The wheels are falling off....

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Originally Posted by Jarius

Lord have mercy guy. You think everyone in America didn’t try drop 8 on Leach before this year? Do you honestly think he is facing a different defense right now than he has faced the past 20 years? Do you really think that his teams at Texas Tech or Washington State could not put up a shit ton of yards and points on the Vanderbilt defense we played last weekend? We suck right now because we have 4 years worth of players on our roster recruited to a run heavy scheme on top of no spring training during a total offensive Overhaul. We may never be great but we are awful because of those reasons. Thinking the system has been figured out so well that garbage teams like Vandy can now stop it with garbage athletes every year is probably the absolute dumbest take on this site, and that is saying something.

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Thank you for being a voice of reason on here.

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Originally Posted by Jarius

Lord have mercy guy. You think everyone in America didn?t try drop 8 on Leach before this year? Do you honestly think he is facing a different defense right now than he has faced the past 20 years? Do you really think that his teams at Texas Tech or Washington State could not put up a shit ton of yards and points on the Vanderbilt defense we played last weekend? We suck right now because we have 4 years worth of players on our roster recruited to a run heavy scheme on top of no spring training during a total offensive Overhaul. We may never be great but we are awful because of those reasons. Thinking the system has been figured out so well that garbage teams like Vandy can now stop it with garbage athletes every year is probably the absolute dumbest take on this site, and that is saying something.

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If his offense is so outdated, how did he win 11 games just two years ago? He beat Oregon by 14, won at Stanford, and lost at USC by only 3 points. Those Pac-12 coaches had already faced Leach for years.

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Originally Posted by MedDawg

If his offense is so outdated, how did he win 11 games just two years ago? He beat Oregon by 14, won at Stanford, and lost at USC by only 3 points. Those Pac-12 coaches had already faced Leach for years.

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It's not outdated..... once the players get a grasp of the offense, they'll be able to move the ball faster and keep the defense on their heals. Getting to the LOS faster and snapping the ball will confuse defenses in zone assignments and open up for bigger plays. It'll happen..... it just sucks right now.

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Originally Posted by FISHDAWG

it took 5 Vandy turnovers for us to beat them and I also believed they outgained us ...Everyone has figured out this offense

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Everyone has been running the same defense Leach is facing right now for 20 years. They have figured out that this particular team can’t beat drop 8 coverage. That plan will not work long term against Leach and there are 20 years of proof to back that up. If you think differently you don’t know what you are talking about.

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Originally Posted by MedDawg

If his offense is so outdated, how did he win 11 games just two years ago? He beat Oregon by 14, won at Stanford, and lost at USC by only 3 points. Those Pac-12 coaches had already faced Leach for years.

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You are correct. We have a lot of fans that are mad and justifiably so but they are truly letting their ignorance shine right now.

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Originally Posted by Jarius

Everyone has been running the same defense Leach is facing right now for 20 years. They have figured out that this particular team can?t beat drop 8 coverage. That plan will not work long term against Leach and there are 20 years of proof to back that up. If you think differently you don?t know what you are talking about.

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if this particular team can't beat the drop 8 coverage then why does Leach use the same old game plan ?

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Originally Posted by Jarius

Lord have mercy guy. You think everyone in America didn?t try drop 8 on Leach before this year? Do you honestly think he is facing a different defense right now than he has faced the past 20 years? Do you really think that his teams at Texas Tech or Washington State could not put up a shit ton of yards and points on the Vanderbilt defense we played last weekend? We suck right now because we have 4 years worth of players on our roster recruited to a run heavy scheme on top of no spring training during a total offensive Overhaul. We may never be great but we are awful because of those reasons. Thinking the system has been figured out so well that garbage teams like Vandy can now stop it with garbage athletes every year is probably the absolute dumbest take on this site, and that is saying something.

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Pick the ****ing game that they did. I've watched over 15 WSU games and probably 10 TT and no one tried it until Washington and no one has copied it until this year.

Seriously - tell me the game and i'll pull up highlights or the actual game.

Here is a pro tip - Defensive coordinators are ****ing stubborn as hell. Don't believe me, ask LSU Fans right now.

Why do you think Washington was so successful against him and everyone else wasn't? Because they decided to drop 8 pretty much the entire game. Other teams couldn't do it because their talent was so terrible, but in the SEC even Vandy has NFL players on defense. Well, not this year's Vandy but most years Vandy has a few NFL players on defense.

So instead of spouting bullshit with no facts to support it - point me to a game that the other team played the 3-8 the majority of the game that wasn't Washington, Arkansas, Kentucky and A&M.

Youtube is great, so this shouldn't take long. I'll wait for the game.

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Originally Posted by Jarius

Everyone has been running the same defense Leach is facing right now for 20 years. They have figured out that this particular team can’t beat drop 8 coverage. That plan will not work long term against Leach and there are 20 years of proof to back that up. If you think differently you don’t know what you are talking about.

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This is simply false. I can show you as many games as you want where USC and Oregon would blitz, rush 4 and 5. Let me know and I'll pull up the games. This is simply false.

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Originally Posted by MedDawg

If his offense is so outdated, how did he win 11 games just two years ago? He beat Oregon by 14, won at Stanford, and lost at USC by only 3 points. Those Pac-12 coaches had already faced Leach for years.

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmUAZRWFuVM&t=567s

Go tell me how many times USC dropped 8.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CkkZkDdUA9A

Go tell me how many times Oregon dropped 8.

I'm not lying to y'all, teams kept bringing 4 and 5. Peterson's DC figured it out. No one copied him until this year. Probably because the UW's DC was talking about how easy Leach was to defend and it caught people's attention.

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Originally Posted by HancockCountyDog

This is simply false. I can show you as many games as you want where USC and Oregon would blitz, rush 4 and 5. Let me know and I'll pull up the games. This is simply false.

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If you think this is the first time Leach has faced drop 8 you are a god damn idiot. Oregon ran it almost exclusively during many games against Leach. Multiple teams ran it and he beat it more times than not.

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Originally Posted by Jarius

If you think this is the first time Leach has faced drop 8 you are a god damn idiot. Oregon ran it almost exclusively.

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Do i actually have to go play by play in the video above? Did you watch the damn film? Watch the film above and then come on here and say Oregon dropped 8 every time so I know you are a liar and I can simply ignore you.

I am going to ask one more time. Running the very same plays we have run to date this year, how many points do you believe Leach would score if he were coaching Alabama's players against the teams we have played? What about the drop eights? How much more time would the QB have to throw the ball?

Just flip the talent level and tell me what you think?

The truth is we would maybe be undefeated yet by thin margins and there would be moaning and groaning.

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Originally Posted by Percho

I am going to ask one more time. Running the very same plays we have run to date this year, how many points do you believe Leach would score if he were coaching Alabama's players against the teams we have played? What about the drop eights? How much more time would the QB have to throw the ball?

Just flip the talent level and tell me what you think?

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If that is what it will take to have Leach win at MSU, than we have made a mistake somewhere. No one is upset that we can't beat Bama. I'm concerned that we can't move the ball against A&M, Kentucky, Vandy and Arkansas.

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Originally Posted by HancockCountyDog

Do i actually have to go play by play in the video above? Did you watch the damn film? Watch the film above and then come on here and say Oregon dropped 8 every time so I know you are a liar and I can simply ignore you.

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No, dumbass you don’t. In some games they did not because it was obviously not working. It rarely worked against his offense, so it was rarely used on a large scale. Oregon used it many times as Leach has said himself (And he constantly beat it). When it did work, teams kept running it. This isn’t hard.

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Originally Posted by HancockCountyDog

Pick the ****ing game that they did. I've watched over 15 WSU games and probably 10 TT and no one tried it until Washington and no one has copied it until this year.

Seriously - tell me the game and i'll pull up highlights or the actual game.

Here is a pro tip - Defensive coordinators are ****ing stubborn as hell. Don't believe me, ask LSU Fans right now.

Why do you think Washington was so successful against him and everyone else wasn't? Because they decided to drop 8 pretty much the entire game. Other teams couldn't do it because their talent was so terrible, but in the SEC even Vandy has NFL players on defense. Well, not this year's Vandy but most years Vandy has a few NFL players on defense.

So instead of spouting bullshit with no facts to support it - point me to a game that the other team played the 3-8 the majority of the game that wasn't Washington, Arkansas, Kentucky and A&M.

Youtube is great, so this shouldn't take long. I'll wait for the game.

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wished I could rep this .... most folks here only know what they have heard and take it for gospel without fact checking.... I knew who Leach was and what he's about and still support him even tho I (like many) have doubts ... I (like many here) believe he should get 3 years at minimum ... I (like a few here) don't think he's going to succeed with his current format as it is but just because a few of us aren't yet sold on his offense doesn't make us idiots or doesn't mean we don't know what we are talking about ... HE needs to show us that he can compete against it and don't tell me we don't have the athletes to compete when we have seen the last many years that we DO have the athletes to compete

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Originally Posted by FISHDAWG

wished I could rep this .... most folks here only know what they have heard and take it for gospel without fact checking.... I knew who Leach was and what he's about and still support him even tho I (like many) have doubts ... I (like many here) believe he should get 3 years at minimum ... I (like a few here) don't think he's going to succeed with his current format as it is but just because a few of us aren't yet sold on his offense doesn't make us idiots or doesn't mean we don't know what we are talking about ... HE needs to show us that he can compete against it and don't tell me we don't have the athletes to compete when we have seen the last many years that we DO have the athletes to compete

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Go ahead and rep his ignorance. Watch this video which is literally the first one I pulled up. 34 of the 48 points scored by Washington State were against drop 8 coverage and when they were not in drop 8 they were largely only bringing 4, which is also what we have seen and struggled with this year.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=wjMd0n2_V5Y

Vandy didn't drop 8 to defend? The past is not interesting to what the present is at the moment. Being stubborn and not making offensive adjustments is the problem. I'm not for firing Leach this year and not next year, I just don't see him being at Msu after 4 years.

HailState, I can't wait till he gets his players and we can have spring practice****

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Originally Posted by Jarius

Go ahead and rep his ignorance. Watch this video which is literally the first one I pulled up. 34 of the 48 points scored by Washington State were against drop 8 coverage and when they were not in drop 8 they were largely only bringing 4, which is also what we have seen and struggled with this year.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=wjMd0n2_V5Y

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I only watched two offensive series ... I saw a few 3 man fronts mixed in with mostly 4 man fronts ... occasionally the DE would drop back at the snap. On the second series I saw 4 man fronts almost exclusively .... I saw more much more 4 man than 3 man lines ... you would have thought he would have an answer to it by now

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Originally Posted by FISHDAWG

I only watched two offensive series ... I saw a few 3 man fronts mixed in with mostly 4 man fronts ... occasionally the DE would drop back at the snap. On the second series I saw 4 man fronts almost exclusively .... I saw more much more 4 man than 3 man lines ... you would have thought he would have an answer to it by now

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Almost every score was off the drop 8. That’s why they were not running it. Just watched the 2016 game. They did the same thing. When Oregon dropped 8 Faulk had about 15 seconds to throw the ball, and he either threw the ball to the open man or took off and picked up 7 yards. That coverage works when you can get pressure with your front 3 or 4, but most teams could not and it was too easy for Leach to attack. It is just amazingly arrogant to think that people on this board know more than defensive coordinators who have faced leach for 20 years. Not just some of them, but literally all of them.

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Originally Posted by Jarius

Almost every score was off the drop 8. That’s why they were not running it. Just watched the 2016 game. They did the same thing. When Oregon dropped 8 Faulk had about 15 seconds to throw the ball, and he either threw the ball to the open man or took off and picked up 7 yards. That coverage works when you can get pressure with your front 3 or 4, but most teams could not and it was too easy for Leach to attack. It is just amazingly arrogant to think that people on this board know more than defensive coordinators who have faced leach for 20 years. Not just some of them, but literally all of them.

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I think that is what is going to happen to us going forward. Teams are going to try to drop eight to start and stay with it if it doesn't work. If it doesn't they'll try to disguise it like Vandy did. If that doesn't work they'll try to bring pressure. We know how people are going to attack us- which is a huge advantage for us in the long run. We just have to teach our players to adapt and bring in players that can defeat it.

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Originally Posted by Jarius

No, dumbass you don?t. In some games they did not because it was obviously not working. It rarely worked against his offense, so it was rarely used on a large scale. Oregon used it many times as Leach has said himself (And he constantly beat it). When it did work, teams kept running it. This isn?t hard.

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Show me the game where they did - what year - give me the year and i'll pull up the game.

I thought you said Leach had beaten the 3-8, but now you are saying that he was so successful against it, teams stopped running it? Show me the game where he tore up the 3-8. Just one damn game. I'll wait.

It worked for Washington the last several years to the point the Washington players were laughing about how they knew what was coming;

We could be 4-2 right now instead of being 2-4 by squeaking out 2 not turning over the ball and you all would still be unhappy because we look like crap on offence.

How many coaching hours has Leach had trying to teach this offense which requires many reps to master?

If the defense were as bad as many thought it would be we would be ofer!

Thank God we have two wins.

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Originally Posted by HancockCountyDog

Show me the game where they did - what year - give me the year and i'll pull up the game.

I thought you said Leach had beaten the 3-8, but now you are saying that he was so successful against it, teams stopped running it? Show me the game where he tore up the 3-8. Just one damn game. I'll wait.

It worked for Washington the last several years to the point the Washington players were laughing about how they knew what was coming;

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I just posted a video where his offense scored 34 points on the drop 8 and 48 points total (the remainder were field goals and Oregon rushing 4). You continue to double down on stupid. People ran it against him virtually every single game. He beats it and they get out of it. Oregon drops 8 (and 7 which is what we see every week) and got roasted almost every time they played Leach. Go watch the 2016 game. They rushed 3 or 4 the entire first half and gave up 28 and then started blitzing in the second half. I’m not going to spend my entire day watching film to continue to prove your dumbassery.

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Originally Posted by FISHDAWG

I only watched two offensive series ... I saw a few 3 man fronts mixed in with mostly 4 man fronts ... occasionally the DE would drop back at the snap. On the second series I saw 4 man fronts almost exclusively .... I saw more much more 4 man than 3 man lines ... you would have thought he would have an answer to it by now

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They rush 4 pretty much the whole game. They do drop 8 some, but comparing what we have seen and what Washington has done, is just laughable. We are seeing 3-8 close to 80% of the time and we can't solve it. Same way he couldn't solve it against Washington.

Show me the game where he has solved the 3-8 that we have seen?

I'll be waiting a while;

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Originally Posted by HancockCountyDog

They rush 4 pretty much the whole game. They do drop 8 some, but comparing what we have seen and what Washington has done, is just laughable. We are seeing 3-8 close to 80% of the time and we can't solve it. Same way he couldn't solve it against Washington.

Show me the game where he has solved the 3-8 that we have seen?

I'll be waiting a while;

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They rushed 3 enough to give up 34 points against that exact look in 1 game. A Lot of times it looked like they were coming with 4 and the edge backed off into the flat with the tailback. The reason you don’t see past people running drop 8 80 % of the time is because they were not stupid enough to keep running a coverage that did not work. So yea, the few teams that ran it the entire game succeeded. There is no reason to change if you do not have to. We are also not having any more success when teams rush 4 instead of 3 so this is a moot point. How on earth does this have to be explained to you?

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Originally Posted by HancockCountyDog

They rush 4 pretty much the whole game. They do drop 8 some, but comparing what we have seen and what Washington has done, is just laughable. We are seeing 3-8 close to 80% of the time and we can't solve it. Same way he couldn't solve it against Washington.

Show me the game where he has solved the 3-8 that we have seen?

I'll be waiting a while;

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I think you might have meant this for the Bennie Brown Know-it-All... I was saying the same thing

Look I don't give a rat's ass what he did at Washington St. or TTU. I don't care if they blitzed 8, dropped 8, or dropped 11. That's all in the past and there's a reason why those kids weren't at Bama, LSU, UGA, UF, etc. All that matters is what he's doing here and now. And right now we can't move the ball, we can't block 3 with 5, and on the rare occasion we can actually do that our receivers and QB aren't on the same page about 60% of the time. We have MASSIVE problems that aren't an overnight fix. And I'll be honest I don't know if there is a fix to it. The next two years will be the telltale sign of that. By Year 3, and honestly the end of Year 2, if we're still having the same problems then a new AD will probably be having a very tough conversation with Mike Leach. I say new AD because Cohen will be the first to go if this thing continues to go south.

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Originally Posted by Jarius

I just posted a video where his offense scored 34 points on the drop 8 and 48 points total (the remainder were field goals and Oregon rushing 4). You continue to double down on stupid. People ran it against him virtually every single game. He beats it and they get out of it. Oregon drops 8 (and 7 which is what we see every week) and got roasted almost every time they played Leach. Go watch the 2016 game. They rushed 3 or 4 the entire first half and gave up 28 and then started blitzing in the second half. I?m not going to spend my entire day watching film to continue to prove your dumbassery.

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Ok - I just went and watched the first half of the video that you posted the 2015 WSU/Oregon game.

Oregon rushed 3 men 9 times.

Oregon rushed 4 men 30 times.

Your point about us seeing teams drop 7 against us is just a lie. Do i actually need to post the Kentucky and Arkansas game film? Really?

Show me the game where the defense dropped 8 and rushed 3 the majority of the game, like Washington, Arkansas, and Kentucky and how Leach tore it up. I'm waiting;

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Originally Posted by FISHDAWG

I think you might have meant this for the Bennie Brown Know-it-All... I was saying the same thing

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My bad - I just hate when people flat out lie. WSU only faced the 3-8 in the PAC 12 in the Apple Cup;

Here is what it looks like - look familiar to anyone?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qPUFaJtI6mM

I mean seriously - watch this video and tell me we aren't seeing the exact same defense, every damn week;

I mean the 4th and 1 play calls even look identical;

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Originally Posted by HancockCountyDog

Ok - I just went and watched the first half of the video that you posted the 2015 WSU/Oregon game.

Oregon rushed 3 men 9 times.

Oregon rushed 4 men 30 times.

Your point about us seeing teams drop 7 against us is just a lie. Do i actually need to post the Kentucky and Arkansas game film? Really?

Show me the game where the defense dropped 8 and rushed 3 the majority of the game, like Washington, Arkansas, and Kentucky and how Leach tore it up. I'm waiting;

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I can’t post one because when they give up 34 points in one game off of the same look they generally don’t continue to use that look. You can keep spouting the same ignorance and I’m going to keep telling you the same thing. People don’t Generally continue to Run the same thing when you torch them against that look. Arizona tried to drop 8 some and they got their ass lit up too. Look at them against Minshew. Why on earth would you continue to do what is not working unless you are Bo Pelini?

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Originally Posted by HancockCountyDog

My bad - I just hate when people flat out lie. WSU only faced the 3-8 in the PAC 12 in the Apple Cup;

Here is what it looks like - look familiar to anyone?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qPUFaJtI6mM

I mean seriously - watch this video and tell me we aren't seeing the exact same defense, every damn week;

I mean the 4th and 1 play calls even look identical;

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They only faced it the entire game against them because that was the only defense that stopped them with that look you ****ing idiot.

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Originally Posted by Jarius

They only faced it the entire game against them because that was the only defense that stopped them with that look you ****ing idiot.

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They were the only team that tried it the entire game - which game did they run more 3-8 than rush 4, give me one game.

The game you posted - they rushed 4 thirty times in the first half compared to rushing 3 nine times. Do i really have to do the 2016 game as well?

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Originally Posted by HancockCountyDog

They were the only team that tried it the entire game - which game did they run more 3-8 than rush 4, give me one game.

The game you posted - they rushed 4 thirty times in the first half compared to rushing 3 nine times. Do i really have to do the 2016 game as well?

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They were the only team that tried it the entire game because they were the only team that had success with it when they ran it. If Leach would have had the same success against Washington as he did against every other team when they gave him that look they would have moved out of that look just like everyone else did. You can’t seriously be this dense. You really believe everyone had the same success as Washington did with that look and just chose not to run it.

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Originally Posted by Jarius

I can’t post one because when they give up 34 points in one game off of the same look they generally don’t continue to use that look. You can keep spouting the same ignorance and I’m going to keep telling you the same thing. People don’t Generally continue to Run the same thing when you torch them against that look. Arizona tried to drop 8 some and they got their ass lit up too. Look at them against Minshew. Why on earth would you continue to do what is not working unless you are Bo Pelini?

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Show me the video of them tearing up the 3-8 for a quarter. Just ripping it to shreds. It doesn't exist I've looked. The only video you posted had Oregon rushing 4 thirty times as opposed to 3 nine times. Show me the game where he tore it up, when those numbers are reversed.

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Originally Posted by Jarius

They were the only team that tried it the entire game because they were the only team that had success with it when they ran it. If Leach would have had the same success against Washington as he did against every other team when they gave him that look they would have moved out of that look just like everyone else did. You can’t seriously be this dense.

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Show me the game where he tore up the 3-8. Which team stuck with it like Washington, Kentucky, or Arkansas? Almost every game I've watched the teams rushed 4 and 5 consistently. The games I've posted clearly show that, I'm waiting for your video where he is ripping up the 3-8.

I just showed you a video where they scored 34 points against that look. The only time the ran that look WSU scores a touchdown. Wtf is wrong with you?

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Originally Posted by Jarius

I just showed you a video where they scored 34 points against that look. The only time the ran that look WSU scores a touchdown. Wtf is wrong with you?

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This is the only video you posted in this entire thread

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=wjMd0n2_V5Y

If you have posted another - let me know.

This is the one where they rushed 4 thirty times and rushed 3 only 9 times in the first half; They continue to rush 4 in the second half; They rushed 4 the majority of the game. They rushed 3 a handful of times. Sometimes it looked exactly like us, other times they had some success, but Oregon did not commit to it. Where do you think they scored 34 points against the 3-8 in this video that you posted? I mean they almost exclusively rushed 4 guys.

If you are claiming that they were just so successful against the 3-8 that the defense was forced to rush 4, then that is simply Pelini logic. If that 2015 Oregon/WSU game is the evidence that you have that Leach has beaten the 3-8, then you simply have no idea what you are talking about - and you can have the last word.

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Originally Posted by HancockCountyDog

This is the only video you posted in this entire thread

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=wjMd0n2_V5Y

If you have posted another - let me know.

This is the one where they rushed 4 thirty times and rushed 3 only 9 times in the first half; They continue to rush 4 in the second half; They rushed 4 the majority of the game. They rushed 3 a handful of times. Sometimes it looked exactly like us, other times they had some success, but Oregon did not commit to it. Where do you think they scored 34 points against the 3-8 in this video that you posted? I mean they almost exclusively rushed 4 guys.

If you are claiming that they were just so successful against the 3-8 that the defense was forced to rush 4, then that is simply Pelini logic. If that 2015 Oregon/WSU game is the evidence that you have that Leach has beaten the 3-8, then you simply have no idea what you are talking about - and you can have the last word.

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On the play that WSU scored touchdowns they were facing a drop 8 look for 34 of their points. I have said this about 7 times in this thread. They only ran it the amount of times you are talking about because every time they did WSU scored a ****ing touchdown. Do I need to rearrange this post another way so you can comprehend it?

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Originally Posted by Jarius

They were the only team that tried it the entire game because they were the only team that had success with it when they ran it. If Leach would have had the same success against Washington as he did against every other team when they gave him that look they would have moved out of that look just like everyone else did. You can’t seriously be this dense. You really believe everyone had the same success as Washington did with that look and just chose not to run it.

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This is my thinking as well. If Washington shut it down for 8 straight years, surely other teams would have tried it too. It's dumb to think otherwise. And no, I'm not going to waste my time watching WSU games. Lolz