Not trying beat a dad horse but even Richard Cross agrees with me...

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Originally Posted by NewTweederEndzoneDance

I think most everyone is missing the point simply because the original post mentioned Richard Cross. The point Bogey is trying to make is all about perception. It has nothing to do with the fact that Rice is probably better than Pitt was last year or GT is this year. The point is that beating either of those schools, which have more than 10 fans (seriously, did ya'll see that game last weekend? I think they had half of Rice's stadium tarped off, and it was for a championship), is always considered to be a better win than beating a team like Rice. Conversely, losing to Rice would be much much more damaging than losing to GT or Pitt, despite Rice probably having the better team.

As much as this board bitches about the Ole Miss spin, you'd think that we'd have learned by now that perception = reality a lot of the time. That's the same argument gravedigger is having about the scheduling - PERCEPTION.

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No one is missing the point becuase of Richard Cross. Bogey and you are missing the point because the way that you build perception is to continue to win- not by playing Indiana.

I'll tell you what the perception is going to be right now once we play Rice- "Damn- MSU sold that place out! It's all Maroon. They must have good fans. Their team is pretty good too- they've been to four bowls in a row." And then after we skulldrag the nerds from Rice, our fans are going to be wooly and excited for next season. Watch.

The only people that will be down on it are going to be Ole Miss people.

You talk about perception being reailty- let me ask you this- those teams that Coach mentioned below- even notice how NO ONE calls them out on their schedule? Duke and Baylor get TONS of props from ESPN. Why would we be any different? The experts would look even more dumb than usual if they try to call out our schedule when we have to play Bama, LSU, and Auburn every single year. And that's why they don't call us out. That's reality.

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Originally Posted by NewTweederEndzoneDance

Winnable does not mean auto-win. Remember the whole point is about exposure. If we have a home and home with NC State and we go over there and show out, that helps us tremendously, both with perception of our program from folks over there and potential recruits who may suddenly see MSU as a place they could go. We do absolutely nothing to help ourselves by scheduling Troy, Memphis, South Alabama and Jacksonville State each year, other than potentially increasing out bowl destination (which is the other point - better bowl = better exposure, even if most people nationally don't care about the game)

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If we play NC State, recruits from North Carolina are not going to suddenly flock to MSU. It doesn't work that way. We are in the SEC. We get about as good exposure as we can possibly get just from that fact alone. And again, as far as recuiting- we help oursleves out MUCH more by having a home game against Troy than we would by playing NC State. Look at all the recruits we got from West Virginia and Oregon.

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Originally Posted by cubswillwinitonedaydawg

Good point about other BCS schools being in the same boat. Probably hard to find a brand name team that is very beatable, at an attractive enough series and payout deal.
I just feel like there is room for out-of-conference scheduling improvement if it can be done.

Last 4 years and next year OOC:
Memphis, Alcorn St, Houston, UAB
Memphis, LA Tech, UAB, TN Martin
Jackson State, Troy, South AL, Middle TN
Oklahoma St, Alcorn St, Troy, Bowling Green
USM, UAB, South AL, TN Martin

Not many games to get our fanbase pumped about. 1 BCS opponent in 5 years, and that opponent was a top 15 opponent in the first game of the year at a neutral site. Prior to that, Templeton was matching us up against top 25 teams (WVU, GT) but we had a golf-cart driver for a coach. It's been a wrong place at the wrong time kind of deal for us, but we are M-State.
We absolutely need 4 winnable games while keeping this bowl streak alive. BUT, it should include the occasional game where we are only a few point favorite, not a 20+ point favorite (Sunbelt/SWAC schools) or a 15 point underdog (OSU).

Some combination of [SWAC (JSU or Alcorn), Sun-Belt (USA or Troy), C-USA (UAB, Tulane, or USM), BCS low or mid-level (TCU, UNC, Houston, Memphis, Illinois, VA Tech, etc.)] to get to 4 games would be the ideal OOC schedule for most years to me. I know it's tough to get things laid out right, but we should be able to do that at least every 2-3 years.

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You say our fans weren't "pumped" up about those schedules, and yet they all sold out.

I don't think there's an easy way to beat a team with ten wins. I hope we can do it, but I think it comes down to the final minutes.

Yeah, the seats were jam packed for several of those.**

I love our sellout streak. But we would have more actual butts in seats for bigger name teams. I have season tickets and I'm there regardless of opponent if I can help it, as are many dawg fans. But that's not the case for everybody.

I'm not saying ditch the cupcakes - we gotta have those to get to 6 wins - I would just like to see it bumped from 4 to 3. Not a huge deal if we don't, but I certainly wouldn't mind it.

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Originally Posted by Todd4State

No one is missing the point becuase of Richard Cross. Bogey and you are missing the point because the way that you build perception is to continue to win- not by playing Indiana.

I'll tell you what the perception is going to be right now once we play Rice- "Damn- MSU sold that place out! It's all Maroon. They must have good fans. Their team is pretty good too- they've been to four bowls in a row." And then after we skulldrag the nerds from Rice, our fans are going to be wooly and excited for next season. Watch.

The only people that will be down on it are going to be Ole Miss people.

You talk about perception being reailty- let me ask you this- those teams that Coach mentioned below- even notice how NO ONE calls them out on their schedule? Duke and Baylor get TONS of props from ESPN. Why would we be any different? The experts would look even more dumb than usual if they try to call out our schedule when we have to play Bama, LSU, and Auburn every single year. And that's why they don't call us out. That's reality.

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You don't even seem to be talking about the same thing I am, which is growing the MSU brand. If you are fine with letting the SEC grow our brand for us, which your post right after this one seems to do by saying that being in the SEC is all we need, then that's your call. Not to mention you completely take what I am saying out of context by implying that I believe that "playing NC State automatically means we get more recruits". It's about exposure and expanding a brand. It's clear you missed that section of Marketing 101.

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Originally Posted by NewTweederEndzoneDance

You don't even seem to be talking about the same thing I am, which is growing the MSU brand. If you are fine with letting the SEC grow our brand for us, which your post right after this one seems to do by saying that being in the SEC is all we need, then that's your call. Not to mention you completely take what I am saying out of context by implying that I believe that "playing NC State automatically means we get more recruits". It's about exposure and expanding a brand. It's clear you missed that section of Marketing 101.

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The SEC is a huge part of our brand. Your head is in the sand if you deny that. How did playing Oklahoma State this year in the closest thing that we can get to other than a bowl work out for us and our brand? And you're suggesting that playing NC State would somehow magically grow our brand better when it's competing with a lot more SEC games during a week of the regular season?

If we want to grow our brand, we need to get to where we are winning 8 games a year and going to NYD bowls. Not 6 and then a minor bowl.

I didn't miss anything in Marketing 101- but it's clear that you missed History 101. Repeating the doomed past and then expecting better results is foolish. It's all about the bottom line and the end results- that's all recruits look at. They don't have the time or interest to break down SOS and they don't care if we play Indiana or NC State since they know that they are going to get to play Alabama, LSU, A&M, and Auburn every single year at a minimum.

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Originally Posted by cubswillwinitonedaydawg

Yeah, the seats were jam packed for several of those.**

I love our sellout streak. But we would have more actual butts in seats for bigger name teams. I have season tickets and I'm there regardless of opponent if I can help it, as are many dawg fans. But that's not the case for everybody.

I'm not saying ditch the cupcakes - we gotta have those to get to 6 wins - I would just like to see it bumped from 4 to 3. Not a huge deal if we don't, but I certainly wouldn't mind it.

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A sell out is a sell out. If we schedule the cupcakes appropriately, we'll have no problem with the crowds. The opening home game and homecoming are two good examples of times to schedule them. The interest in MSU football this past season was also the lowest it had been since Dan arrived. With our recent turnaround and a likely bowl win- I am expecting the demand for MSU football tickets to be as high as ever.

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Originally Posted by Todd4State

The SEC is a huge part of our brand. Your head is in the sand if you deny that. How did playing Oklahoma State this year in the closest thing that we can get to other than a bowl work out for us and our brand? And you're suggesting that playing NC State would somehow magically grow our brand better when it's competing with a lot more SEC games during a week of the regular season?

If we want to grow our brand, we need to get to where we are winning 8 games a year and going to NYD bowls. Not 6 and then a minor bowl.

I didn't miss anything in Marketing 101- but it's clear that you missed History 101. Repeating the doomed past and then expecting better results is foolish. It's all about the bottom line and the end results- that's all recruits look at. They don't have the time or interest to break down SOS and they don't care if we play Indiana or NC State since they know that they are going to get to play Alabama, LSU, A&M, and Auburn every single year at a minimum.

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What the **** are you talking about? You are literally taking something I say and changing it to something else. Where did I deny that the SEC helps our brand, and is not a big part of it? Nowhere. I advocate that we shouldn't let JUST the SEC push our brand, and should be proactive in growing our own brand on top of what we get from the SEC. And what do other SEC games competing against one of our non-conference games have to do with growing our brand? Nothing. At least not in the context in which I'm having this discussion.

And you are the only one talking about playing NC State helping in getting recruits from MS or wherever our brand is already strong. What I am talking about has NOTHING to do with strengthening our brand in places where it is already strong. Playing one decent name each season is not to get Joe Schmoe from Eupora to think "GEE THEY PLAYED BOSTON COLLEGE THIS YEAR!!! OH GOLLY GEE!! I HAVE TO GO THERE NOW!!!!" No one is asking that guy to break down our strength of schedule. Hell, no one other than you is discussing recruits breaking down anyone's strength of schedule whatsoever. For the record, I am not advocating that we should not also seek to keep our brand strong in places where it already is. The SEC, as you so quickly point out, can surely help us make sure we don't lose the base.

It's about playing decent name games that are winnable. If we play Troy, ESPN may consider showing our score on the bottom line of some other game as it scrolls by. If we play Duke, they will probably show at least a few highlights - there's some increased recognition for you. (And save the bullshit about all of our games are on TV; I recognize that, and if that is your first thought then you are still missing the point by a mile) If we play Troy, John Simmons, future engineering savant from Boston doesn't know nor give a flying **** what Mississippi State is. But if we play BC, perhaps that guy sees something he likes; and who knows, maybe he visits the school to check it out. The same concept applies for recruits NOT FROM MISSISSIPPI. (Just to ensure that you are keeping track here - I'm in no way saying that playing in another state opens the flood gates to all the recruits from there - I'm saying having a footprint elsewhere helps build us up over time)

In my History 101 class I seem to remember learning about our amazing coaches, such as Coach Croom, losing to these shining examples you keep giving us. Last I checked Croom was long gone, and we've been to 4 straight bowl games for the first time in our history. We should have established that baseline by now of 6 wins. I do not disagree that its about getting more wins and playing in better bowl games, and hell I'm not necessarily talking about upping the strength of schedule. I don't want to schedule Florida State and Ohio State every season. I do want to schedule 3 gimme games every season. I also want to schedule someone with name recognition. Apparently you'd rather play 10 win Bowling Green than 5 win Indiana, all for the sake of "we need cupcakes to get more wins". That's not even logic that computes.

If you disagree and think the best thing is to be Cupcake U, then that is fine and you are entitled to your opinion. I think that is simply short-sighted.

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Originally Posted by NewTweederEndzoneDance

What the **** are you talking about? You are literally taking something I say and changing it to something else. Where did I deny that the SEC helps our brand, and is not a big part of it? Nowhere. I advocate that we shouldn't let JUST the SEC push our brand, and should be proactive in growing our own brand on top of what we get from the SEC. And what do other SEC games competing against one of our non-conference games have to do with growing our brand? Nothing. At least not in the context in which I'm having this discussion.

And you are the only one talking about playing NC State helping in getting recruits from MS or wherever our brand is already strong. What I am talking about has NOTHING to do with strengthening our brand in places where it is already strong. Playing one decent name each season is not to get Joe Schmoe from Eupora to think "GEE THEY PLAYED BOSTON COLLEGE THIS YEAR!!! OH GOLLY GEE!! I HAVE TO GO THERE NOW!!!!" No one is asking that guy to break down our strength of schedule. Hell, no one other than you is discussing recruits breaking down anyone's strength of schedule whatsoever. For the record, I am not advocating that we should not also seek to keep our brand strong in places where it already is. The SEC, as you so quickly point out, can surely help us make sure we don't lose the base.

It's about playing decent name games that are winnable. If we play Troy, ESPN may consider showing our score on the bottom line of some other game as it scrolls by. If we play Duke, they will probably show at least a few highlights - there's some increased recognition for you. (And save the bullshit about all of our games are on TV; I recognize that, and if that is your first thought then you are still missing the point by a mile) If we play Troy, John Simmons, future engineering savant from Boston doesn't know nor give a flying **** what Mississippi State is. But if we play BC, perhaps that guy sees something he likes; and who knows, maybe he visits the school to check it out. The same concept applies for recruits NOT FROM MISSISSIPPI. (Just to ensure that you are keeping track here - I'm in no way saying that playing in another state opens the flood gates to all the recruits from there - I'm saying having a footprint elsewhere helps build us up over time)

In my History 101 class I seem to remember learning about our amazing coaches, such as Coach Croom, losing to these shining examples you keep giving us. Last I checked Croom was long gone, and we've been to 4 straight bowl games for the first time in our history. We should have established that baseline by now of 6 wins. I do not disagree that its about getting more wins and playing in better bowl games, and hell I'm not necessarily talking about upping the strength of schedule. I don't want to schedule Florida State and Ohio State every season. I do want to schedule 3 gimme games every season. I also want to schedule someone with name recognition. Apparently you'd rather play 10 win Bowling Green than 5 win Indiana, all for the sake of "we need cupcakes to get more wins". That's not even logic that computes.

If you disagree and think the best thing is to be Cupcake U, then that is fine and you are entitled to your opinion. I think that is simply short-sighted.

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Well done, sir! Outstanding post!

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Originally Posted by NewTweederEndzoneDance

I do want to schedule 3 gimme games every season. I also want to schedule someone with name recognition. Apparently you'd rather play 10 win Bowling Green than 5 win Indiana, all for the sake of "we need cupcakes to get more wins". That's not even logic that computes.

If you disagree and think the best thing is to be Cupcake U, then that is fine and you are entitled to your opinion. I think that is simply short-sighted.

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The thing is- we play Bowling Green- we dont have to give them a return game. We play Indiana- we will have to take our asses to Bloomington.

I'm all for playing 8 games per season in Davis Wade as much as possible. Thats tough, as we already have to give the South Alabama's of the world a return game. We simply can't go on the road twice in the OOC.

And Coach, I think I may be only speaking for myself here, but Bowling Green is one of those non-patsy teams I can deal with.

My concern is not how name brand the team is we play, but just that we aren't convicted of playing the lowest 4 teams we can get our hands on to schedule. That is the recipe for being left out of the final four. This thing is going to be subjective as all hell. The first time a team makes it in playing the easiest nonconference schedule they could and we are going to see the Networks press the 13 member committee to evaluate the non conference CHOICES each school makes. Teams who chose to play 4 notorious patsies are going to get butchered in the media and that will result in a missed opportunity EVEN IF THEY DESERVED TO GET IN.

MSU will have precious few chances, if any, in our lifetime to have a chance at that crystal. If we miss that opportunity in the name of avoiding a 5-7 season is what I cannot live with. If we are good enough to win it all, we will be good enough to beat that Nc State or Indiana.

If we are on the cusp of a 5-7 or 6-6 season and our bowl hopes ride on beating Central Arkansas rather than sitting at home because we played Georgia Tech, then that isn't much of a goal to reach for and little is lost.

The thing is, as we are right now, we aren't going to suddenly find ourselves fighting to get into the top 4. Once our program has reached that point, then we can discuss whether it makes sense to schedule a tougher OOC game.

But it still doesn't really matter much. Lose 2 games, and you're probably out of the playoff. Lose 1, in the SEC, and you're probably in...OOC games won't matter a whole lot.

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Originally Posted by NewTweederEndzoneDance

What the **** are you talking about? You are literally taking something I say and changing it to something else. Where did I deny that the SEC helps our brand, and is not a big part of it? Nowhere. I advocate that we shouldn't let JUST the SEC push our brand, and should be proactive in growing our own brand on top of what we get from the SEC. And what do other SEC games competing against one of our non-conference games have to do with growing our brand? Nothing. At least not in the context in which I'm having this discussion.

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It's pretty clear by now you don't know what you are talking about or are bipolar. Either that or you are trying to pretend that your point wasn't bad by pretending that you were talking about something else. But OK- you want to talk about how WE can push our brand with JUST the SEC? You do that by consistently winning 8-9 games a year. And how do you do that? By MSU putting themselves in the best position possible. I'm not saying the we should JUST let the SEC push us- but it is extremely relevant since you know- we ARE in the SEC. My point was because of that we don't have to do gimmicky things like play on Thursday or play a killer schedule to get recognition. If you go up to some random high school football player in Massachusetts and ask them if they would like to play in the SEC, more often than not the answer is going to be "yes". And then if you ask them "even if that school was MSU, the answer is still going to be "yes". You pretending that we are talking about something totally different and wanting to try to stray away from that does not change that. I do understand why you want me to leave that alone- because it completely blows your point out of the water.

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And you are the only one talking about playing NC State helping in getting recruits from MS or wherever our brand is already strong. What I am talking about has NOTHING to do with strengthening our brand in places where it is already strong. Playing one decent name each season is not to get Joe Schmoe from Eupora to think "GEE THEY PLAYED BOSTON COLLEGE THIS YEAR!!! OH GOLLY GEE!! I HAVE TO GO THERE NOW!!!!" No one is asking that guy to break down our strength of schedule. Hell, no one other than you is discussing recruits breaking down anyone's strength of schedule whatsoever. For the record, I am not advocating that we should not also seek to keep our brand strong in places where it already is. The SEC, as you so quickly point out, can surely help us make sure we don't lose the base.

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No- I understand that you are talking about getting recruits from around the country. But apparently you didn't understand me when I said that playing Oregon and West Virginia- and heck even Georgia Tech didn't help us get recruits from ANY of those areas OR anywhere else. And I would wager that a big reason why we don't get some of the five star elite recruits is because they see us as a 6-7 win type team rather than an 8 win type team. Again, this shows how little you understand about scheduling. I mention recruiting because it IS VERY important. And giving away home games hurts us- there's no two ways around it. Sorry- some of us would like to have an upper level SEC program rather than watch us play someone interesting and stay 6-6.

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It's about playing decent name games that are winnable. If we play Troy, ESPN may consider showing our score on the bottom line of some other game as it scrolls by. If we play Duke, they will probably show at least a few highlights - there's some increased recognition for you. (And save the bullshit about all of our games are on TV; I recognize that, and if that is your first thought then you are still missing the point by a mile) If we play Troy, John Simmons, future engineering savant from Boston doesn't know nor give a flying **** what Mississippi State is. But if we play BC, perhaps that guy sees something he likes; and who knows, maybe he visits the school to check it out. The same concept applies for recruits NOT FROM MISSISSIPPI. (Just to ensure that you are keeping track here - I'm in no way saying that playing in another state opens the flood gates to all the recruits from there - I'm saying having a footprint elsewhere helps build us up over time)

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So, you think it's a good idea to give away a home game, lose money, and hurt football recruiting for a 30 second highlight and that 5% chance that an engineering scholar might come to MSU because he saw said highlight? Speaking of bullshit- it's obvious you bought LT's. Because that was EXACTLY his thought process behind scheduling the other interesting teams.

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In my History 101 class I seem to remember learning about our amazing coaches, such as Coach Croom, losing to these shining examples you keep giving us. Last I checked Croom was long gone, and we've been to 4 straight bowl games for the first time in our history. We should have established that baseline by now of 6 wins. I do not disagree that its about getting more wins and playing in better bowl games, and hell I'm not necessarily talking about upping the strength of schedule. I don't want to schedule Florida State and Ohio State every season. I do want to schedule 3 gimme games every season. I also want to schedule someone with name recognition. Apparently you'd rather play 10 win Bowling Green than 5 win Indiana, all for the sake of "we need cupcakes to get more wins". That's not even logic that computes.

If you disagree and think the best thing is to be Cupcake U, then that is fine and you are entitled to your opinion. I think that is simply short-sighted.

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So, Croom was a bad coach. Byrne dealt with it and we moved on because he couldn't handle a manageable schedule. That's irrelevant since he isn't our coach anymore and we have one that can potentially take us to the next level. Actually, since we started playing manageable schedule our baseline has increased, and should increase more the longer we do it. I'm not talking about SOS either- what I AM talking about is what is best for MSU. Giving away home games and costing MSU more in the process is NOT in our best interests. I don't know how much more simple I can put that. You can come back with "I don't know what the **** you're talking about" all you want- but the reason I am bringing up issues such as recruiting, the SEC, money and all of that is because it is absolutely relevant when you are talking about scheduling Duke (heck, they made Alabama play them in Durham a few years ago). If you don't believe me- ask Scott or any other AD at any school. And get back to me when we have to play Bowling Green in Ohio.

What's really happening here is all of the "interesting" schedule people are now trying to compromise since it is obvious to anyone with a brain that the manageable schedule people are right. But instead of West Virginia, they are throwing Indiana or Iowa State out there.

My suggestion is to go watch Indiana play on one of MSU's weeks off if you really want to see them that bad.

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Originally Posted by Coach34

The thing is- we play Bowling Green- we dont have to give them a return game. We play Indiana- we will have to take our asses to Bloomington.

I'm all for playing 8 games per season in Davis Wade as much as possible. Thats tough, as we already have to give the South Alabama's of the world a return game. We simply can't go on the road twice in the OOC.

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But the good thing about playing South Alabama, Tulane, Memphis is even though that is a road game, our fans will show up and basically turn that into an at worst neutral site game- and more than likely into a de facto 8th home game. Bloomington, Indiana- probably not so much.

Todd, you clearly still don't understand what I'm saying. That little stick is apparently blocking your view of the forest I'm describing. Thanks for telling me that I was just pretending to talk about something that I wasn't though, as if you have any idea what I'm talking about. Super argument winning tactic there. Good day to you sir.

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Originally Posted by Todd4State

A sell out is a sell out. If we schedule the cupcakes appropriately, we'll have no problem with the crowds. The opening home game and homecoming are two good examples of times to schedule them. The interest in MSU football this past season was also the lowest it had been since Dan arrived. With our recent turnaround and a likely bowl win- I am expecting the demand for MSU football tickets to be as high as ever.

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I hope you're right and I think you probably will be. Stadium expansion, a lot of young talent and depth, 4 straight bowls. Lots of reasons for ticket sales to skyrocket. I guess the attendance and atmosphere for a couple of the games this year (BG and Kentucky) got me worried, especially since we're adding more seats. I hope the extra seats will mean added butts, not extra room for fat people to stretch out. If not for the turnaround and bowl like you mentioned, I would be a lot more worried. I think the momentum will help in that regard though. Guess we'll see.