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Mullen is the greatest State coach in history and that can even be debated. Facts gonna fact.
Croom was dogshit. He only had a winning season due to a helluva D defensive TD's. Dont lose sight of the fact he was an offensive coach (in many ways)
Can we be mad that he job shopped alot? Absolutely. But comparing him to Croom or saying he isnt a great coach is like comparing South Panola to Sylva Bay Academy.
No one is saying that Croom was a good coach. But he did leave Dan a team with good talent for when he took over. Also, in 2010 our administration wised up and for the first time in MSU history scheduled four winnable opponents rather than Georgia Tech and West Virginia in the same season plus Houston with Art Briles. That schedule affected the performance of both Croom and it affected Dan in 2009 as well. No question in my mind we go bowling with an easier OOC schedule.Quote:
Originally Posted by Coach34
I do think it is debatable that Dan was our best ever. Jackie is definitely in the debate. He had more top 25 wins, more wins over teams that won the East/West, and won a SEC Championship Game. His 1999 team finished basically with the same rankings as Dan's 2014 team. His last three years were awful but LT let that get out of hand and should have stepped in earlier.
Bob Tyler should be in the discussion as well. Two 9 win seasons on the field and built the 1980 team basically.
FactsQuote:
Originally Posted by Coach34
Thats just insane. It's not even debatable. And Jackie is my favorite State coach. Jackie coached in an easier SEC than Mullen and still didnt do as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Todd4State
Under Jackie- we lost to schools like Memphis and Kentucky regularly. Mullen made that rare and unexpected. Thats the difference.
Jackie was a superior coach to Mullen. Get out of here. We didn?t have the advantages over Memphis and USM that we do now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Coach34
We don?t have advantages over Memphis right now. Do we hope that changes? Sure. But financially, they have better funding because they have at least 2 Billionaires supporting their program.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoopsDawg
We have 2 gigantic advantages over Memphis...we're in a P4 conference, and that P4 conference is the SEC. That stuff still mattersQuote:
Originally Posted by CaptainObvious
We heavily outrecruit Memphis yearly and literally never lose anyone we want to them. We have massive advantages over them. This take is not reality. At all.Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainObvious
It absolutely is debatable. How many times did Jackie beat a good Ole Miss team? 1998 and 1999 and 2001 all come to mind. Jackie ended their 1980's dominance and put us on equal footing with them. He beat Alabama several times including once when they won the West. He beat Auburn twice in years when they won the West. He beat Tennessee when they had Peyton Manning, beat peak era Spurrier and Florida twice, struggled against LSU but had a couple of memorable wins against them nonetheless, and Jackie did beat Kentucky pretty consistently as well. Kentucky was much better with Mumme/Leach than they were during Dan's era. He beat Arkansas to win the SEC West when they were highly ranked, and he beat South Carolina pretty consistently. And the the 1999 Peach Bowl was memorable and the 2000 Snow Bowl is still celebrated by MSU.Quote:
Originally Posted by Coach34
We did have some good moments with Dan but the vast majority of those memories happened in 2014 over a three week period or 2010 like Florida and Georgia which are kind of underrated wins and of course the bowl win over Michigan. Aside from that you only have a few other good memories like the 2009 and 2013 Egg Bowl and Texas A&M 2016 and LSU 2017. Leach had almost as many top 25 wins in three years as Dan did in nine years.
I think if you could switch them and make them coach in each other's eras I think Jackie would have won more in Dan's era than Dan did. And vice versa.
What? No. JWS had five seasons out of his thirteen where he won 3 or less games. Just horrible, noncompetitive seasons.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoopsDawg
Had he retired after the 2000 season there would be a good debate between he and Dan.
JWS had losing seasons in 6 of his 13 seasons. And of those 6, five of them were compete disasters with 3 or less wins.Quote:
Originally Posted by Todd4State
I'm here for it!!! My petty ass is looking forward to seeing them lose as much as watching us win. Sorry. Can't change who I am.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cowbell
So die a hero or live long enough to be a villain?Quote:
Originally Posted by confucius say
Jackie is the GOAT. Mullen is a complete tool. Competent coach though. And if you schedule right and are competent in Mullen?s era, you are going to average 7 wins. Jackie went 7-4 and we didn?t even go to a bowl.
Haha. Fair.Quote:
Originally Posted by DownwardDawg
I don't hold 1997 (he went 7-4 with no bowl) against him. It's the five seasons of 3 or less wins that put him behind Dan.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoopsDawg
Pretty sure Jackie had two 7-4 seasons and no bowlQuote:
Originally Posted by HoopsDawg
When besides 1997? Pretty sure not.Quote:
Originally Posted by Turfdawg67
He had 4 7-win regular seasons, and he made bowls in 3 of themQuote:
Originally Posted by confucius say
Jackie changed the program and the perception of it. He is the Godfather of State football. He will always be my favorite State coach including all sports.
But Mullen is the best coach in State history. Record-wise. Bowls-wise. Highest ranking. I dont even understand how anybody can even challenge that. Todd wants to talk about what Croom left Mullen- go back and look at what Rockey left for Jackie. Croom's problem was that he was a terrible coach. He could have coached the 85 Bears to a 7-9 record.
Mullen's biggest accomplishment was continuing to win consistently. We have never had a coach do that at State before. Bellard had a great season. Tyler had a couple of good seasons. Jackie had a couple of great seasons with some others good. Mullen was good every year. Even in 2009 we got cheated out of a 6-6 against Houston to keep them ranked high. Are we sour about him job shopping and leaving when he had built his best team yet? Absolutely. But that can change simple facts
That's what I thought. Only one 7-4 season without a bowl.Quote:
Originally Posted by msstate7
Half of those were from 2001-2003.Quote:
Originally Posted by confucius say
1993 we had 2 ties that season. That could have very well been a 5-6 win season with today's rules.
1995 was a disaster I'll give you that.
1996 we went 5-6 and beat Bama and Ole Miss. That's probably a 6-6 season during Dan's era.
Dan was here for 9 years. If you compare what Dan did to Jackie's first 9 years then Jackie is clearly better.
Dan also had 1 more cupcake game - usually FBS - that Jackie never had. Yeah, Jackie lost some OOC games but he likely beats an FBS every year pre-2001. Jackie also didn't have anywhere near the resources Dan had - nor the support to go get them like Dan had with The Ninja and Loafers. Jackie got Templeton Troughs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Todd4State
Jackie got to coach in an SEC with Bama having Mike Dubose and Dennis Franchione in it after they forced Stallings out. Pine Box Tommy beat his ass and then left for Auburn. Dont get me started about 4th and 29. Jackie's struggle with UPig is why 1999 wasnt more special. That loss put us in the Peach Bowl instead of a much more prestigious bowl.Quote:
Originally Posted by BrunswickDawg
8 straight bowls by Mullen. Nationally relevant. We wont ever see that again. What Mullen gave us was generational. We will chase what he gave us for decades
Exactly.Quote:
Originally Posted by BrunswickDawg
DuBose won the SEC and for the first six years Jackie had to deal with Gene Stallings.Quote:
Originally Posted by Coach34
We got screwed against Arkansas. They called back a TD on a "hold" that doesn't get talked about enough. The SEC was going to make damn sure that Jackie didn't win the West back to back.
The late 1990's we were absolutely nationally relevant. Dog Pound Rock. On every other Thursday night it seemed like. Jackie and Joe Lee Dunn and his crazy defense. And we won the SEC West in 1998. That is absolutely nationally relevant. We had Tennessee on the ropes and it basically took a perfect pass to beat us and Tennessee made it. And we didn't have JJ for the Championship game either. Keefer passing away really hurt us because he would have been a senior and would have been the other half of the running back duo Jackie liked to have like Davis/Bouie and Dicenzo/Dontae.
The 1999 team finished 12th in one poll and 13th in the other. 2014 we finished 12th in one poll and 11th in the other. Basically the same spot. Give me the season with the Egg Bowl win and Peach Bowl win over 2014 though. That kind of shit matters when you are talking legacy and Dan didn't get that or cared. He wins the Egg in 2014 or 2015 just one of those- I view him differently. 2017 would have helped too. Say what you want about Jackie but he never let a job search distract him like that. And as you know he was up for the Alabama job in 2000. What did Jackie do? He absolutely kicked their ass in. Pretty badass actually. Dan would have been distracted and not had us ready to play at all and would have lost by three and then lost the UConn job he was trying to get.
I think you're letting feelings over Mullen cloud your judgment here. The SEC after Jackie left is a completely different animal. The last 20 years the NC has been won by an SEC team 13 times. The 20 years prior to that only 4 times. Mullen may have had a better OOC schedule but the in conference more than made up for that. 8 out of his 9 years here Mullen had offenses among the top 10 best ever at State. He holds the top 7 best single season offensive yards here. Love Jackie but objectively it's not really close.Quote:
Originally Posted by Todd4State
That TD pass to Peerless Price was almost as painful as the Greg Ellena HR.Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt3467
So your argument is that if I take out JWS's three worst seasons then he is better than Dan?Quote:
Originally Posted by Todd4State
If that's the case, I get to take out Dan's three worst seasons, too.
And even if I'm only taking JWS's first 9 seasons, he still had losing records in year 3 (1993), year 5 (1995), and year 6 (1996). And two of those years, 1993 and 1995, were complete disasters with only 3 wins each.
I took his first 9 years because that's how long Dan coached. So I took out 2000 and left in the three losing seasons you are referring to which I know hurt my argument to prove my point. Because in 2000 he beat both teams that won the division and the Snow Bowl. I also took out his win against Ole Miss and Eli in 2001 too.Quote:
Originally Posted by confucius say
And 1993 was not "a complete disaster" as I detailed in other posts. He had 3 wins but also had 2 ties as well. Add in the fact that we played one less game a year and 1993 was a lot closer to 2013 than not.
I'm basing it off of top 25 wins, SEC championships, and memorable wins. Jackie is superior to Dan in all three. Our run from 1996-2000 was the best run of football in the modern era. Dan never had a five year period close to that. And never had a three year run close to 1997-1999 or 1998-2000.Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt3467
Like I said Leach had almost as many top 25 wins as Dan did in three years. And a good chunk of Dan's top 25 wins came in 2014 over a three week period.
3-6-2 in year three is a complete disaster. One of the ties was to a 2 win Arkansas State team. Just a complete disaster.Quote:
Originally Posted by Todd4State
And it's not really close to 2013's 6-6.
It's just as close to 3-9.
Regardless, you have to take their whole respective tenures, not just 9 years (Dan left after 9 years because he was successful. JWS was fired because he completely cratered the program).
When you compare their whole tenures, I think even you agree that Dan > JWS.
Jackie had to face peak Florida with Spurrier and Peak Tennessee with Fulmer. lol, are you trying to act like the SEC wasn?t good? It was much better than this years SEC.Quote:
Originally Posted by Coach34
Well if you cherry pick metrics, sure (JWS never won a sec championship though-he did win a bad West in 98 when we got to play USC, Vandy, and KY from the East, and he deserves credit for that).Quote:
Originally Posted by Todd4State
But he also put up 6 losing seasons in 13 years, 5 of which were horrible 3-win-or-less seasons. All five of those were much worse than Dan's worst two years of 5-7. And he left the program in shambles, whereas Dan left it in the best shape it's ever been. He gets credit for all of that, too.
I think the comparison was sec during JS to sec during DM. It was much better during DMQuote:
Originally Posted by HoopsDawg
He didn't face either of those two from 1996 through 1999. That benefited us greatly. 1998 and 1999 we drew KY, USCe, and Vandy from the East.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoopsDawg
That's when you have to make hay, and to his credit he did.
All this is just BS, what if we hadn’t fired Allen McKeen or what if Darrell Royal doesn’t leave after 1 year because we were cheap? All of these scenarios wouldn’t matter if we weren’t who we are. That’s what we have been unwilling to accept and adjust forever.
Or what if we would've hired Spurrier, who wanted the job, in 86. Instead we went cheap and hired Rockey.Quote:
Originally Posted by Coursesuper
Or, pivoting to another sport, what if we had pushed more for Roy Williams when we offered him the job in 86.
To put that into perspective, we could've had Roy Williams, Steve Spurrier, and Ron Polk all on campus at the same time.
I just don't think the eras are really comparable. Jackie had no real resources to work with. No $25 million Football practice facility. No East Side Upper Deck or NEZ addition. Terrible locker rooms. No real support coming from LT - unless you count the troughs.Quote:
Originally Posted by confucius say
And don't forget - we had the NCAA up our ass the day Jackie walked on campus.
Or if we hired peak Jimbo Fisher in 2003 instead of Croom. Jimbo would have brought in most of Saban's staff from LSU including Muschamp.Quote:
Originally Posted by StarkVegasSteve
Of course there will be a drop, they won every one score game except one. That doesn't happen often, hell they lost every 1 score game in 2024.Quote:
Originally Posted by msstate7