Game of Thrones

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Originally Posted by Uncle Ruckus

Just thought of something, wtf is up with Dorne? They were in one episode. I really want the 'bad poosy' and the other ****s to die. I'd be fine with that being the last we ever see of them though.

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I'm starting to think Dorne's importance has been drastically reduced for the TV show. One of those book/tv divergences we've talked about at length. Kinda had to figure it when they announced they weren't casting Ariane and Quentyn, plus killing Myrcella. Elaria got at least part of her revenge and now rules Dorne with the Sand Snakes. Relatively tidy place to leave them. Or they'll show up out of the blue and tip the scales of a crucial battle to help unite Westeros in time to fight The Others/White Walkers.

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Originally Posted by War Machine Dawg

Ho. Lee. Shit. I've never thought of that angle. We all assume that Jon was an only child and Lyanna forced Ned to raise Jon as his own, because she knew Robert would kill any child of Rhaegar's, even if it was her child as well. But who the hell would a twin be? Certainly not Dany. It's very much established she's Rhaegar's sister. And there's no one floating around with any of the classic Stark physical features that seems to be important. You also would have to assume Howland Reed took the other kid and dropped it off with a different noble family. But there's no hint of an unexplained adoption or bastard for the important houses, other than Jon. We need Bear to weigh in on this theory. It's making my mind hurt.

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The popular twin theory is that it is Meera. Ned takes one kid and Howland Reed the other.

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Originally Posted by War Machine Dawg

I'm starting to think Dorne's importance has been drastically reduced for the TV show. One of those book/tv divergences we've talked about at length. Kinda had to figure it when they announced they weren't casting Ariane and Quentyn, plus killing Myrcella. Elaria got at least part of her revenge and now rules Dorne with the Sand Snakes. Relatively tidy place to leave them. Or they'll show up out of the blue and tip the scales of a crucial battle to help unite Westeros in time to fight The Others/White Walkers.

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Is it possible that is where Dany lands in Westeros and Dorne embrace her as their queen? Elaria made it a point to say that women would rule Dorne now. Other than Bronne interacting with the Sand Snake that place was a time waste. The show butchered that story line and made it unbearable to watch.

Probably the best episode of the show. Just wish Ramsey died a little slower

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Originally Posted by msstate7

Probably the best episode of the show. Just wish Ramsey died a little slower

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I wanted Sansa to flay him alive but I'll take it

I think it was fitting especially since he thought his dogs obeyed him no matter what. Sansa flipped his dog Reek and his other hounds.

Amazing episode. Next week is going to be intents as well. There's going to be a handful of regular's that meet their makers. Hopefully we'll get to see Nymeria again in the Twins.

What happened to Ghost?

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Originally Posted by BSME04

What happened to Ghost?

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CGI budget for the episode was used up. Only partial ******

Damn what an episode! It was even better than I'd anticipated. So much happened, even though it only focused on 2 of the major house players:

1. Dany is finally able to control her dragons. Possibly the biggest development of the episode, imo, but the least noticed. Gotta figure dragon fire is gonna be crucial when it's time to fight The Others.

2. Dany has her fleet and Asha/Yara a badass ally in retaking the Iron Islands. But am I the only one who thinks the Ironborn are gonna have trouble adjusting to a new way of life? Don't see the Reaving and Raiding stopping just because Asha/Yara says so. Nice to see Theon getting himself back in the game. Also, how badass are the Dothraki and sellsword forces?

3. The Starks have reclaimed Winterfell!!!!! It's what we've all been waiting for and it's finally happened.

4. Rickon bites the dust. I thought Ramsey was going to turn the dogs loose and have them chase him down. But doing the deed personally with arrows? Holy. Shit.

5. Even after Sansa warns Jon about Ramsey, the dummy does EXACTLY what Ramsey wants. And the last giant paid the price for his stupidity. Whole lotta Wildllings died, too. They were already a pretty damn small force.

6. Loved Jon beating the hell out of Ramsey.

7. Sansa has learned well. She's going to be a legit player going forward. Turning Ramsey's dogs on him was a fitting, and may I say epic, end for him. Hungry dogs are not loyal dogs. That's even more sadistic than I'd imagined for her.

8. You had to figure Littlefinger and the Vale would be a factor at some point. Perfectly timed arrival to save Jon's ass after he played right into Ramsey's hands.

Questions after tonight:

1. How long until Dany comes to Westeros? She's got her fleet, the Unsullied, the Dothraki, the sellsword forces, and her dragons. Don't know what's left for her in Essos now that she's firmly taken control from the Masters. Does she dare go to Valyria and see if there's anything left worth recovering after the Doom?

2. What deal did Sansa make with Littlefinger? As I've said before, I have no doubt that Littlefinger truly wants to help Sansa and do right by her. But the problem is that Littlefinger will always look after Littlefinger first and foremost. Therefore, I can't imagine him not wanting SOMETHING from Sansa after she rejected his alliance earlier in the season.

3. What shape are the Wildlings going to be in for the real fight? They lost their giant, which is a big blow - literally and figuratively. And they lost a whole lot of fighters outside Winterfell.

4. What role will Tyrion have for Dany moving forward? Does she leave him behind to rule over Meereen? I can't see that. I believe their deal is he helps her and she lets him kill Cersei. Therefore, he must go to Westeros with her.

5. Who rules in Winterfell - Sansa or Jon? Both know the real war is still coming and further north. Does Jon take the Wildlings back to the Wall? Will he rejoin the Watch and let Sansa, the trueborn Stark, rule the North? Or will Jon choose to claim the Stark name and rule himself?

6. What's Davos going to do after discovering the place where Stannis burned his daughter? They didn't put that scene in there for no reason.

7. When is the wildfire in King's Landing going to play a part? They teased us with the story again. Much like the Davos scene, that wasn't mentioned idly.

WMD's comments:

My favorite moment of the night was the scene on the beach between Dany, Tyrion, and her group and The Masters and their group. Tyrion says "We've come to discuss terms of surrender." The Masters laugh and lay out ridiculous terms you knew Dany & Co were never gonna accept. Dany says "We're here to discuss your surrender, not mine." Then Drogon circles overhead and lands behind Dany. The "OH SHIT" look on the face of the three Masters was priceless. They knew they were screwed.

Losing Rickon sucks, but I think we all assumed it was happening. And dammit, it pisses me off that Shaggy really is dead and the Umbers really were traitors. At least I have the real Umbers in the books.

Not Jon's best night. He lets Ramsay play and almost gets trampled to death. At least he got to beat the hell out of Ramsay and recaptured Winterfell. Who's going to replace the gate? Some protective castle with an open entrance for anyone to waltz through unimpeded.

Finally seeing Dany's dragons in action was awesome.

What's left for next week? Do we finally go back to the Tower of Joy? Supposedly there's one more major battle, but I have no idea what it would be. Gotta figure Cersei will be PISSED when she hears the Starks have recaptured the North. Will we finally see what game Margaery is playing with the High Sparrow? What about The Hound and the BWB? Will Arya arrive in Westeros and make an impact? What about Sam and Gilly? Haven't seen them in ages. Ditto the group at the Wall. Brienne and Pod? Do they go to Winterfell? Will we get anymore on the Bran, Benjen, and Meera story?

Hard to believe we're getting so close to the end now. Only two seasons left. And really it's technically one season they're splitting in half, or so I've heard. Episode 9 continues to be the biggest episode of each season so far. If next season is only 8 episodes as is rumored, does that mean Episode 7 will be the big one? Or will they just go all in for a finale?

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Originally Posted by msstate7

Probably the best episode of the show. Just wish Ramsey died a little slower

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Agree.

As much as I hate Ramsey, i definitely appreciate the character. Dude was sick and twisted. Go back and watch the part where he's shooting arrows at Rickon. One of the shots where he misses he just kinda shrugs his shoulders and smirks like it's a game. like he knew all along he would kill Rickon right in front of Jon and make him come charging since he had just seen his brother be murdered after he was so close to being rescued. Ramsey was just playing with Jon. His plan would've worked too, had Sansa, littlefinger, and crew not shown up to save the day.

Someone asked where the wildfire will come into play.

Read a theory the other day that says Cersei will be the one to use the wildfire to burn down King's landing.. said something how she's mentioned on multiple occasions that she would burn the city to the ground to protect Tommen, her last remaining son.

Also read that Jaime may end up killing Cersei to protect King's Landing.

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Originally Posted by louisvilledawg

Agree.

As much as I hate Ramsey, i definitely appreciate the character. Dude was sick and twisted. Go back and watch the part where he's shooting arrows at Rickon. One of the shots where he misses he just kinda shrugs his shoulders and smirks like it's a game. like he knew all along he would kill Rickon right in front of Jon and make him come charging since he had just seen his brother be murdered after he was so close to being rescued. Ramsey was just playing with Jon. His plan would've worked too, had Sansa, littlefinger, and crew not shown up to save the day.

Someone asked where the wildfire will come into play.

Read a theory the other day that says Cersei will be the one to use the wildfire to burn down King's landing.. said something how she's mentioned on multiple occasions that she would burn the city to the ground to protect Tommen, her last remaining son.

Also read that Jaime may end up killing Cersei to protect King's Landing.

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This would make sense because Jaime already killed the king he was sworn to protect for the exact same thing. It would also complete the fortune told to Cersi by Maggie the frog. I definitely thought Ramsay was missing on purpose to get Jon worked up. I think Sansa had this plan all along and was willing to sacrifice Jon to get Winterfell back and defeat Ramsay. I think she learned a lot from Littlefinger and knows how to scheme.

It is going to be interesting that where there was the war of the 5 kings, there may be Queens in there place when everything shakes out. Tommen will die at some point so Margery will be Queen, Elaria has already taken over Dorne, Sansa will now have the North, the Iron Islands will have a Queen, and then Dany coming back to Westeros.

Sansa pissed me off. Just like Ramsay, she needlessly sacrificed a lot of good men. When she criticized Jon for not knowing Ramsay, she couldn't offer any suggestions and didn't tell him about the possibility of being reinforced by the Knights of the Vale. Jon should have executed Ramsay in public like Ned would've done.

Ramsay's cavalry commander was an idiot also. He should've told his men on Ramsay's plan and turned on Ramsay.

Bran is headed to Winterfell in the show. He is Lord of Winterfell and Warden of the North.

So if it is somehow proven that Jon is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna, who has more of a claim to the iron throne? Jon or Dany ?

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Originally Posted by THE Bruce Dickinson

So if it is somehow proven that Jon is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna, who has more of a claim to the iron throne? Jon or Dany ?

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Assuming Rhaegar and Lyanna were married, then Jon would.

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Originally Posted by mcain31

Sansa pissed me off. Just like Ramsay, she needlessly sacrificed a lot of good men. When she criticized Jon for not knowing Ramsay, she couldn't offer any suggestions and didn't tell him about the possibility of being reinforced by the Knights of the Vale. Jon should have executed Ramsay in public like Ned would've done.

Ramsay's cavalry commander was an idiot also. He should've told his men on Ramsay's plan and turned on Ramsay.

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I think Sansa was the more realistic one in this scenario. She may not have known the military tactics, but she knew the adversary. She told Jon that Ramsey would kill Rickon and that Ramsey wouldn't fall for Jon's trap. She also warned Jon that Ramsey would do whatever he could to manipulate Jon into doing what he (Ramsey) wanted him (Jon) to do. Jon did not listen.

As for Sansa not saying anything about the Knights of the Vale, she has grown up. She understands the "Game of Thrones" better than Jon. For her plan to work, she needed Jon to react as he did and fall into Ramsey's trap so all of Ramsey's army could be surrounded at one time. Her ultimate goal was to take back Winterfell and she was willing to do whatever it took to get it back. She has learned well from Littlefinger.

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Originally Posted by msstatelp1

Assuming Rhaegar and Lyanna were married, then Jon would.

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Money is on them being unmarried, though. That would still make Jon a bastard, but he'd be a Blackfyre instead of a Snow. Either way, Jon has the worst claim and worst position to reclaim the Iron Throne. Plus, that story isn't the real story or the real fight. It's all about The Others. Jon is the only one who's been preparing for what really matters. If he survives and The Others are defeated, he may be asked to rule, but he isn't going to do it by playing the "Game of Thrones." And even *if* he's asked to rule, I'd assume it will be with Dany as his sister-wife, according to the Targaryen tradition.

Personally, I'd love to see Jon become the ultimate winner of the Iron Throne. But it just doesn't make any sense. You gotta think of the bigger picture.

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Originally Posted by mcain31

Bran is headed to Winterfell in the show. He is Lord of Winterfell and Warden of the North.

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Except everyone thinks he's dead and Benjen is taking he & Meera further north. He has to become the new Three Eyed Crow. Like Jon, he's not really in position to claim any real Weserosi power.

Not sister-wife, auntie-wife.

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Originally Posted by War Machine Dawg

Except everyone thinks he's dead and Benjen is taking he & Meera further north. He has to become the new Three Eyed Crow. Like Jon, he's not really in position to claim any real Weserosi power.

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I don't think it's been said, or even implied, that they're going farther north. There's really not indication where they're going. I think everyone is assuming they are going south to escape the WW's and get Bran to the wall.

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Originally Posted by War Machine Dawg

Except everyone thinks he's dead and Benjen is taking he & Meera further north. He has to become the new Three Eyed Crow. Like Jon, he's not really in position to claim any real Weserosi power.

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The White Walkers attacked from the North. They had to have headed south. It's where relative safety is

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Originally Posted by Uncle Ruckus

I don't think it's been said, or even implied, that they're going farther north. There's really not indication where they're going. I think everyone is assuming they are going south to escape the WW's and get Bran to the wall.

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GRRM has said several times we'd go farther North this season. Bran needs a place to hide out and explore his greenseer powers. He needs the power of the weirwoods for that. That isn't Winterfell. If he goes back there, he'll be too busy with the mundane, distracting stuff to focus on learning how to harness his powers. They'll find another cave or something to hide in.

Again, you have to think big picture. Who wins the Iron Throne or rules Winterfell is pretty meaningless in the grand scheme of the story. It's fun to talk about, but it won't matter if when the Others/WWs show up they can't be defeated and wipe Men from existence.

Just had a crazy thought. What if Tommen is the cause of Cersi's death? If he orders her death then dies himself. He is the younger brother so the fortune would still hold.

I think if they go the Volanqar rout in the show that that is very possibly, and probably most likely. However, I don't think that they will go that route since they did not have the Volanqar prophecy in the show.

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Originally Posted by War Machine Dawg

GRRM has said several times we'd go farther North this season. Bran needs a place to hide out and explore his greenseer powers. He needs the power of the weirwoods for that. That isn't Winterfell. If he goes back there, he'll be too busy with the mundane, distracting stuff to focus on learning how to harness his powers. They'll find another cave or something to hide in.

Again, you have to think big picture. Who wins the Iron Throne or rules Winterfell is pretty meaningless in the grand scheme of the story. It's fun to talk about, but it won't matter if when the Others/WWs show up they can't be defeated and wipe Men from existence.

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:cool:

Absolutely great episode. I wonder if Bran will tell Jon who his parents are. Jaime definitely looked at Cersi like she was crazy. I really hope Winds of Winter come out soon.

It was a fantastic episode. The last 13 episodes will be crazy

Jaime gonna kill Cersei

Apparently, Jon Snow's true name is Jaehaerys Targaryen

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Originally Posted by mcain31

Apparently, Jon Snow's true name is Jaehaerys Targaryen

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I saw that woman supposedly watched it 50 times to get it right. It was more difficult to read her lips because you could only see from the side. HBO after show also released a graphic that showed his dad was Rhaegar so it is pretty official. The only thing not known is if they were married which would make him a Targeryan rather than a bastard. He would be a Blackfyre if that was the case. Rumor is the Night King was a Blackfyre who became Lord Commander of the Nights Watch.

Sorry it's taken me so long to chime in this week, fellas. Been on vaca with the fam in DC. Just got back last night.

What a damn episode. Ho. Lee. Shit. So much happened to talk about:

Cersei takes out The Faith and all the Tyrells except the Queen of Thorns. Inadvertently causes Tommen's death. Ascends to the Iron Throne as queen. Jaime is gonna kill the bitch at some point. I'm convinced now. I think it'll be The Hound in the books, but it's Jaime in the show. Also, I think this whole plot plays out differently in the books. Honestly, I'm just surprised Cersei didn't burn down the whole city.

Dany and Tyrion were on point. Tyrion's speech about being a cynic but believing in Dany has to hit you in the feels. Interesting to see the Targaryen forces aligning - Dothraki, Unsullied, Dorne, Tyrell. And were Yara & Theon part of the massive fleet? I had a little trouble with that, should probably re-watch that segment. Regardless, Dany is going to steamroll Westeros when she shows up.

Sansa and Jon in the North is intriguing. Lady Mormont continues to be badass. I think Sansa is fine with Jon being Lord of Winterfell, but I'm not sure how long that'll last. Littlefinger was definitely pissed at the end of the episode. At least Sansa saw it and knows he can't be trusted. Gonna be real interested to see what happens with this particular story.

Arya is a beast. Making Walder Frey eat his own sons? Epic! About time she starts making her moves. I could see her taking out Cersei, too. But my money is still on Jaime, for now.

Davos confronts Melisandre. Not sure how I feel about this. What she did was completely awful and she deserves to die. If Jon or Davos had killed her, it would be justice and I'd be ok with it. But she's also the reason Jon is still alive. Part of me is glad she's still alive for the real fight, because she's going to be useful.

Sam and Gilly finally arrived at Old Town. Sam's gonna be real damn disappointed to find out Jon is no longer Lord Commander of the Watch. Wonder if we'll be going back to the Wall next season? That particular part of the story needs some fleshing out.

And finally, the biggest moment of the night: TOJ! We have confirmation that Jon is indeed the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna. Is he a trueborn Targaryen or a Blackfyre? And is his name even Jon? Jon Snow is essentially the Westerosi equivalent of Jon Smith. I'm guessing he has a different name we don't know just yet. And how will he discover who he really is? Will he find Bran and learn it from him? Or will he discover it another way? Here's a pretty cool fan theory of how it could happen differently. Honestly, I would prefer this and would bet this is more likely to happen in the books than TV. Let's talk GoT!

I might be incorrect but didn't Sam go to not only become a Maester but also really to find out whatever he can on the White Walkers? Seems like that was one of the reasons Jon sent him there. That theory on how he will find out makes sense. The only other way I could see it is if we finally meet Howland Reed. If he comes to Winterfell and tells Jon but maybe Littlefinger has a spy that overheard the conversation. That would give him another way to twist things to maybe get on the iron throne.

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Originally Posted by Tbonewannabe

I saw that woman supposedly watched it 50 times to get it right. It was more difficult to read her lips because you could only see from the side. HBO after show also released a graphic that showed his dad was Rhaegar so it is pretty official. The only thing not known is if they were married which would make him a Targeryan rather than a bastard. He would be a Blackfyre if that was the case. Rumor is the Night King was a Blackfyre who became Lord Commander of the Nights Watch.

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Blackfyre was the surname that Daemon after he was legitimized by Aegon IV Targaryen on his deathbed. Before then, he was Daemon Waters. All Blackfyres are Daemon's descendants. Jon is called Snow because bast arts raised in the North use the surname Snow.

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Originally Posted by Tbonewannabe

I might be incorrect but didn't Sam go to not only become a Maester but also really to find out whatever he can on the White Walkers? Seems like that was one of the reasons Jon sent him there. That theory on how he will find out makes sense. The only other way I could see it is if we finally meet Howland Reed. If he comes to Winterfell and tells Jon but maybe Littlefinger has a spy that overheard the conversation. That would give him another way to twist things to maybe get on the iron throne.

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I believe you're correct. That was part of the reason Jon sent Sam to become Maester. He knew they needed all the info they could get on the White Walkers and the best place to find whatever info that's left was the Maesters' Guild in Old Town. But they also desperately need a new Maester to replace Aemon and Sam was the most qualified candidate.

On the fan theory of how Jon discovers his true ancestry, what if the tales of Vermax laying eggs in the Winterfell crypts is true? We know that dragons are asexual/gender fluid, i.e. they are neither male nor female and can be both. Thus why Aemon, shortly before his death, believes the prophecy of TPTWP refers to Dany. Even though Vermax was "male", he still was capable of laying eggs. That being the case, let's make a couple of assumptions:

1. Vermax did, in fact, lay eggs in the Winterfell crypts.

2. The fan theory involving Jon discovering his ancestry in the crypts happens.

Does Jon then also discover Vermax's eggs? Will one or more of the eggs hatch for him? As a Targaryen, we know by birth he is a dragon master. Yes, he has Ghost. But should he not also have at least one dragon? And would you even like for him to have a dragon?

Just some questions I had that I think make for interesting discussion.

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Originally Posted by War Machine Dawg

On the fan theory of how Jon discovers his true ancestry, what if the tales of Vermax laying eggs in the Winterfell crypts is true? We know that dragons are asexual/gender fluid, i.e. they are neither male nor female and can be both. Thus why Aemon, shortly before his death, believes the prophecy of TPTWP refers to Dany. Even though Vermax was "male", he still was capable of laying eggs. That being the case, let's make a couple of assumptions:

1. Vermax did, in fact, lay eggs in the Winterfell crypts.

2. The fan theory involving Jon discovering his ancestry in the crypts happens.

Does Jon then also discover Vermax's eggs? Will one or more of the eggs hatch for him? As a Targaryen, we know by birth he is a dragon master. Yes, he has Ghost. But should he not also have at least one dragon? And would you even like for him to have a dragon?

Just some questions I had that I think make for interesting discussion.

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I believe it takes "fire and blood" to hatch dragon eggs. A life must be sacrificed via fire with the egg for a dragon to hatch.

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Originally Posted by mcain31

I believe it takes "fire and blood" to hatch dragon eggs. A life must be sacrificed via fire with the egg for a dragon to hatch.

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Maybe Melisandre provides both.

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Originally Posted by mcain31

I believe it takes "fire and blood" to hatch dragon eggs. A life must be sacrificed via fire with the egg for a dragon to hatch.

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Not necessarily. I think it depends on the state of the egg(s). We aren't told anything about how dragons hatch or why they hatch. Dany's eggs were supposedly fossilized, thus requiring the extraordinary circumstances of "fire and blood" to activate them. If Vermax's eggs are still viable, then perhaps they'd hatch for a Targaryen naturally. We just don't have enough information to go on to make that sort of guess.

Damn good point, though. Certainly worth discussing. And dammit, we need Bear to get in on this discussion. He's the real theorist of our discussions.

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Originally Posted by msstatelp1

Maybe Melisandre provides both.

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Interesting idea. She might be willing to make that sacrifice to help atone for Shireen, especially if it increases "Jon's" odds of defeating the White Walkers.