2nd lowest point total scored vs OM in 2020

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11-28-2020, 10:00 PM
HoopsDawg

Quote:

Originally Posted by Activated Alpha

Only because Mullen came after Croom. Hell you could have put a mob bucket out there as a coach and it would have been better than Croom. But still, tell me again what was Mullen's SEC record in his first year? I understand being bitter about losing to the shitbirds, but this doom and gloom shit on this board is getting to be intolerable.

If anyone tries to compare the first year of Leach to the first year of Mullen, they immediately lose any crediblity. I've never been so happy to be 5-7 as I was under Mullen.
11-28-2020, 10:02 PM
KOdawg1

Here's the deal. A few weeks ago, I was convinced this offense would never work in the SEC. I still think that, but I think if he adapts, it has a chance. Leach's pass to run ratio seems to be moving heavier towards pass as his career goes on. That's not going to work. At Texas Tech, he ran the ball much more, and I think he needs to move back to that. I know he's not gonna abandon the air raid. I'm not advocating for him to. But he's got to establish a better running game than he has now. This simple draw BS isn't enough. He needs more pre-snap movement, sweeps, counters, maybe a read option. Those are easy 8 yard gains that he's giving up on in favor of check down passes. The defense isn't having to think. A thinking defense is a slow defense.

Right now, this offense will put up enough points to beat bad teams. If you have a negative play, the drive is toast. If you have to move with a sense of urgency, you're toast. If you have a 3rd or 4th and short, you're limited on what you can do because you literally have two running plays. It doesn't make sense. Leach can keep doing this and he'll win 4-5 games a year and will retire to Key West in 2 more years. Or he can adapt, add creativity and a better running game, and bump our ceiling to 7-8 wins. It's up to him.
11-28-2020, 10:03 PM
Activated Alpha

Quote:

Originally Posted by HoopsDawg

If anyone tries to compare the first year of Leach to the first year of Mullen, they immediately lose any crediblity. I've never been so happy to be 5-7 as I was under Mullen.

Why were you happy though? Mullen had OOC cupcakes to beat and to instill his offense accordingly. However he only won 3 SEC games that year and wasn't that much better the next year. You and C34 have grinded out an agenda over the past 6 weeks against Leach even though everyone else can understand the odds stacking against him. You are the one with not a lot of credibility.
11-28-2020, 10:04 PM
Jack Lambert

Quote:

Originally Posted by MetEdDawg

How many of those teams have a freshman QB?

How many of those teams have a defense depleted so badly that they can't really give the offense a short field to work with or turn the ball over? Happy? No. But seeing what 49 guys bought into Leach can do? Yes.

I get it. You want to be right about Leach. But we took 49 scholarship players into Oxford with a freshman QB, a freshman RB, and a freshman WR leading in their respective categories.

The team we have left plays damned hard. And if you want to give OM the field goals, give us the fluke fumble at the 1 by Austin Williams as a TD since we are giving teams things they didn't earn.

Get that out of here tonight. We played hard. Offense looks better. Still needs work. Defense is insanely depleted. And we were 10 point underdogs. We shouldn't have won. We didn't win. But we very well could have.

This was the most meaningless Egg Bowl in the last 20 years. I'll be ok. Not happy but can see the progress.

I listen to the radio and Matt said there was only 47 scholarship players and we played 14 freshman. We have a good core of guys to build around. OLe miss dressed out 30+ more guys then we had.
11-28-2020, 10:06 PM
msstate7

Quote:

Originally Posted by Activated Alpha

Why were you happy though? Mullen had OOC cupcakes to beat and to instill his offense accordingly. However he only won 3 SEC games that year and wasn't that much better the next year. You and C34 have grinded out an agenda over the past 6 weeks against Leach even though everyone else can understand the odds stacking against him. You are the one with not a lot of credibility.

Georgia tech and Houston weren't cupcakes. Didn't we play the hardest schedule in the year that season?
11-28-2020, 10:07 PM
HoopsDawg

Quote:

Originally Posted by Activated Alpha

Why were you happy though? Mullen had OOC cupcakes to beat and to instill his offense accordingly. However he only won 3 SEC games that year and wasn't that much better the next year. You and C34 have grinded out an agenda over the past 6 weeks against Leach even though everyone else can understand the odds stacking against him. You are the one with not a lot of credibility.

I have no agenda except I want State to win. I was optimistic when we hired Leach. This season has been one of the worst coaching jobs I've ever witnessed.
11-28-2020, 10:13 PM
Coach34

Quote:

Originally Posted by msstate7

Georgia tech and Houston weren't cupcakes. Didn't we play the hardest schedule in the year that season?

LMAO- Ga Tech and Houston both won 10 games in 2009 that season. Our fans will go to any lengths to try and prop up coaches that suck
11-28-2020, 10:16 PM
Really Clark?

Quote:

Originally Posted by msstate7

Georgia tech and Houston weren't cupcakes. Didn't we play the hardest schedule in the year that season?

We did, hardest schedule in the country Dan’s first year
11-28-2020, 10:22 PM
Alphadog

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coach34

LMAO- Ga Tech and Houston both won 10 games in 2009 that season. Our fans will go to any lengths to try and prop up coaches that suck

We may not win another game in while Leach is coach here but a high school offensive coordinator saying a SEC head coach sucks is funny to me. If only you would have gotten that GA gig you would be the one we are criticizing on this board tonight.
11-28-2020, 10:23 PM
the_real_MSU_is_us

I've never been more embarrassed for a grown ass man than I am for C34. To be a Fing HS coach and literally maintain that had he taken a GA job he'd be making 5M a year is the most uncle Rico thing I've ever literally witnessed.

And yes, he'll just move the goalposts no matter what happens going forward. Remember when he said this D would be bottom in the SEC? And then it was top till 2 they lost 4 starters? Yeah he literally counted pic 6's against the D because once the ball is intercepted the "offense becomes the defense". Literally- apparently if Costello throws an int and neither he nor the WR can run the CB down it's Arnett's fault. Now he pretends he never said any of it and shits on the O

How anyone can crap on an O with True Fr leading the way at every skill position, no depth at all, and that's getting better, I have no idea. But some still do.

And yeah this year has sucked. I'm old enough to remember (because I'm more than 1 year old) when this entire board was in agreement than JoMo had destroyed our culture and 2020 would be a loss because of it. Flash forward to 2020 and the new coach has to clear out the culture issues, and people are shocked, shocked!, that the product on the field isn't good.

Fact is Leach has fixed the culture, we have a lot of young talent that's improved drastically, and we've got Leach guys coming in. Let's not forget Leach has never been a quick fix guy, so this isn't out of the norm.

Things are looking up, it's a shame some of y'all are too stubborn to admit it/too impatient to give Leach a pass for this year
11-28-2020, 10:24 PM
msstate7

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alphadog

We may not win another game in while Leach is coach here but a high school offensive coordinator saying a SEC head coach sucks is funny to me. If only you would have gotten that GA gig you would be the one we are criticizing on this board tonight.

C34 and I have butted heads too many times to count, but it's dumb to be critical of him bc he's a HS coach. Hell, that makes him more qualified than almost all of us here to critique a coach
11-28-2020, 10:26 PM
msu15

Quote:

Originally Posted by msstate7

C34 and I have butted heads too many times to count, but it's dumb to be critical of him bc he's a HS coach. Hell, that makes him more qualified than almost all of us here to critique a coach

He loses all credibility when he calls Mike Leach, who's had more success than fat boy would ever dream of, a "shit coach". C34 is pathetic
11-28-2020, 10:32 PM
Alphadog

Quote:

Originally Posted by msu15

He loses all credibility when he calls Mike Leach, who's had more success than fat boy would ever dream of, a "shit coach". C34 is pathetic

this right here is correct. He just inferred that if he had taken the GA gig that he would be a successful D1 coach like Leach. To that I call bullshit
11-28-2020, 10:33 PM
Matt3467

Quote:

Originally Posted by msstate7

Mullen took over a team that wasn't good at all, and played one of the toughest schedules in the country. Every state fan was excited about mullen. There was zero concern over Dan his first season

I'm pretty sure this years schedule would be plenty tougher than the one Dan had in '09 then you throw in covid and our team dropping like flies.
11-28-2020, 10:34 PM
maroonmania

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alphadog

We may not win another game in while Leach is coach here but a high school offensive coordinator saying a SEC head coach sucks is funny to me. If only you would have gotten that GA gig you would be the one we are criticizing on this board tonight.

And not just a random SEC HC, an SEC HC that has 141 P5 wins.
11-28-2020, 10:37 PM
Tbonewannabe

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coach34

yeahhhhh- posters dont want this kind of honesty tonight

Didn't you say this defense was going to be Sirmon level bad?
11-28-2020, 10:37 PM
Todd4State

Quote:

Originally Posted by KOdawg1

Here's the deal. A few weeks ago, I was convinced this offense would never work in the SEC. I still think that, but I think if he adapts, it has a chance. Leach's pass to run ratio seems to be moving heavier towards pass as his career goes on. That's not going to work. At Texas Tech, he ran the ball much more, and I think he needs to move back to that. I know he's not gonna abandon the air raid. I'm not advocating for him to. But he's got to establish a better running game than he has now. This simple draw BS isn't enough. He needs more pre-snap movement, sweeps, counters, maybe a read option. Those are easy 8 yard gains that he's giving up on in favor of check down passes. The defense isn't having to think. A thinking defense is a slow defense.

Right now, this offense will put up enough points to beat bad teams. If you have a negative play, the drive is toast. If you have to move with a sense of urgency, you're toast. If you have a 3rd or 4th and short, you're limited on what you can do because you literally have two running plays. It doesn't make sense. Leach can keep doing this and he'll win 4-5 games a year and will retire to Key West in 2 more years. Or he can adapt, add creativity and a better running game, and bump our ceiling to 7-8 wins. It's up to him.

Sounds a lot like Dan Mullen's offense most of the time he was here.
11-28-2020, 10:38 PM
msstate7

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matt3467

I'm pretty sure this years schedule would be plenty tougher than the one Dan had in '09 then you throw in covid and our team dropping like flies.

In 2009, we celebrated moral victories against the likes of #17 LSU. Now we beating our chest for only losing to OM by 7.
11-28-2020, 10:40 PM
Matt3467

I respect C34 and usually always enjoy reading his takes but it's clear here that he and plenty others on this board have an ax to grind with Leach. I really don't think they want him to succeed. Regardless of how our record is at the end of the year this year has been the most difficult year in the history of MSU football and it's much more difficult for us than probably any other D1 team I know of with covid, culture, opt-outs, tap outs combined. I don't always agree that moral victories are good but in this case I'm very happy with what I see. I believe that 3 years from now barring any more virus issues that we will be very good.
11-28-2020, 10:41 PM
msstate7

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matt3467

I respect C34 and usually always enjoy reading his takes but it's clear here that he and plenty other on this board have an ax to grind with Leach. I really don't think they want him to succeed. Regardless of how our record is at the end of the year this year has been the most difficult year in the history of MSU football and it's much more difficult for us than probably any other D1 team I know of with covid, culture, opt-outs, tap outs combined. I don't always agree that moral victories are good but in this case I'm very happy with what I see. I believe that 3 years from now barring any more virus issues that we will be very good.

Yay, we hung with OM. When did they pass us as a program?
11-28-2020, 10:44 PM
Matt3467

Quote:

Originally Posted by msstate7

Yay, we hung with OM. When did they pass us as a program?

We can change the subject. When did we pass OM as a program? Historically speaking we haven't.
11-28-2020, 10:47 PM
msstate7

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matt3467

We can change the subject. When did we pass OM as a program? Historically speaking we haven't.

We've clearly been better the last few years.

Did you (or anyone here) say OM had passed us as a program preseason? No
11-28-2020, 11:02 PM
Captain Falcon

Quote:

Originally Posted by msstate7

Yay, we hung with OM. When did they pass us as a program?

I think the seeds were sewn in the Moorhead era when we had a chance to create some real separation given their NCAA issues and didn?t do it. They were a 4-8 team last year and we beat them by one point at home. And recruiting-wise they?ve hit on some guys in key positions where we have not.

This year they returned a lot offensively and have stayed in tact, while our roster was a mismatch of parts to begin with and has had a ton of turnover and young guys being thrown into the fire.

I thought they were getting way ahead of us until the last two games. Now I feel differently, even after they beat us today.
11-28-2020, 11:06 PM
Cowbell

Quote:

Originally Posted by msstate7

Mullen took over a team that wasn't good at all, and played one of the toughest schedules in the country. Every state fan was excited about mullen. There was zero concern over Dan his first season

This is correct
11-28-2020, 11:11 PM
Cowbell

Quote:

Originally Posted by KOdawg1

Here's the deal. A few weeks ago, I was convinced this offense would never work in the SEC. I still think that, but I think if he adapts, it has a chance. Leach's pass to run ratio seems to be moving heavier towards pass as his career goes on. That's not going to work. At Texas Tech, he ran the ball much more, and I think he needs to move back to that. I know he's not gonna abandon the air raid. I'm not advocating for him to. But he's got to establish a better running game than he has now. This simple draw BS isn't enough. He needs more pre-snap movement, sweeps, counters, maybe a read option. Those are easy 8 yard gains that he's giving up on in favor of check down passes. The defense isn't having to think. A thinking defense is a slow defense.

Right now, this offense will put up enough points to beat bad teams. If you have a negative play, the drive is toast. If you have to move with a sense of urgency, you're toast. If you have a 3rd or 4th and short, you're limited on what you can do because you literally have two running plays. It doesn't make sense. Leach can keep doing this and he'll win 4-5 games a year and will retire to Key West in 2 more years. Or he can adapt, add creativity and a better running game, and bump our ceiling to 7-8 wins. It's up to him.

You don't pay 5 mil for a 7-8 win ceiling
11-28-2020, 11:13 PM
Percho

Quote:

Originally Posted by maroonmania

This is just a crap thread and the type that makes a lot of folks wish C34 would just post less. We have AT LEAST 2 more years of Leach and he has obviously lost a lot of players that didn't buy into his ways. Between that and injuries and COVID, given what he has left, I am just fine with what I'm seeing on the field. At least they are giving a good effort and I see some improvement on the offensive side. Attrition has just killed our defense. But WHAT good does a post like this do unless you are just trying to influence the fan base to NOT support the current HC. And like I said, this isn't a deal where a coaching change might be made, this is a situation where Leach has 2 more years no matter what. A post like this does nothing but create negativity in the fanbase. Now if we are still bad next year with a year to learn the system AND a spring practice and players not quitting then I could understand a post like this. But given the situation, this thread is crap.

AMEN Thanks
11-28-2020, 11:13 PM
Todd4State

Quote:

Originally Posted by msstate7

We've clearly been better the last few years.

Did you (or anyone here) say OM had passed us as a program preseason? No

Have they? It took us losing how many players for them to beat us today?
11-28-2020, 11:16 PM
Cowbell

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matt3467

I respect C34 and usually always enjoy reading his takes but it's clear here that he and plenty others on this board have an ax to grind with Leach. I really don't think they want him to succeed. Regardless of how our record is at the end of the year this year has been the most difficult year in the history of MSU football and it's much more difficult for us than probably any other D1 team I know of with covid, culture, opt-outs, tap outs combined. I don't always agree that moral victories are good but in this case I'm very happy with what I see. I believe that 3 years from now barring any more virus issues that we will be very good.

It's not that there's an ac to grind. But it's clear that our offense is very limited and not because of talent. That's only obvious to those that want to see it. Hopefully adaptations are part of the offseason.
11-28-2020, 11:17 PM
Todd4State

And about Dan Mullen- if the season ended today offensively we would have averaged as many points as Dan's offense did against SEC opponents in 2010 and 2011. I'm only using SEC opponents since that's all Leach has to play in year one. Since everyone felt so good about Dan's offense in 2009.
11-28-2020, 11:19 PM
Todd4State

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cowbell

It's not that there's an ac to grind. But it's clear that our offense is very limited and not because of talent. That's only obvious to those that want to see it. Hopefully adaptations are part of the offseason.

So- in theory our offense will be the same when Leach gets upperclass players and more players that fit his system? Correct?

This despite players running open on every play.
11-28-2020, 11:21 PM
Todd4State

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cowbell

You don't pay 5 mil for a 7-8 win ceiling

So we should pay even more for coaches? The 5 million dollar thing is absolutely irrelevant and ridiculous.

We're not paying 5 million for one season. We're paying 5 million for long term overall success.
11-28-2020, 11:24 PM
the_real_MSU_is_us

Quote:

Originally Posted by msstate7

We've clearly been better the last few years.

Did you (or anyone here) say OM had passed us as a program preseason? No

I'm sorry, what about last years 1 point win because of a missed extra point means we were "clearly better"? We were better the 3 years before that. But we aren't the better PROGRAM.

A team can go up and down year to year. A program includes national perception, prestige, ability to attract a good coach, recruiting, facilities, and yes, wins. We've only been better than them recently in wins. Was 2019 Auburn the better program than 2019 Bama? No, but Auburn was able to win because teams change year to year.

Well, State never really separated from OM. We were relatively up with Jackie, we were relatively down withCroom, we were relatively up till Freeze got things going, both programs skyrocketed to even heights in '13-'15, and Om fell off about 2 wins a year relative to us for a few years after that. Now JoMo created a soft culture Leach had to fix, and Luke left Kiffin no such issues and a lot of talent on O.

We're the same. '16 we beat them but the overall W-L's were the same. '17 we lost but had the better team. '18 we beat them and had the better team. Last year we essentially tied and had even teams. This year we have even teams and a fumble was the difference in the game. Nothing about our recent relative program success over them is drastic enough to make us a better PROGRAM overall to a level where OM can't ever beat us.
11-28-2020, 11:24 PM
BeardoMSU

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cowbell

You don't pay 5 mil for a 7-8 win ceiling

How much were we paying Dan when he left, and how much did we offer him to stay? And what was his yearly avg in wins?
11-28-2020, 11:26 PM
Cowbell

Quote:

Originally Posted by Todd4State

So we should pay even more for coaches? The 5 million dollar thing is absolutely irrelevant and ridiculous.

We're not paying 5 million for one season. We're paying 5 million for long term overall success.

Todd go back read the context / he was talking down the road.
11-28-2020, 11:26 PM
Percho

Quote:

Originally Posted by msstate7

We've clearly been better the last few years.

Did you (or anyone here) say OM had passed us as a program preseason? No

At the end of last year's game with OM did you think we would beat OM this year? What about when we retained JOMO?

Did your opinion change the day we hired ML?

Did it change again?

What were your expectations this morning relative to today's game?
11-28-2020, 11:27 PM
Cowbell

Quote:

Originally Posted by BeardoMSU

How much were we paying Dan when he left, and how much did we offer him to stay? And what was his yearly avg in wins?

We aren't talking average. We are talking ceiling
11-28-2020, 11:29 PM
Cowbell

Quote:

Originally Posted by Todd4State

So- in theory our offense will be the same when Leach gets upperclass players and more players that fit his system? Correct?

This despite players running open on every play.

I'm taking scheme and play calling. There is not enough deception in this offense to slow down fast defenses. It will have to be adjusted to do anything memorable here. But I love our young players.
11-28-2020, 11:29 PM
the_real_MSU_is_us

Quote:

Originally Posted by BeardoMSU

How much were we paying Dan when he left, and how much did we offer him to stay? And what was his yearly avg in wins?

If anyone's wondering we matched Florida's $6M offer.

Some people are still suck in old ways. Coaching salaries have been booming for a while. Stop thinking of what a coach "deserves" to get paid or you'll always be shaking your head at how much a given coach is underperforming. The reality is the difference between a 6 win and an 8 win coach is several millions in value ot the athletic program, let alone the local economy. THAT'S why the salaries keep booming, you can't afford to not pay them
11-28-2020, 11:31 PM
Percho

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cowbell

It's not that there's an ac to grind. But it's clear that our offense is very limited and not because of talent. That's only obvious to those that want to see it. Hopefully adaptations are part of the offseason.

It's limited because of Fr LT Fr QB Fr WR Fr RB's and because of reps at practice.
11-28-2020, 11:31 PM
the_real_MSU_is_us

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cowbell

We aren't talking average. We are talking ceiling

Dan won 10 games once, Jackie won 10 games once, and Leach has won 11 and 10 games a his previous 2 stops.

So yeah, I'd say our ceiling under Leach is about the same as our ceiling always has been

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