving

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Originally Posted by msstate7

Watters, Taylor, and Brent jones all over 500 receiving

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From Young? Or total? And receiving what? Yards?

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Originally Posted by Todd4State

Ironically that's what people are trying to argue by saying Brady is better than Montana since he has five to Montana's four. But the thing about Montana is he never lost one- Brady had a chance to beat the Giants twice and choked twice. Montana NEVER threw an interception in Super Bowl play. Brady threw a pick six tonight. Montana probably beats the Giants if the roles are reversed and he probably doesn't throw a pick six. Also Montana was WAY more mobile at 40 than Brady on his prime. Brady has played longer and has not missed as much time due to injury or suspension as Brady has- and assuming Brady comes back that will be essentially at least three- four more years than Montana.

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Montana didn't play at 40

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Originally Posted by msstate7

'94 qb rating for each...
Montana = 83.6
Young = 112.8 and completed 70.3% of passes (both numbers are better than any year of Montana)

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OK- so you took the year that Young had Rice and Taylor and Brent Jones led NFL TE's in TD's and the same year that Montana had Birden and Willie Davis and was 40. And he STILL beat Young head to head that year. If you switch Montana and give him that team the 49ers had in 1994 he would have likely put up the same numbers or comparable as Young.

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Originally Posted by dawgday166

From Young?

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Yes in '94

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Originally Posted by Todd4State

OK- so you took the year that Young had Rice and Taylor and Brent Jones led NFL TE's in TD's and the same year that Montana had Birden and Willie Davis and was 40. And he STILL beat Young head to head that year. If you switch Montana and give him that team the 49ers had in 1994 he would have likely put up the same numbers or comparable as Young.

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You brought up '94. You insinuated since Montana won head-to-head vs young that Montana was better in '94.

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Originally Posted by msstate7

Montana didn't play at 40

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Excuse me- 38. He was still more mobile than Brady at 40 even though he was sitting on a couch somewhere.

And what's Brady right now- 39?

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Originally Posted by Todd4State

Excuse me- 38. He was still more mobile than Brady at 40 even though he was sitting on a couch somewhere.

And what's Brady right now- 39?

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Yep. Brady also put up a 112.2 qbr... best of his career... at 39

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Originally Posted by msstate7

You brought up '94. You insinuated since Montana won head-to-head vs young that Montana was better in '94.

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I did. And like I said if you gave them the same teams Montana would have done just as well. To be honest- 1994 was probably the time where they were about the same but that's only because of age slowing down Montana. But to me if an older QB can perform just as well as a younger QB in his prime, wouldn't you say that the older one was better?

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Originally Posted by Todd4State

But the thing about Montana is he never lost one- Brady had a chance to beat the Giants twice and choked twice.

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So you are penalizing Brady for leading his teams to more Super Bowls than Montana did? Because if you go to almost twice as many super bowls as another player, the chances are good you are going to have a few more losses in the big game. Saying Montana is better all time because he never lost a Super Bowl is like saying Urban Meyer is a better all time coach than Saban because he never lost a national championship game. Just an irrational argument.

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Originally Posted by msstate7

Yes in '94

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Well .. maybe he spread it around a little 1 year haha. I won't deny I'm biased against Steve Young. But I'll guarantee you this ... he couldn't have taken KC to the AFC Championship title game like Montana did. Name Joe's offensive weepons that year.

I'm not gonna argue the Brady vs. Montana. I'd still take Joe but think if they played 10 times against each other it would probably be 5 - 5 or maybe 6 - 4 one way or the other.

But really when looking at an entire career + playoffs ... there is no doubt Brady is better. At the beginning of the GOAT thread I said it wasn't over yet. I wasn't counting Brady out.

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Originally Posted by Todd4State

I did. And like I said if you gave them the same teams Montana would have done just as well. To be honest- 1994 was probably the time where they were about the same but that's only because of age slowing down Montana. But to me if an older QB can perform just as well as a younger QB in his prime, wouldn't you say that the older one was better?

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http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/qb1994

That site came up with a formula to compare the 2 in '94

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Originally Posted by basedog

Dude,Motana was great, know one Is disagreeing with that fact. But Brady is the best ever, winning 5 Super Bowls and staying healthy for the most part is remarkable. He ain't done either, I ain't a Pats fan either.

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I know no one is arguing that. But I'm saying you can't compare the eras. Does Brady stay healthy like he has in the NFL of the 1980's? We'll never know but it's less likely. Montana would have been more likely to stay healthy in today's era as well. Again- we'll never know but it's certainly more likely that he would stay healthy.

What is undisputable is Montana never lost a Super Bowl in multiple tries and he never threw an interception in one either. He also beat Marino and Elway two of the best head to head in two of those and in a third he led one of the greatest comebacks in Super Bowl history.

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Originally Posted by msstate7

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/qb1994

That site came up with a formula to compare the 2 in '94

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Get back to me when they come up with a stat that shows what they would do with the same players Will James.

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Originally Posted by dawgday166

Well .. maybe he spread it around a little 1 year haha. I won't deny I'm biased against Steve Young. But I'll guarantee you this ... he couldn't have taken KC to the AFC Championship title game like Montana did. Name Joe's offensive weepons that year.

I'm not gonna argue the Brady vs. Montana. I'd still take Joe but think if they played 10 times against each other it would probably be 5 - 5 or maybe 6 - 4 one way or the other.

But really when looking at an entire career + playoffs ... there is no doubt Brady is better. At the beginning of the GOAT thread I said it wasn't over yet. I wasn't counting Brady out.

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Young is much better than you give him credit for. Among qb ratings all time, he's 5th with the 4 above him being present day guys. Young's qbr is better than brees, Big Ben, Peyton, rivers, and yes, Montana (#13 all time)

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Originally Posted by HSVDawg

So you are penalizing Brady for leading his teams to more Super Bowls than Montana did? Because if you go to almost twice as many super bowls as another player, the chances are good you are going to have a few more losses in the big game. Saying Montana is better all time because he never lost a Super Bowl is like saying Urban Meyer is a better all time coach than Saban because he never lost a national championship game. Just an irrational argument.

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No- I'm penalizing him for losing more Super Bowls and not performing as well in Super Bowls. 4 INT's and a QB rating of 95.3 vs. No losses, 0 INT's and a rating of 127.8. I'm also saying that this era is more QB friendly for Brady in terms of passing and player safety which is what in turn leads to those extra chances.

Meyer and Saban are coaching in the same era and Montana and Brady played in different eras- that's the difference.