Sure we accept...but we dont have to be happy about itQuote:
Originally Posted by TheRef
Sure we accept...but we dont have to be happy about itQuote:
Originally Posted by TheRef
Engie, you are a great poster and I usually agree with most you Post. Butt the constant comparing Ray to Cohen I just don't get. If your defending Ray means you have to throw Cohen in the argument you don't have much. There is a huge difference in Basketball and Baseball. Two elite players can change a shitty basketball team into a good one. Not so in baseball. Ray was a nobody assistant for an average Clemson team. Cohen was an elite Coach who had already won the SEC at a typical SEC doormat team. I never had a doubt JC would take MSU back to the top. I have serious doubt about Rick Ray. Not trying to start a pissing contest, just don't get the comparison.
Just discussing the short term ,but I think Wed vs UGA will be a very very big game for us. We win and I think we can win one or two more in conference. We lose and we are going on the road to Auburn and LSU and probably looking at a 8 game losing streak. Once a team takes that many lumps it is very hard to get them to continue to play hard.Ray will have to continue to find ways to keep the locker room together and not let the wheels fall completely off
The point that you don't get is that you are using hindsight to judge Cohen now and "what you thought would happen" when he was hired -- instead of putting yourself back into the timeframe of those first 2 years where it looked like FAR from a sure thing at times. You either weren't around SPS during the rebuild -- or have just blocked it all from memory. The fact that Cohen had the sterling resume going for him on the front end didn't stop people from flipping out on him during the rebuild. Not just one or two people either -- a sizable faction of the total fanbase. There were people actively campaigning to get Cohen out of here after year 2 -- that were still after Butch's ass until the start of year 4 when the pitching really got going with Stratton's emergence. Just about everyone that was active on message boards during that time "gets" the comparison even if they disagree. Given that Cohen had such a sterling resume and Ray is more of an unknown -- does it not then fit that Rick Ray should get even MORE patience than was afforded Cohen while allowing him the opportunity to prove himself?Quote:
Originally Posted by tcdog70
I disagree that it only takes 2 elite players to turn a bad basketball team into a good one. If that was the case, why aren't LSU and Tennessee in the top 25 and considered tournament locks? Hell, the entire SEC is littered with 5* talents lost in the shuffle on shitty teams. One or two "elite" talents are what puts good basketball teams "over the top". It does NOT fix shit shows going through a culture change like we needed in basketball -- and furthermore, those types of prima donna players could easily further incubate the problems that led to the previous staff's demise. So, I'm FINE with Ray building our foundation on workmanlike players. Let's get a solid foundation with character guys -- then we can go chase a few stars that will be forced by their teammates to buy in to the system -- which appears to be exactly what he is attempting to do.
Either way, my OVERWHELMING point that is totally ignored by everyone with a agenda for/against Ray is that you can't judge SHIT that happens in the first 2 years. Year 3 -- he either gets it done or he doesn't. It's as simple as that. Anyone prognosticating either way based on what we know at this point is an idiot -- even if they end up being correct. The data set is incomplete.
Engie is referencing the hundreds of posts made about Cohen and how he wasnt the guy for State. He wasnt Polk's choice and it wasnt working out. Lots of posts and posters running Cohen down for the first 2 1/2 seasons. Now suddenly- EVERYBODY that posts knew Cohen was the guy for the job.Quote:
Originally Posted by tcdog70
We're not saying Ray is Cohen- but we are saying the run down programs they took over are eerily similar. Ray has one recruiting class on the floor. Next year will be his 2nd. Let's judge when he has had his 2nd and 3rd recruiting classes hit the floor before we turn on the guy. He deserves that.
Didnt Kentucky sign 6-7 elite players last year and miss the NCAA Tourney?
Look , I know a lot of people thought Cohen wouldn't make it. But it wasn't Me. I wanted Him before Polk came back the second time. I also could see Croom could Coach for shit after about 5 games His first Year. I might be wrong but Ray ain't gonna make it. I hope I am wrong and We can at least get back to The Stansbury Standard of 20 wins. Ray , if He is worth a Shit, has an easier road to success because the SEC is WEAK. I don't have an agenda Like Coach 34 had in running down Stansbury. I'm just calling it like I see it. if Ray does something good , Hell, I'll give Him an attaboy.
Engie, you are on my ass for judging Ray. Ok please point out some of His qualities that make you think He can be successful. I have not seen anything other than His players play hard sometimes, But sometimes they don't. He can dance and He can holler 17 you. Don't see where that is going to help Us.
I said two elite plays could change a shitty team into a good team. There are exception to every rule. The Rebs picked one elite Player and they won the SEC tourney and got into the big dance.
The Rebs got into the Dance because of Holloway, Buckner, Summers, plus Henderson...plus White coming off the bench who is a solid playerQuote:
Originally Posted by tcdog70
Then the Cohen post isn't about you personally -- but the point still stands -- and the fact that it bothers you so badly leaves cause for pause -- to say the least.Quote:
Originally Posted by tcdog70
You are jumping the gun in judging Ray either way -- that's my whole point.
He inherited a total shitstorm. In year 1, people thought he would win 6 or 7, and he won 10. In year two, people thought he would win 13-14, and he's already basically surpassed those expectations. He's ahead of where people thought he would be. And that's beside the fact that we were down AT LEAST 5-6 scholarship players BOTH of these years.Quote:
Originally Posted by tcdog70
Let's flip it -- what has Ray done to prove to you that he can't be competitive and win in the SEC with 13 healthy scholarship players?
Ok, I'll buy that..The main thing to Me is His failure to recruit. He hasn't signed but 1 player that looks like He can play in the SEC --Ready. Although Ready looks to be an average SEC player. He is fragile, and a Smurf. he can't guard bigger SEC guards and His offense isn't good enough to cover up His defensive liability. I mean out of the Guys he has signed that haven't played who is gonna be a real SEC quality player? Daniel? Hope So, maybe the Kid Houston? If Daniel can't come in and at least take Borcherts place we haven't gained anything. If 2 elite players(in your and C34's opinion) can't come in and take a shitty team to a good team then we are in big trouble because up till now Ray hasn't signed 1 elite player. What about Pollard? I'm hearing Ray ain't interested. Thanks for a mature discussion, I would hope you are right and I am wrong. I just want MSU back to at least top 5 SEC programs.Quote:
Originally Posted by engie
My issue is with pre-eminently defining a ceiling based on basketball recruiting rankings. Think these guys aren't pros at football? Well, the same ones are assigning the rankings in basketball. We've seen one true Ray recruit on the floor, Ready, who IMO is oozing potential. I've heard a bunch of glowing reports from scrimmages of Ndoye really growing as a scorer as well. So, time(next year) will tell...
We owe it to Ray to let him to get a full roster with a few of his own classes in, and then allow him to define that ceiling for himself without us doing it for him before he's been given a fair shake. You can win big in basketball without elite recruiting -- and quite a few teams prove that every year in March. That's not to say he will or he won't -- but it's no time to be throwing in the towel...
Coach thinks he needs 4 years -- I think he better be in the postseason in year 3 before going dancing in year 4 or else I'm going to be on the fence at best about him. Next year, it's Stansbury expectations 100% from me, and Ray's free pass is over.
The fourth player I put a ? behind their names. Can you not figure out what that means yourself? And I'll bet you all my VCash Devonta Pollard is better than Ndoye and/or Black.Quote:
Originally Posted by NewTweederEndzoneDance
Pollard sure didnt show much at Bama his Freshman year- he wasnt Roq Johnson good
Don't like Pollard, fine how bout the guy in Bama Juco Jay Watkins avg 26 & 10? I could post all day long players that are most likely better than our four. Upgrades folks. We need SHOOTERS, scores and upgrades.Quote:
Originally Posted by Coach34
I agree on shooters. I would love a 6'4 G that is a zone-busting mf'er. I'm sure Ray would too
We need a Ray White clone with a Chucky Evans as PG
shit-Wiley Peck and Timmy Bowers didn't show much as freshmen.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dawg61
That should speak even more about not harsly judging Ready yet, should it not? And we certainly can't judge the 2 extenuating circumstance RS guys...Quote:
Originally Posted by tcdog70
Yes, the question mark means you are not sure who the 4th should be. But you put 2 players who are currently red-shirting and whom you have never seen play in parentheses right behind your question mark, so my point still stands.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dawg61
In my opinion, unless you are recruiting NBA talent, you have to give players a chance to adapt and develop. Not to mention Ready has had trouble staying healthy this year which can't help his early development.Quote:
Originally Posted by engie
That's great. Guess Ray will be looking for a new job under your plan. I think I might be the only one trying to save his job.Quote:
Originally Posted by NewTweederEndzoneDance
I've learned it's useless to try to argue against your various unrealistic, unfounded, obsessive assumptions and ideas, so I'll just say that I'm extremely thankful that you aren't our basketball coach.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dawg61
We're used to being third or fourth best in the SEC, at worst. We were The Basketball School in the State of Mississippi. O well.Quote:
Originally Posted by thf24
To me, there is no difference between 8th and 14th place. I think it's ridiculous to think that 13th place is any better than 14th. Maybe for you, but not for me. I just can't find a way to look at totally sucking "rationally".
That's a super-long shot. First get the player. Then have the player perform according to plan. That's gone wrong a lot more often than it's gone right.Quote:
Originally Posted by Political Hack
I'm just amazed that "fans" continue to defend the suicide bombing of our basketball program. Even if getting rid of Stans was the correct decision, which is not the certainty that it once was, the way it was handled by our AD and our fanbase are the biggest reasons that we barely even have a basketball program anymore.
I'd just shut up rather than defend the current state of affairs. Talk about a dumpster fire.
And there are different opinions as to whose fault that is. I'm pretty sure the guy in your mirror never had an incorrect thought.
Agree, he is a freshman. I did say he is Ray's best recruit. but I was pointing out that He has defensive shortcomings to work on. It is hard for short guards to defend in the SEC. He might be our best shooter, wish we would run some plays for Him to shoot. But he is fragileQuote:
Originally Posted by engie
All is well with our basketball program. I'm sure it'll fix itself. Just wait till next year when we get closer to a full roster right? By then I'm sure Thomas, Davis, Bloodman, Sword and the rest will have learned how to shoot.Quote:
Originally Posted by thf24
3rd or 4th at worst? Here's our conference standing over the ten seasons preceding the 2012 purge:Quote:
Originally Posted by drunkernhelldawg
2011-12: 6
2010-11: 6
2009-10: 5
2008-09: 6
2007-08: 2
2006-07: 6
2005-06: 9
2004-05: 5
2003-04: 1
2002-03: 4
2001-02: 2
Average of 5th place, with a mode of 6th. We were a middle-of-the-road conference team over that time period, only finishing fourth or better, as you claim was our expected norm, four out of ten times. Yes, we're used to being a pretty good basketball team and the present is definitely a significant low, but we're not an elite, prestigious program that should be able to pull itself back together overnight as some of you seem to think. It was going to take anyone barring a Calipari- or Krzyzewski-caliber hire three or four years to put us back into the mid to upper part of the conference. Just give it some time. At the end of next season, if we still can't score and have a ragged roster, then you can say you were right and that we made the wrong move. But at this point, it's just irrational all around to make those claims.
Edit: excuse me, four out of ten times finishing fourth or better.
What's irrational is expecting Ray to fill 13 scholarships and develop any sort of functional shooting amongst his players. He needs help. Lots of it.
I see this has been addressed- thanksQuote:
Originally Posted by drunkernhelldawg
In addition to your fine work there- I'll take a 2nd chance to remind people that Calipari signed 6-7 Elite players for 2013, and they finished with a 1st round NIT loss. They went 12-6 in the SEC and won 21 games.Quote:
Originally Posted by thf24
College basketball has changed alot in the last 5 years, it's not like it used to be. Mid Major have gained alot of ground.
I think he was referring to the stat where we had the 4th most conference wins COMBINED in a 10 year period behind UK, Fla and Tenn . Not where we finished seperately each year. Two different stats .
Why do you persist on going full f'n retard in every single basketball thread? It's a God-forsakenly dumb idea to assume anyone will improve. After all, you want to pull a guy on pace to be a 37% 3 point shooter's scholarship next year.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dawg61
2013:
Player GP MIN PPG RPG APG SPG BPG TPG FG% FT% 3P%
Craig Sword 23 28.3 13.2 3.6 2.6 2.0 0.5 3.0 .484 .643 .222
Gavin Ware 23 25.0 10.6 7.7 0.3 0.9 0.3 1.4 .595 .636 .000
Colin Borchert 23 28.1 10.0 4.6 1.4 0.9 1.1 2.0 .409 .778 .314
Roquez Johnson 23 23.3 9.0 4.8 0.7 0.5 0.0 1.6 .437 .575 .000
Fred Thomas 22 30.0 8.4 3.0 1.6 1.0 0.9 1.5 .341 .644 .299
I.J. Ready 16 23.6 6.4 1.6 3.1 1.1 0.0 1.6 .426 1.000 .438
Bloodman 23 23.8 5.7 2.0 2.3 1.0 0.0 1.3 .532 .705 .357
Andre Applewhite 12 17.8 5.5 3.9 1.3 0.8 0.1 1.7 .415 .674 .333
Jacoby Davis 19 10.7 2.2 0.9 0.7 0.3 0.0 0.4 .298 .667 .314
Cunningham 23 8.3 1.8 0.4 0.3 0.3 0.0 0.4 .394 .900 .316
Tevin Moore 9 3.4 1.1 0.2 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.2 .571 .200 .500
Totals 23 -- 68 33 13 8 3 14 .446 .656 .312
2012:
Player GP MIN PPG RPG APG SPG BPG TPG FG% FT% 3P%
Craig Sword 32 26.7 10.5 2.9 2.3 1.7 0.4 4.0 .405 .554 .194
Jalen Steele 18 26.6 10.1 2.9 1.1 0.8 0.1 1.8 .339 .923 .329
Fred Thomas 32 28.7 9.7 3.5 1.3 1.8 0.8 1.5 .328 .795 .238
Colin Borchert 29 27.0 9.0 5.0 1.3 1.1 1.2 2.3 .413 .659 .337
Roquez Johnson 28 26.1 8.8 4.5 0.4 0.8 0.5 2.5 .425 .596 .278
Gavin Ware 32 25.8 8.4 6.4 0.3 0.5 0.8 1.3 .542 .562 .000
Wendell Lewis 8 21.0 8.1 4.9 0.8 0.4 0.4 1.5 .568 .938 .000
Bloodman 32 29.1 6.1 3.3 2.3 1.2 0.0 2.8 .352 .726 .279
Cunningham 32 20.7 2.4 2.4 1.3 0.7 0.1 1.0 .368 .615 .413
Baxter Price 21 4.8 0.0 0.2 0.1 0.0 0.0 0.3 .000 .000 .000
Totals 32 -- 61 33 10 8 4 17 .401 .657 .284
We are better in basically every f'ing facet right now than we were last year. On our current improvement schedule, we will shoot 34% from 3 next year -- and 49.1% overall -- score 75 -- 16 assists per game -- get down to 11 Turnovers.
In 14 years, Stansbury put together a GRAND TOTAL of two teams with a higher scoring average than we will have next year if we simply improve by the same margin we did this year -- and he NEVER had a better overall FG% team.
But the sky is falling -- and there's NO WAY we can go anywhere with these players. Time to SCRAP it and start over** Because YOU don't SEE the improvement**
Whose going to shoot .37% from 3 next year? Fred Thomas? You must be joking right. Because he went from putrid .24% to an ugly .30% he's going to magically shoot .37% next year? Engie I like you and you have many fantastic posts but COME ON MAN. Fred Thomas is more likely to grow 6 inches and become a 7footer than he is to shoot .37% from 3.
I'm pretty sure he is talking about Bloodman
But I will add that Rayyvern Johnson improved his 3pt% by 10% from Fr to Sr year. I wont be surprised to see FTF hitting 34-35% next year with a complete team
No -- I don't think he's going to hit only one of every 300 shots**Quote:
Originally Posted by Dawg61
Yeah -- I know -- you already told us how we aren't going to get any better and haven't improved. And when I show you the numbers, you roll into an argument that THESE PLAYERS can't improve any more -- although I've already shown you that they have. Tremendously so. But you are stuck applying Stansbury player development to Ray and refusing to "believe".
Thomas has shot 35% from 3 over our SEC losing streak in the past 5. 35.5% from 3 since the beginning of January(11 games). Sky is falling and there is no way he ever learns to really shoot it though. NO CHANCE he can improve another couple of percent on this number next year(which is alot closer to "his" reality -- now that he's starting to find a little confidence). Pull his scholly**
I feel like you are watching basketball from an entirely different planet than I am at this point.
He's really gonna freak when we have a full team + Staley next year and Bear never sees the floor
But Engie insists that nobody improved under Stans, so how could he improve by 10%? Engie, please get off the Stans stuff and just post your info. I know a lot of people are tired of it. I do think Fred will improve, but I don't know if I like him shooting so much from the corner. In the games that I have attended, a lot of his shots aren't even close. He seems to shoot better from other spots closer to the top of the key.Quote:
Originally Posted by Coach34