It means he is recruiting well as our classes remain highly rankedQuote:
Originally Posted by the_real_MSU_is_us
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It means he is recruiting well as our classes remain highly rankedQuote:
Originally Posted by the_real_MSU_is_us
Our RPI is 46 and we've lost 3 of the last 4. We've also seen LSU fall off a cliff so that series doesn't say as much as we hoped. Honestly the Florida series is more impressive at this point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Coach34
All I'm saying is we are not exactly playing at the "super regional" standard of play you say is our standard. We might get there, I could see it happening with Dohm back. But we have not been playing at that level on the whole this season
Cohen got the Super after 3 years. Cohen played for the Natty in Y5. Cohen made 2 Supers or better in 7 seasons. Why do sooooo many of our fans live in Revisionist history?Quote:
Originally Posted by maroonmania
1) Odd that you leave off his 8th season, where we won the SEC outright and made the Supers as a national seed (lost to the eventual runner up). This is the definition of cherrypicking stats that you took his first 7 seasons but not his full 8.Quote:
Originally Posted by Coach34
2) Cohen had to rebuild from Polk 2 in a pre Portal, pre 1 time immediate eligibility transfer era world. It only took 2 lost seasons to get it rolling. Year 3 on: Super, regional, CWS runner up, regional, missed tourney (which he aggressively addressed via JuCo transfers), SR as a national seed and SEC champs. Then Cann comes along and somehow makes a Super with like 3 serviceable SEC pitchers, and then Henderson took a very distracted team to Omaha.
Ahhhhhhhhhhh and here we go.Quote:
Originally Posted by the_real_MSU_is_us
I did that because half the fanbase wanted Cohen fired after Y2. I was online supporting Cohen and explaining that Polk 2 was ridiculously lazy. He has lost for 2 seasons and people didnt think State should have that happen. Raffo told me on the phone they wouldnt recruit my players unless they came to camp. 2 went to LSU and 1 to UPig. People were pissed Greg didnt let Polk make Raffo the HC. Then- not only did our fans want to fire Cohen after 2 years- they wanted to fire him again in 2015. He bunted too much. He missed the Tourney. He was letting our program fall. Our program was losing life.
Then we went on our best run in history. Point? Fans arent the best judge of when coaching changes need to happen. Fan is short for fanatic for a reason
and to make the comparision- one of the big arguments to fire Arnett was not only was the rebuild going bad but recruiting in the future wasnt very rosey. We were in the 30's in recruiting for football.
For this recruiting class- Lemon/State is 10th in the country this cycle in recruiting rating. That's why people in the know or higher up arent white knuckling right now
That's revisionist history. You can go through the archives at SPS and see that it's not true. There were a few people here and there who wanted him fired, but he had clear majority support of the fanbase, even though there was a consensus that he had to make a Regional in Year 3.Quote:
Originally Posted by Coach34
oh thats 100% wrong. 80% of Sixpack wanted Cohen fired in his 2nd year. It was me and a couple others defending him. Most were saying Cohen wasnt ready for this big job and we ****ed up not hiring RaffoQuote:
Originally Posted by Quaoarsking
Seems most hated cohen, because he said too many dirty words. Wes give a left nut for that passion now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Coach34
I don't approve of profanity but I sure did love playing for intense coaches and sometimes those types have to let a few fly, lol!Quote:
Originally Posted by SPMT
You gotta be who you are as a coach!
I hear you! It can be overused and I grew up around profanity and use it too much, but do believe coaches of most all sports need intensity, regardless of their method. No need to direct it toward a player specifically but young men respond to intense coaches more often than not, as long as they aren’t whiners or blamers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Commercecomet24
Baseball, especially can use an intense coach. Let’s face it, baseball often lacks the toughness required from other sports, especially physically, which often ties into mentally, where it is probably the most difficult of modern American sports. Baseball is a true sport of life.
I loved being coached hard when I played and I coached that way myself(although I didn't use profanity) but you can get your point across without it lol! Lot of kids now can't handle being coached like that but the ones that can will make better ball players. I had some that couldn't handle it and went somewhere else. You're right about baseball it truly is a sport of life and i believe it truly is the most difficult of sports.Quote:
Originally Posted by SPMT
My oldest son is a high school baseball and football coach and the parents love him because he's tough and he sticks up for his players.
Yes, but it's also reasonable to expect players to improve as they mature as players. Does every player pan out? No. But the odds of a guy like Nolan Stevens getting better are pretty high for example. The odds of a Dylan Cupp getting better are high. Guys that play in National All Star games that we get to campus like the PG All American Classic tend to pan out more times than not. Even a guy like Bryce Chance that I expect to be here as a fifth year senior- odds are he is going to be an even better player in two years than he is now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Santiago
What is this about year six and Lemonis having his guys? No one has said anything about that. Everyone knows his guys are here now. Are you getting this confused with some Genespage post from 2005?Quote:
Originally Posted by the_real_MSU_is_us
Whether Lemonis coaches these players next year or not is irrelevant. The fact of the matter is he has shown that he can win with enough talent- 2019-2021. That's not an endorsement for keeping him- actually quite the opposite if he keeps underachieving with his recruits. Because if he isn't our coach then someone that does come in is basically going to walk into a really good situation that can be turned around very quickly. To me, I don't care who coaches them as long as they produce.
It wasn't just about Polk and Raffo and Cohen. You had fans that wanted Steve Smith, some that wanted Brian Shoop, and some that wanted someone else. The biggest thing Cohen had going for him was his track record as a coach. I can't tell you how many people would come up to me and talk about how big of an asshole Cohen was in 2009 and 2010- but would then follow up with "he's going to win a National Championship here though." So there were certainly a lot of fans that didn't like him but I think on some level they also knew that's what we needed as a baseball coach. And honestly in hindsight he absolutely built our program into what we expect and want to be even moreso than Polk did. 2016-2021 was the best run for MSU baseball ever. And that's because of Cohen. 2011-2013 was pretty darn good too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Quaoarsking
Also- fans say stupid things when we're losing too. Especially MSU fans.
Excellent post!Quote:
Originally Posted by Todd4State
If someone wanted to fire Cohen after year 2, they weren't being realistic. He had a massive exodus with Polk poisoning the team against him. He had to completely rebuild the program.
And his actual dip in 2015 was due to having a team built for the dead ball and the NCAA changing that before the season. Ross Mitchell went from one of the best relievers in SEC history to throwing BP.
Cohen quickly adjusted and got right back to kicking azz.
Lemonis is slowly regressing the program but I am willing to see what he does this year. We at least haven't been run ruled this year.
3
Revisionist?? What the heck are you talking about? Very, very few people had any issues with Cohen after we started going to Supers. That is why I didn't even bother to mention him. Heck, playing for the 2013 NC was SO much better than anything Polk had done for years and years that it was a breath of fresh air. There is nothing to revise. Four out of five MSU fans I talk to wish he would have remained our baseball coach and stayed out of the AD business. He was very good as a college baseball coach but was a terrible AD. I'm VERY glad Auburn took him off our hands.Quote:
Originally Posted by Coach34
I'm not sure how anyone can say that we're regressing. We're a respectable 5-5 in the SEC and we almost have as many wins as we had all of last year.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tbonewannabe
We're not where we want to be but compared to the last two years I don't think we're going backwards.
I was talking about Lemonis walking into a program that has been a top 10 program since 2016 and has now dropped the bar to hoping we are a 2 seed somewhere.Quote:
Originally Posted by Todd4State
2016 - National Seed and won the SEC
2017 - a few outs away from Omaha
2018 - a few outs away from playing for the National Title
2019 - Omaha
2021 - National Title
2022 - garbage year - obviously didn't maintain standard
2023 - worst pitching performance in MSU history (over 150 years)
2024 - fan base now hoping to make a Regional
Not sure what you see but I see a guy that was handed an Omaha built program and he has slowly regressed it. Look at his time at Indiana and it is similar. He doesn't seem to be the guy to lift up a program.
Sure they did and were loud about it- saying the same things they say now. “We’re Miss State- we should never have a losing season.” Plus all the other takes when he couldn’t get 10 SEC wins in Y2.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tbonewannabe
How is our confidence today?
Medium. The team is gutsy and rising above our substandard coach, but he's still holding us back.
On top of that, our poor RPI means 13-17 likely doesn't get us a Regional at all, and we'll need 19 or 20 SEC wins to host, meaning we probably will be underseeded in the NCAA Tournament (assuming we make it at all, which we probably will), giving us a harder path to Omaha.
Longterm confidence is lower since all of our good players are leaving after this year, so we really need to make a run to Omaha now, because next year will be a step back unless we hit the portal jackpot.
Ballsy win from the program. Culture may just be back
Helped my confidence today 34.
We had 3 games vs UGA at home and all 3 games were close late.Quote:
Originally Posted by Coach34
So I'd say my confidence level is at "we're about the same as UGA".
Is UGA good enough? They're like the 9th best team in the conference
Mizzou swept Florida- so we're worse than Mizzou with that line of thinkingQuote:
Originally Posted by the_real_MSU_is_us
Ok, fair enough I guess. I think this weekend cemented is as "mediocre".Quote:
Originally Posted by Coach34
We beat LSU and thought we had something, but they're one of the worst teams in the conference so we went 2-1 vs one of the easiest weekends. Went to A&M and got a win, solid showing. Went to a decent UF team and got 1 and fought hard, again decent showing. Then we get another home series vs one of the easier teams on the schedule and have to fight like hell to BARELY defend our home.
That's the definition of "mid" -as I think the kids you coach say- isn't it?
We aren't bad we're just not at the State standard and it will be a fight to get to 14 wins
We're top 7 in conference right now. It could
Move up or down depending on what happens the rest of the way.
I guess the issue remains what the "State standard" is. We've hosted 4 times in the last decade going back to 2013 since 2020 was killed. Doing something less than half the time will never be a "standard"Quote:
Originally Posted by the_real_MSU_is_us
Our standard should also never be based on something decided by a committee. That's why a SR is my personal standard.Quote:
Originally Posted by Coach34
Our RPI actually went down 3 today. It's like 47 so it's a concern.Quote:
Originally Posted by Quaoarsking
I actually agree here. When you make a Super- it’s been a successful season without a doubtQuote:
Originally Posted by Todd4State
I think a team that hosts (especially as a top 8 seed) and loses its Regional generally had a better season that a 3 seed who happens to win a Regional.
Now maybe there are a few specific examples where this isn't clear, and if that 3 seed goes deep into Omaha, maybe not. But baseball is too random and fickle to let one bad weekend derail a season. I prefer to judge the quality of the season on SEC record, RPI (I know, it's not a great system but it's what we have), and what seed we get. Making a deep run to Omaha is awesome, but I'm going to be more comfortable with Lemonis going forward if we host and lose than if we don't host, but lose in the Supers.
Why can't we have a "standard" of top 16? We are too 16 in history, facilities, fan support, coaching salary, recruiting, and probably are near it in NIL.Quote:
Originally Posted by Coach34
Why would we accept a "standard" that's less than the average of our parts?
But moreover, if we are in the hosting discussion (and don't go 0-2 in the regional) absolutely nobody will be demanding we fire Lemo. Myself included. So don't act like my "state standard" I mean "host or be fired". Also, we won't be in the hosting discussion will we? We will be a bubble team counting wins till the last weekend and hoping for a win in Hoover. That's a little bit different from hosting isn't it?
Totally disagree. If you are national seed and dont win your Regional??? Failed season and underachievedQuote:
Originally Posted by Quaoarsking
Right now ... I'm cautiously optimistic.
Hadn't said anything yet but since the beginning of SEC play I been watching and I've thought this team has potential.
FWIW here are a couple of my thoughts on lineup (nothing drastic):
I'm not crazy about Larry as leadoff. I'd move him to the 8 or 9 hole. His BA is too low and he just doesn't make enough happen at the top of the order IMO. I mention this cause I just am really bugged at the lack of productivity there. If he starts hitting really good again, he can be moved back up there maybe.
I'd move Merchon to leadoff. He makes things happen and is more of a prototype leadoff to me, just needs to cut down on the Ks and make more consistent contact. He also don't need to be doing stupid stuff like getting picked off 2nd either.
Chance is who I'd probably move to the 2 slot. He'll also get better pitches to hit with DJ behind him. He's been hitting the ball pretty well since I been watching. And he also makes contact a lot and doesn't K hardly at all. Good hit & run/run & hit guy.
I'd leave the rest of it about as is.
Overall we need to cut down on the Ks. But I will say most of the guys don't SO looking too often.
Hitting with RISP is pretty darn good IMO. At least that's my perception without looking at the stats. My perception is we hit better with runners on than off base. We also seem to hit better when behind too.
I love how mentally tough and how good they are at coming from behind. Huge Sac's big base running blunder (damn he don't need to be doing that) could've sucked the wind out of a lot of teams but this team just keeps scrapping. I love that.
Pitching:
I ain't always following Lemon's management of the staff in later innings. He may have a long term outlook I ain't seeing and some pitch count or some other analytics I'm not aware of. I have gotten irritated a couple of times when he's been slow to get someone up in the pen. He could also still be trying to figure a few things out with the staff. IMO, overall staff management is decent tho.
A question I sorta had, but it might be cause Lemon wants him to focus on maximizing his RHP ability is ... if Jurrangelo can pitch both ways, why not switch arms when the other team is starting to find their groove with him in later innings. Just a thought I had. He does seem to be better as a righty and Lemon/Parker may be saying let's focus on maximizing that side. Or, and this may have been done before, use him as a reliever in another weekend game with him pitching lefty.
Davis looked good today and has low ERA so he might evolve into the closer. I kinda like submariners for that too, and I think Schuelke might be good there too.
Overall I think we're improving and we need to keep doing that. I ain't too concerned about dominating right now like Arky & KY seem to be, but would like to get warmed up good and then hot going into the postseason.
ETA: And players also don't need to be doing stupid stuff like what Long did last night. That was a baseball play and GA player did nothing wrong there.
Gotta quit the stupid stuff. Getting picked off at 2nd, Huge Sak's blunder today, Long last night ... stupid stuff.
Because its something we cant accomplish even half the timeQuote:
Originally Posted by the_real_MSU_is_us
Something cant be a "standard" if you dont do it 3/4 of the time. Thats the standard you WANT- but its not reality
You're mixing up "minimum acceptable performance" with "standard". A "standard" is what you expect to hit on average. A "minimum acceptable performance" means you fire the coach any season they don't hit it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Coach34
Nobody is saying to fire a baseball coach when he doesn't host. We're saying that over say, a 3 year period, the "standard" should average top 16. You can view that as a "regular season" (ie host a regional) or "post season" ie make a Super. That's what Todd sets as his standard. Most of us will forgive a non-host regular season if they perform in the postseason, and understand that baseball is a fickle game and some postseason underperformances will happen so a Super isn't always going to happen even if you host.
You know what's NOT at any "standard"? a 3 year period consisting of missing Hoover, missing Hoover, and being decent but struggling to make the tournament at all. That's below ANY "state standard" you could ask for. Even if you disagree with whatever you want to pretend I demand, you can't possibly say that in Lemos "put up or shut up" season a to the last weekend nailbiter to make the tournament is "putting up".
You're setting up EXACTLY what I feared would happen. I said Lemo would do just enough to make the tournament, people like you would say that's improvement and we should keep Lemo, and we'd waste yet another year with a sub par coach. You're already trying to attack the "standard" so you can say barely sneaking into the tourny is fine.
BUt please, tell me: What does State lack that prevents top 16 from being a reasonable average? Tell me, do we not pay top 16 coaching income? Do we not have top 16 facilities? What am I missing that weighs us down?
But we arent struggling to make the Tournament this year- we are about to be ranked inside the Top 20. U know who is struggling to make the tournament? LSU and Mississippi
Our RPI is in the high 40s and we need 14 SEC wins. Half the famed conference is ranked ahead of us. Yes it'll be a battle to get to the tournament unless our hitters get hot and stay hot or we find a stud 3rd pitcherQuote:
Originally Posted by Coach34