One thing I can assure you...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Liverpooldawg

Agree on that...…except that there are other, better, coaches than Leach who could make it work here. Now getting them here is another story. Also, Dabo is NOT more with less. Those are damn talented teams.

---

a) Dabo started out as a more with less dude. Now he is a more with more dude. And his staff is phenomenal.
b) Name some coaches that you think would produce really great drop back passing teams at MSU?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Liverpooldawg

Go look at who has hired him and their situations when they did.

---

Well that is irrelevant to US today. That is what you falsely alluded to. That we made a desperate hire...you couldn’t be more incorrect.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dawgday166

a) Dabo started out as a more with less dude. Now he is a more with more dude. And his staff is phenomenal.
b) Name some coaches that you think would produce really great drop back passing teams at MSU?

---

A) Not really. He got good when he started recruiting like he does now. They upped their game there.
B) Saban. I know he isn't running it now, but he would be good no matter what. There are others. I DID say Getting them would be a problem, lol.
Its the drop back, lack of running , and absolutely ZERO defense that concerns me.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Really Clark?

Well that is irrelevant to US today. That is what you falsely alluded to. That we made a desperate hire...you couldn’t be more incorrect.

---

LOL, ok. It's not relevant, that answered me that did!

Ok, I've vented. Hopefully y'all are right and I'm dead wrong. We will all be very happy that way. In fact, we will all be very unhappy, me included, if I'm right.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Liverpooldawg

Ok, I've vented. Hopefully y'all are right and I'm dead wrong. We will all be very happy that way. In fact, we will all be very unhappy, me included, if I'm right.

---

Didn't you want to keep JoMo?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Liverpooldawg

LOL, ok. It's not relevant, that answered me that did!

---

Dude your cheese has slipped off the cracker. We didn’t make a desperate hire no matter how many times you say it. That’s ignorance and just what you hope would happen. Like the rest of your outdated and uninformed thinking. But to push it even further, locally, regionally, and nationally NOBODY is considering this hire as a desperate hire by Cohen. Find one actual informed pundit, media, coach that said we made a desperate hire. It’s not true but in your feeble mind.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Liverpooldawg

A) Not really. He got good when he started recruiting like he does now. They upped their game there.
B) Saban. I know he isn't running it now, but he would be good no matter what. There are others. I DID say Getting them would be a problem, lol.
Its the drop back, lack of running , and absolutely ZERO defense that concerns me.

---

Dabo recruiting rankings leading up to his first Natty game in 2016 (2015 season) having Bama on ropes until Saban calls the onside kick with about 5 or so mins left in game (if I recall correctly ... maybe longer). Loses game 45-40.

2011 - 10th
2012 - 20th
2013 - 15th
2014 - 16th (Deshaun Watson 4* QB recruit .. not 5*)
2015 - 9th

You right per usual. Dabo just needs more talent to get to Natty title game.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dawgday166

I've gone on record that next year we were looking at 4 to 6 wins with Moorhead. If we had Mullen ... 6 to 8 and I'd split the middle and say 7. Next year awfully young all over and big turnover on Oline. Young QB (unless KT starts).

I don't know what we're getting but ... I know Leach is better than Moorhead without a doubt. I'm guessing 6 wins ... maybe 7 could be 5.

And I know we're fixing to find out if any offense similar to what Joe ran at PSU will work at MSU cause if someone can make it work ... Leach is one of the few who could.

---

There are almost ZERO similarities in Joe Moorhead's and Leach's offenses

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Spiderman

There are almost ZERO similarities in Joe Moorhead's and Leach's offenses

---

Well..... they are both stubborn

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by defiantdog

Didn't you want to keep JoMo?

---

Joe had to go. The only issue I had was timing. As I have been saying, most of you have no idea what I thought about the actual football this season. I didn't post much about it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Really Clark?

Dude your cheese has slipped off the cracker. We didn’t make a desperate hire no matter how many times you say it. That’s ignorance and just what you hope would happen. Like the rest of your outdated and uninformed thinking. But to push it even further, locally, regionally, and nationally NOBODY is considering this hire as a desperate hire by Cohen. Find one actual informed pundit, media, coach that said we made a desperate hire. It’s not true but in your feeble mind.

---

OK. As I said, I've vented. I'm still involved it in the Coach 34 thread a bit. I'm about to quit it there too. I'm going to get behind the program and hope like heck I'm wrong. I don't want to be right on this at all.
One more comment: The informed pundits, media, and coaches all said that Moorhead was a home run hire. I'd use a different argument If I was you.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Liverpooldawg

Next year has the potential to be one of the worst in MSU history.

---

Or, a really good 9 win year!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Liverpooldawg

A) Not really. He got good when he started recruiting like he does now. They upped their game there.
B) Saban. I know he isn't running it now, but he would be good no matter what. There are others. I DID say Getting them would be a problem, lol.
Its the drop back, lack of running , and absolutely ZERO defense that concerns me.

---

Clemson had the tradition, the money, and everything else to be good. in fact they under achieved for years. they had a natty before Dabo in the modern era.

In fact i will never understand why the SEC took SC instead of Clemson

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by defiantdog

Well..... they are both stubborn

---

Only one has won 139 P5 games as a HC

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Spiderman

There are almost ZERO similarities in Joe Moorhead's and Leach's offenses

---

Well ... you know more about this than I do but seems like they're both drop back passing schemes. But Leach's is simplified with quick throws, no check-with-me, etc. C34 making case (and I can see that side) about SEC speed, man-to-man coverage, etc.

So to me ... if Leach can't succeed pretty good with his scheme then we need to quit aspiring to Brady's, Sark's, etc and stick with a power spread game. What say you?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dawgday166

Well ... you know more about this than I do but seems like they're both drop back passing schemes. But Leach's is simplified with quick throws, no check-with-me, etc. C34 making case (and I can see that side) about SEC speed, man-to-man coverage, etc.

So to me ... if Leach can't succeed pretty good with his scheme then we need to quit aspiring to Brady's, Sark's, etc and stick with a power spread game. What say you?

---

Moorhead was more RPO with some dreaded West Coast principles. A lot more complicated on the reads and preparation.

Plus his screen game was basically non existent

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Really Clark?

Dude your cheese has slipped off the cracker. We didn’t make a desperate hire no matter how many times you say it. That’s ignorance and just what you hope would happen. Like the rest of your outdated and uninformed thinking. But to push it even further, locally, regionally, and nationally NOBODY is considering this hire as a desperate hire by Cohen. Find one actual informed pundit, media, coach that said we made a desperate hire. It’s not true but in your feeble mind.

---

Since you asked.......

https://amp.usatoday.com/amp/4424251002

As I said I'm done with it. I just posted this because the guy asked. Argue with Wolken, not me.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Liverpooldawg

Since you asked.......

https://amp.usatoday.com/amp/4424251002

As I said I'm done with it. I just posted this because the guy asked. Argue with Wolken, not me.

---

You do know that Wolken has a personal dislike for Leach since Leach called him out a while back, don't you? Wolken hates Leach

Leach is a good offensive coach. Nobody can deny that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Spiderman

You do know that Wolken has a personal dislike for Leach since Leach called him out a while back, don't you? Wolken hates Leach

---

No idea. I don't pay attention to the media much. Someone sent me that and the reason I posted it was the reason stated.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Liverpooldawg

It may eventually. Joe did not work here, mainly because the personnel we usually get didn't mesh with his scheme. That goes triple for Leach. Hopefully he can change that personnel mix to fit him. The next few years are probably going to be rough. I'd say next year at best is a wash.

---

Joe didn't work here mainly because he did a shitty job, not because of his scheme. His scheme didn't help, but he didn't need new personnel to avoid delay of game penalties on the first offensive play from scrimmage. He needed new coaching.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Liverpooldawg

Since you asked.......

https://amp.usatoday.com/amp/4424251002

As I said I'm done with it. I just posted this because the guy asked. Argue with Wolken, not me.

---

Well Wolken is as clueless as you and has a personal dislike for Leach. The title of the piece starts, opinion. But you did find one so congrats. The timeline doesn’t work that way since we had to reshuffle the deck first of the week because of Judge taking the Giants job and we hire Leach on Thur officially. We had Sark, Grantham for sure lined up to take our job and what ever was going on with Napier. Desperation is us being turned down by 5-6 guys and hiring Chizik, that would have been a desperation hire

Our offense will not be full air raid next season but it will be way better then if we kept Moorhead.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MoreCowbell

Posters usually don?t bother me but you?re an exception. You are just being negative to be different. Chill out, either way you slice it this is a hood hire for us because EVERYONE is talking about it.

---

It's the often wrong, never a shred of uncertainty approach.

Just got proven wrong that we wouldn't be able to hire a good coach if we fired Moorhead, and it's just water under the bridge, not a moment's reflection of how he could be so wrong and whether he should reconsider anything. It's just spin it to, "only desperate schools are willing to hire a P5 coach that has blown away the historica averages at two schools like TTU and WSU."

I am concerned about Leach's offense against SEC DL because I remember Ole Miss destroying one of his better teams, and while that DL was really good even for an SEC team, we'll see one to three every year that are pretty close to that. But I'm not delusional enough to think that one data point is all I need to be certain. And I'm certainly not going to extrapolate from that to think that we can't beat OOC and weak SEC teams with it.

Next year is going to be a struggle. It was with any coach and Leach's style will probably make it more so for him. But we've got pretty good QB prospects (if they stay) and what should be average SEC receivers coming up through the ranks. That should be good enough to have us back to the Mullen style 6-8 wins depending on competition in 2021 while personnel flips over.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dawgday166

I've been sold on Leach and excited and real curious to see how it turns out. But 10 wins ain't happening with Dabo coaching next year. We don't need to get too carried away with those types of numbers.

---

I don't at all think we will win 10 games next year...but Leach is probably more likely to do it than Dabo. Dabo is more of a program-builder, which takes time; Leach can beat you with scheme. Dabo is the better coach long-term, but Leach can potentially get you more results right away.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Liverpooldawg

It may eventually. Joe did not work here, mainly because the personnel we usually get didn't mesh with his scheme.

---

No. Moorhead did not work because he is not a good head coach. Had nothing to do with the fit for his offense.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Liverpooldawg

Go look at who has hired him and their situations when they did.

---

Texas Tech wasn't in a place of desperation when they hired Leach.

But yes, teams have been reluctant to hire him. Why? Because he is weird and different and it seems risky for an AD and a school because he is seen as a wild card, loose cannon and is in no way what you picture when you think of a football coach.

You know what Texas Tech and Washington State are? Really freaking happy they hired Mike Leach.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by smootness

No. Moorhead did not work because he is not a good head coach. Had nothing to do with the fit for his offense.

---

This. It was more than just scheme and offense, the man totally lost control of the players and the program. The undisciplined, unprepared way we came out each week, the fights, the suspensions, the cheating, the culture was eroding swiftly and a change had to be made.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by smootness

I don't at all think we will win 10 games next year...but Leach is probably more likely to do it than Dabo. Dabo is more of a program-builder, which takes time; Leach can beat you with scheme. Dabo is the better coach long-term, but Leach can potentially get you more results right away.

---

I may tend to agree with you. I'm not sure where this mindset with our fans has suddenly showed up where every year, regardless, is a 9 or 10 win season. Most years 8 maybe 9 are tops. Floor is 5 to 6. Next year typical year ... 5 to 8 IMO. Depends a lot on Leach's staff and how his 1st year implementation goes.

Our roster next year has a bunch of 1st time starters on Oline

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Johnson85

It's the often wrong, never a shred of uncertainty approach.

Just got proven wrong that we wouldn't be able to hire a good coach if we fired Moorhead, and it's just water under the bridge, not a moment's reflection of how he could be so wrong and whether he should reconsider anything. It's just spin it to, "only desperate schools are willing to hire a P5 coach that has blown away the historica averages at two schools like TTU and WSU."

I am concerned about Leach's offense against SEC DL because I remember Ole Miss destroying one of his better teams, and while that DL was really good even for an SEC team, we'll see one to three every year that are pretty close to that. But I'm not delusional enough to think that one data point is all I need to be certain. And I'm certainly not going to extrapolate from that to think that we can't beat OOC and weak SEC teams with it.

Next year is going to be a struggle. It was with any coach and Leach's style will probably make it more so for him. But we've got pretty good QB prospects (if they stay) and what should be average SEC receivers coming up through the ranks. That should be good enough to have us back to the Mullen style 6-8 wins depending on competition in 2021 while personnel flips over.

---

I think we should all know by now that bowl games can be a crap shoot in terms of team motivation. TT had gone thru the emotional wringer of having upset #1 Texas in one of the best games of the decade, then failed against OK to lock down the Big 12 title (playing 4 straight Top 20 teams in the process), and had been ranked higher than had been since the days of Steve Sloan at the helm. They were a lot like UGA against Texas last year - spent, didn't want to be there, and playing a team on a high after a rivalry beat down.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Liverpooldawg

Speaking of Arkansas. Case study in the wrong personnel for a pass happy offense..

---

Yet the only time they've had success recently was...when they threw the ball all over the place. Tried Bielema and his run-based attack and it was a disaster, too. Perhaps Arkansas just isn't good. And LOL on thinking Chad Morris is some sort of litmus test on whether a passing attack will work.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dawgday166

I may tend to agree with you. I'm not sure where this mindset with our fans has suddenly showed up where every year, regardless, is a 9 or 10 win season. Most years 8 maybe 9 are tops. Floor is 5 to 6. Next year typical year ... 5 to 8 IMO. Depends a lot on Leach's staff and how his 1st year implementation goes.

Our roster next year has a bunch of 1st time starters on Oline

---

I have said I think he'll win at least 5 games. If I had to put money on it, I'd probably predict us to go to a bowl. Beyond that, anything could happen. I would be shocked if we won more than 7, though.

I still think we only get 7 wins next year, maybe 8..... getting a new coach with an entirely new system takes time for a team to adjust to...... plus we're losing key players on both sides of the ball.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by smootness

No. Moorhead did not work because he is not a good head coach. Had nothing to do with the fit for his offense.

---

Correct ... Liver won't admit it tho. Leach can coach FOOTBALL Moorhead is a scheme designer at best.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Liverpooldawg

You need to learn how to read.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Liverpooldawg

4 tops. I'll be very happy if I'm wrong!

---

F

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Liverpooldawg

I said 5-6 under Joe. 3-4 now. The personnel is just not a match. It wasn't a match for Joe and it's even less of one for Leach.

---

U

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Liverpooldawg

We will struggle to get the OOC games next year.

---

C

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Liverpooldawg

Next year has the potential to be one of the worst in MSU history.

---

K
You

I read just fine. You said 4-3 wins. You said Worst season ever (Which is 0 wins), We would lose our OOC games
When I gave examples of how wrong you were and said we?d average7+, you said I couldn?t read.

I think you have gone senile.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BrunswickDawg

I think we should all know by now that bowl games can be a crap shoot in terms of team motivation. TT had gone thru the emotional wringer of having upset #1 Texas in one of the best games of the decade, then failed against OK to lock down the Big 12 title (playing 4 straight Top 20 teams in the process), and had been ranked higher than had been since the days of Steve Sloan at the helm. They were a lot like UGA against Texas last year - spent, didn't want to be there, and playing a team on a high after a rivalry beat down.

---

They beat UM in 2 regular season match ups during Cutcliff and Eli days, including the 10-3 season of 2003. They scored 42 and 49 points those 2 seasons. That was a good OM team. They lost 13-10 to the 2005 # 8 Alabama team in the Cotton Bowl.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by smootness

I have said I think he'll win at least 5 games. If I had to put money on it, I'd probably predict us to go to a bowl. Beyond that, anything could happen. I would be shocked if we won more than 7, though.

---

Agree with this too. That's my thinking going into next year with Leach, Napier, or Sark.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by smootness

I have said I think he'll win at least 5 games. If I had to put money on it, I'd probably predict us to go to a bowl. Beyond that, anything could happen. I would be shocked if we won more than 7, though.

---

Agreed. We have to be realistic and give him a chance. I could see 6 wins and a bowl but more than that is probably a stretch. If we win more than 6 I'll be ecstatic.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Really Clark?

They beat UM in 2 regular season match ups during Cutcliff and Eli days, including the 10-3 season of 2003. They scored 42 and 49 points those 2 seasons. That was a good OM team. They lost 13-10 to the 2005 # 8 Alabama team in the Cotton Bowl.

---

Good stuff. Also good examples of why cherry picking a single game to reflect an entire career is dumb.