OT: BBWA once again shows their ass

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Originally Posted by SPMT

Bonds hit 28 at age 42 and struck out 54 times! While being tested and investigated. We all know he wasn't loaded then.

We all know he saw some lesser players breaking records and he said watch this, i'll do the same shit and show you what I can do.

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I must have replied to the wrong post. First, No way Bonds makes it to playing at age 42 without the roids. The steroid affect lasts for up to ten years after you stop taking them, so that point is invalid. Lots of Olympic supporters are pushing for much longer bans due to this new information of the long term advantages of steroids.

Hank hit 40 or more 8 times clean and 30 or more 15 times. Bonds did it clean 6 times. Sure, he would have kept doing it a few more years but to think he would have kept playing as long as he did without the steroids and hitting over 40 every year is just fantasy. He may have hit 550-600 HRs. I doubt it but he could have done it. No way he could have reached 700 or heaven forbid Hanks 755. He barely passed him on the juice and hitting 40-73 HRs year every year for almost a decade.

That one year of 73, he may have only hit 40-45 if clean which is still great but not 73 great. He was the best hitter at the time, no doubt. But he cheated the game when he used and the Homerun record should mean something even if you really can't compare era's like Todd said.

Teams are all hitting the same pitching. So if Ruth can feast off of tired pitchers throwing 80 mph, then so can all of the other hitters in the league.

Based upon their best season:
Ruth - 60 homers. The average team hit 50 homers.
Bonds - 73 homers. The average team hit 185 homers.

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Originally Posted by somebodyshotmypaw

Teams are all hitting the same pitching. So if Ruth can feast off of tired pitchers throwing 80 mph, then so can all of the other hitters in the league.

Based upon their best season:
Ruth - 60 homers. The average team hit 50 homers.
Bonds - 73 homers. The average team hit 185 homers.

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Good point. Based on what I've read, guys into the 20's were throwing low 90's -high 80's with Walter Johnson reaching upper 90's which was rare back then. The no relief ball was also an advantage for hitters back then. But NO Player is even close to separating themselves from their fellow players than Ruth. Hitting more HR's than entire teams and his best years saw one out of every 6 HR's hit in the AL belonged to Ruth. He will always be The King and all time Sultan of Swat. Imagine the lack of wheels and consistently being in top 6 or so in triples.

The lenses through which the comparisons are being made on this thread are impressive. Not just a black and white subject, but lots of grey areas.

Another Ruth stat:

In 1919 Ruth hit 29 homers. The entire league only hit 447 homers. Ruth hit 6.49% of all homers.

In 1921 Ruth hit 59 homers. The entire league only hit 937 homers. Ruth hit 6.30% of all homers.

In 2012 the entire league hit 4934 homers. So to match Ruth’s percentage, a single player would have to hit between 310 and 320 homers in that single season.

I wasnt trying to downplay Ruth's accomplishments or impact. He was a gamechanger. But there does have to be some context.

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Originally Posted by Coach34

I wasnt trying to downplay Ruth's accomplishments or impact. He was a gamechanger. But there does have to be some context.

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Which is he was facing the same pitching as the
rest.

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Originally Posted by Coach34

I wasnt trying to downplay Ruth's accomplishments or impact. He was a gamechanger. But there does have to be some context.

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I’m not saying Ruth was better than even the average player today. It’s impossible to compare eras. I was just pointing out what an anomaly he was in his day.

All this talk about steroids cheating the game.

I'll just throw this out there. Why is using the latest and greatest health advancement cheating?

What makes something a peformance "enhancing" drug?

If tylenol curtails a headache, isn't that a PED?

Why is there an arbitrary line? Why isn't recovery formula drinks and weightlifting powder all banned? Why are some allowed?

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Originally Posted by Tater

All this talk about steroids cheating the game.

I'll just throw this out there. Why is using the latest and greatest health advancement cheating?

What makes something a peformance "enhancing" drug?

If tylenol curtails a headache, isn't that a PED?

Why is there an arbitrary line? Why isn't recovery formula drinks and weightlifting powder all banned? Why are some allowed?

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The right people are making their money off of it.

Steve Rogers was a wimp until super serum. No one calls BS on Captain America. Why? We like him. We like to pick and choose our heroes. Unfortunately, in sports, your hero can be 31 other team?s villain, and we trash them.

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Originally Posted by Tater

All this talk about steroids cheating the game.

I'll just throw this out there. Why is using the latest and greatest health advancement cheating?

What makes something a peformance "enhancing" drug?

If tylenol curtails a headache, isn't that a PED?

Why is there an arbitrary line? Why isn't recovery formula drinks and weightlifting powder all banned? Why are some allowed?

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I'll say this about the steroids era for context on behalf of those players.

Baseball before the late 80's I would say working out was big time taboo. Probably really was into the early 1990's for a lot of guys if I'm being honest. But what happened is you had guys like Nolan Ryan training hard and working out and it turns out the opposite of what was universally thought was happening. Guys were playing longer and performing better. Jose Canseco was probably the poster boy for that- who yes used steroids and Bo Jackson who worked out like he did because he played in the NFL.

So baseball players who had really never worked out much before in their lives started to work out. And they had no idea what the hell the were doing. So they hired trainers. The trainers were the guys giving the players steroids in a lot of cases and the players either had no idea what it was or they knew and it didn't matter because it wasn't illegal in baseball so they weren't breaking any rules.

Then Jose Canseco got jealous of McGwire because Canseco ended up out of the game because he was lazy and Big Mac was essentially a national hero. So he rats everyone out and then the government decided to get involved for some reason. And now you have these holier than thou loser sports writers who never played past rec league deciding that they're going to keep all of these guys out because they think it somehow makes them better people or something.

What has happened is the training has evolved. It's light years better than it was in 1998. There are more guys throwing 100 than ever before and you have guys throwing 105 even. Hitting would be up there too and even better once someone realizes that hitting for power and average is better than hitting for power and striking out 200 times a season.

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Originally Posted by Hot Rock

I must have replied to the wrong post. First, No way Bonds makes it to playing at age 42 without the roids. The steroid affect lasts for up to ten years after you stop taking them, so that point is invalid. Lots of Olympic supporters are pushing for much longer bans due to this new information of the long term advantages of steroids.

Hank hit 40 or more 8 times clean and 30 or more 15 times. Bonds did it clean 6 times. Sure, he would have kept doing it a few more years but to think he would have kept playing as long as he did without the steroids and hitting over 40 every year is just fantasy. He may have hit 550-600 HRs. I doubt it but he could have done it. No way he could have reached 700 or heaven forbid Hanks 755. He barely passed him on the juice and hitting 40-73 HRs year every year for almost a decade.

That one year of 73, he may have only hit 40-45 if clean which is still great but not 73 great. He was the best hitter at the time, no doubt. But he cheated the game when he used and the Homerun record should mean something even if you really can't compare era's like Todd said.

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I don't know. Pujols has played to that age. Aaron played that long too. Mays, and others played into their 40's. It's not common for a regular player but for a superstar it's certainly not unheard of. And that's throughout multiple eras.

This page has been a damn good read; thanks to all.

Here's my question though. How much bad side effects exist with this stuff these days? I heard it shrivel your Junk & shit along with other serious organ damage. Is it fair for a player who wants no Johnson Damage compete with another who may be willing to trade a few inches for 35lbs of extra muscle? (Except the muscle between the legs)

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Originally Posted by OLJWales

This page has been a damn good read; thanks to all.

Here's my question though. How much bad side effects exist with this stuff these days? I heard it shrivel your Junk & shit along with other serious organ damage. Is it fair for a player who wants no Johnson Damage compete with another who may be willing to trade a few inches for 35lbs of extra muscle? (Except the muscle between the legs)

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Liver and kidney damage is real. Those lead to a ton of co-morbitities on their own. Many elevate the bph to hypertension levels which have detrimental effects on long term health. There?s a reason so many body builders look like the image of fitness and die before they?re 60.

The myth of your junk shriveling up and shrinking is actually a short term truth. What a certain stack that was popular in the late 90s to mid 2005 did was dehydrate your body to push it into other areas for muscle growth. This was a short term effect of it. The clubhouse knew who was using for 3 days after injection due to “turtlehead”. It was a running joke in the league and organizations. There was no long term effects of that area. However, as much as it pains me to say DAK IS CORRECT in the long term overall health effect that it has on your organs mainly the fatty organs such as liver, and for men prostate glands. Women do they have found are more prone to breast issues later in life.

The list of pro ball players that used steroids in the 2000s is very very long. Some did it for recovery whereas others simply abused it and they became obvious with their bodies giving them away. You will be surprised at how many beloved “little guys” used them.

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Originally Posted by SilentSteel16

The myth of your junk shriveling up and shrinking is actually a short term truth. What a certain stack that was popular in the late 90s to mid 2005 did was dehydrate your body to push it into other areas for muscle growth. This was a short term effect of it. The clubhouse knew who was using for 3 days after injection due to ?turtlehead?. It was a running joke in the league and organizations. There was no long term effects of that area. However, as much as it pains me to say DAK IS CORRECT in the long term overall health effect that it has on your organs mainly the fatty organs such as liver, and for men prostate glands. Women do they have found are more prone to breast issues later in life.

The list of pro ball players that used steroids in the 2000s is very very long. Some did it for recovery whereas others simply abused it and they became obvious with their bodies giving them away. You will be surprised at how many beloved ?little guys? used them.

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Rep earned and given

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Originally Posted by OLJWales

This page has been a damn good read; thanks to all.

Here's my question though. How much bad side effects exist with this stuff these days? I heard it shrivel your Junk & shit along with other serious organ damage. Is it fair for a player who wants no Johnson Damage compete with another who may be willing to trade a few inches for 35lbs of extra muscle? (Except the muscle between the legs)

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Guess he wasn't willing to sacrifice enough to succeed. Doesn't have the desire to be great.

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Originally Posted by Tater

Guess he wasn't willing to sacrifice enough to succeed. Doesn't have the desire to be great.

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So in order to be a great ballplayer they have to use PEDS?

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Originally Posted by Catfish

So in order to be a great ballplayer they have to use PEDS?

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That's how it reads. That's not a very good take.

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Originally Posted by Matt3467

That's how it reads. That's not a very good take.

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I agree. There have been a lot of great ballplayers that didn't use peds.

I believe he was trying to be funny about not willing to lose inches elsewhere. Really think he was trying to be funny

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Originally Posted by OLJWales

This page has been a damn good read; thanks to all.

Here's my question though. How much bad side effects exist with this stuff these days? I heard it shrivel your Junk & shit along with other serious organ damage. Is it fair for a player who wants no Johnson Damage compete with another who may be willing to trade a few inches for 35lbs of extra muscle? (Except the muscle between the legs)

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It's mostly because it ruins your liver, kidney, and heart. Those side effects are very real. I had a patient who was a bodybuilder who had to get a heart transplant because he blew out his heart using steroids.

To me, from a baseball standpoint the issue is do you want to sacrifice years off of your life for millions of dollars which may set your family up for their life?

For a lot of baseball players it wasn't about adding muscle. It was about aiding recovery which is needed because a 162+ game baseball season is absolutely brutal.

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Originally Posted by Todd4State

It's mostly because it ruins your liver, kidney, and heart. Those side effects are very real. I had a patient who was a bodybuilder who had to get a heart transplant because he blew out his heart using steroids.

To me, from a baseball standpoint the issue is do you want to sacrifice years off of your life for millions of dollars which may set your family up for their life?

For a lot of baseball players it wasn't about adding muscle. It was about aiding recovery which is needed because a 162+ game baseball season is absolutely brutal.

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Not 100 % on board. Anything non toxic should be cool while side effect Shit needs to be gone and punished.

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Originally Posted by Catfish

So in order to be a great ballplayer they have to use PEDS?

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In order to be great you gotta make sacrifices. Brady sacrificed his kid's childhood and being a dad. But nowhere did I say that PED usage was a requirement for being great. Tongue-in-cheek joke about needing to do what others won't to be great. Idk where both you and matt learned to read, but might need to go back and pick up context clues you're missing.

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Originally Posted by Matt3467

That's how it reads. That's not a very good take.

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How it reads is measuring guy who will take PEDs vs ones who won't. One is quite explicitly willing to sacrifice more to achieve greatness.

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Originally Posted by SilentSteel16

I believe he was trying to be funny about not willing to lose inches elsewhere. Really think he was trying to be funny

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Thank lord not everyone here is unable to read.

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Originally Posted by OLJWales

Not 100 % on board. Anything non toxic should be cool while side effect Shit needs to be gone and punished.

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There's side effects to everything. If you could sacrifice your 70s and onward for having 100 million at 25, a lot of people would do that.

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Originally Posted by Tater

There's side effects to everything. If you could sacrifice your 70s and onward for having 100 million at 25, a lot of people would do that.

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100% Agree.

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Originally Posted by OLJWales

Not 100 % on board. Anything non toxic should be cool while side effect Shit needs to be gone and punished.

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Agree. And that's why baseball banned it. But that's the fault of players like Bonds and McGwire who played when it wasn't illegal in baseball. And they shouldn't be penalized for it. All of this was new for MLB in the 1990's because of what I said earlier- it simply wasn't an issue because no one lifted weights outside of Frank Howard for years in baseball. Steroids weren't even a thought until the late 1980's.