John Cohen discusses lineup diversity, matchups, Hudson, etc on Out of Bounds

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Originally Posted by engie

So what you are saying is -- a little forced adversity turns them into head case ******s? It embarrassed you so bad you wanted to take your ball and go home?

Every single point in that post describes guys that I do not want at MSU. Not under this regime.

There was a time I was 4th every day behind a 3 time collegiate all-American. 2 spots behind an all-sec guy that holds a bunch of records. With all that protection and all those ducks on the pond, comfort actually made me less of a hitter. I thrived off adversity and perceived slights. Played better pissed off and doubted. THAT is what is/will be successful under this regime at MSU. If guys need all the coddling you are talking about -- they were dumb asses to sign with MSU in the first place. They've had half their lifetime now to know exactly what they were going to get from Cohen.

Everyone knows who Cohen is. Yet a bunch of you suddenly up and decided they want him to be Ron Polk. I just don't get it.

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Then you're gonna have a hard time fielding a full team. I get what you are saying about being mentally tough but moving around does affect some players, not all but some, and it's the smart thing to do to identify them and either force them into a move and be consistent with it or make them comfortable. It all has to work in the framework of the entire offense.

To me it's not black and white. You can do what 34 did which is knowing the offense will better with a move and forcing it in them- but you can't bounce them around while doing it - OR you can placate them bc you know the offense will be better with them hitting in their comfort spot. All about what's going to make the offense click better.

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Originally Posted by Big4Dawg

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So looking at this, no one is moving from 2nd to 8th as some of you are describing. We are talking about 1-2 spots. The biggest is Lowe and that is because he has started hitting better. Do you think Kruger matters if he hits 2nd or 3rd? Collins cares if he's hitting 4th or 5th? Hump cares if 5th or 6th? LA cares if 8th or 9th? No. This is a stupid argument.

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It's not a stupid argument. Those particular players might not care....but then again they might. It's baseball and it's there everyday.

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Originally Posted by Big4Dawg

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So looking at this, no one is moving from 2nd to 8th as some of you are describing. We are talking about 1-2 spots. The biggest is Lowe and that is because he has started hitting better. Do you think Kruger matters if he hits 2nd or 3rd? Collins cares if he's hitting 4th or 5th? Hump cares if 5th or 6th? LA cares if 8th or 9th? No. This is a stupid argument.

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seriously? We had guys here arguing last week Kruger had to go back to the 2 hole because he was struggling to hit in the 3 hole at .200- but was batting .500 in the 2 hole. You guys need to get you stand on a point and stick with it

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USC does the same thing. I looked at 5-6 top 25 teams and they were the only other one I could find

Joe Maddon consistently uses over 140 different lineups in a 162 game season. This goes back to his time in the AL with consistent DH's. He's a pretty good manager.

National league lineup changes everyday.

I didn't have time to read all the posts before this, but main things (in order) that dictate your approach are your 1. Skill set and 2. Situation. I can promise you that Adam Frazier never went to the plate trying to hit a bomb, and it wasn't because he hit leadoff every game. It's because he was damn good at what he did. If Cohen put Frazier in the 4 hole, he would still hit like Adam Frazier. If you want to argue that Cohen should change the lineup based on people's skill sets, then that's one thing. But to say the players should adjust based on where they are hitting in the lineup is ludicrous.

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Originally Posted by I seen it dawg

National league lineup changes everyday.

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Hence why I said, "This goes back to his time in the AL with consistent DH's".

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Originally Posted by RAYn_Man

If Cohen put Frazier in the 4 hole, he would still hit like Adam Frazier. But to say the players should adjust based on where they are hitting in the lineup is ludicrous.

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Exactly right. See: Brett Pirtle was our cleanup hitter during our Omaha run year

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Originally Posted by I seen it dawg

Then you're gonna have a hard time fielding a full team. I get what you are saying about being mentally tough but moving around does affect some players, not all but some, and it's the smart thing to do to identify them and either force them into a move and be consistent with it or make them comfortable. It all has to work in the framework of the entire offense.

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I disagree. We recruited plenty of the type 2 players you are talking about though. And that's a large part of why we saw it fall apart last year.

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To me it's not black and white. You can do what 34 did which is knowing the offense will better with a move and forcing it in them- but you can't bounce them around while doing it - OR you can placate them bc you know the offense will be better with them hitting in their comfort spot. All about what's going to make the offense click better.

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Sure it can be done both ways. But you've got to be true to who you are -- and recruit who you are. We got away from that and it cost us dearly. I want to get back to it -- and this freshman class has an awful lot of that out of the gate while the juniors are still trying to grow into it(and I'm still not convinced they really have it). Cohen needs the opposite personality type to have success that Polk generally needed, especially later on. That's been well known from day 1. Was well known before he every stepped foot in the door here. He is NOT a coach that can take any group of guys and go win with them. That was proven long ago. He needs his guys. Type 1 players. I'm advocating his guys. He is going to find more/better success being true to himself and recruiting to who he is than he would trying to change who he is so he could coddle "elite" players through adversity.

Look Engie- I'm glad you are/were such a ball of fire Type 1 player- but on a team of 30 guys- you are going to have all types of personalities. Our problem last year was more about youth and lack of talent than it was type 1 vs Type 2. Hell, there are guys that have different personalities when they pitch vs when they hit. Baseball is just different. A good coach learns how his players react to certain situations to get a read on what theycan/will do- that has to be done. I'm just of the opinion that Cohen takes this to a ridiculous extreme.

Again- I'll repeat- we are better this year because we are more experienced and have had an infusion of talent- not because we recruited a bunch of Type A guys

and let's also remember- Cohen had a losing season just 2 years after a NC appearance. Its not like he cant be questioned on his methods because of his 15 year NCAA Tourney streak or anything like that. There are valid concerns in our program and his job is on the line this year. Now then- while a little inconsistent, it looks like he is going to answer the bell and thats great. But everything still isnt rosey

Engie all I want is type one players. But hard to find 35 of them.

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Originally Posted by Coach34

Look Engie- I'm glad you are/were such a ball of fire Type 1 player- but on a team of 30 guys- you are going to have all types of personalities. Our problem last year was more about youth and lack of talent than it was type 1 vs Type 2. Hell, there are guys that have different personalities when they pitch vs when they hit. Baseball is just different. A good coach learns how his players react to certain situations to get a read on what theycan/will do- that has to be done. I'm just of the opinion that Cohen takes this to a ridiculous extreme.

Again- I'll repeat- we are better this year because we are more experienced and have had an infusion of talent- not because we recruited a bunch of Type A guys

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So do you believe in clutch or not? Are you will Jamesing and arguing it doesn't exist? And I disagree with the all types thing. Maybe in the stages of the game prior to when you really recruit. Maybe even in the situations when your recruiting reach is limited. But a program with the ability to cherrypick national talent is not confined by the same limitations. If you are recruiting how you should and doing your due diligence on players, you find the Pollo, etc gamers. Jake Mangum isn't winning games for us strictly by his talent -- he has a little something more. A lot of the freshmen do.

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Originally Posted by engie

So do you believe in clutch or not? Are you will Jamesing and arguing it doesn't exist? And I disagree with the all types thing. Maybe in the stages of the game prior to when you really recruit. Maybe even in the situations when your recruiting reach is limited. But a program with the ability to cherrypick national talent is not confined by the same limitations. If you are recruiting how you should and doing your due diligence on players, you find the Pollo, etc gamers. Jake Mangum isn't winning games for us strictly by his talent -- he has a little something more. A lot of the freshmen do.

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I totally believe in clutch- there is absolutely an "IT factor". But there are levels of "IT" and all types of personalities.

Mangum's Dad was an NFL player. He is talented and comes from a talented family. He is going to be a really good player for us. But ya know what? Mangum doesnt have Hunter Renfroe talent- but will still be better his Fr and Soph years. The thing is- we are doing with Mangum exactly what we should be- batting him 2nd in the order- PH AB's, defense subs to work him in. Thats what u do with a talented Freshman.

Having a guy hit 3rd one day and then 7th the next??? Thats bullshit and bad coaching. Bunting or Fake Bunting with your leading hitter- thats bad coaching. Not playing Cody Brown vs RHP's- thats bad coaching. Not playing Gordon a little more when Lowe is struggling- bad coaching.

We were the WORST team in the SEC last year- Cohen deserves criticism until he proves differently

5 different people starting at Cather.

5 different people have batted in the 2 hole, four in the 3-hole, and three in the 4-hole. That's a lot of churn in the heart of your order. I can see changing the 6-9 or even the 5 hole a little, but having to experiment that much during games isn't what I'd ideally like to see.

I can tell you my 1, 3, and 4 hole probably wouldn't change all year. Robson, Kruger, Collins...on this team Cody would be my 2-hole. 1-4 would be set. Anytime you get Robson or Cody on the bags with Kriger and Collins coming up you're in business. I could see switching Collins and Low in the 4/5 holes, but otherwise that lineup would likely produce more runs than any other 1-4 combo.

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Originally Posted by Political Hack

5 different people starting at Cather.

5 different people have batted in the 2 hole, four in the 3-hole, and three in the 4-hole. That's a lot of churn in the heart of your order. I can see changing the 6-9 or even the 5 hole a little, but having to experiment that much during games isn't what I'd ideally like to see.

I can tell you my 1, 3, and 4 hole probably wouldn't change all year. Robson, Kruger, Collins...on this team Cody would be my 2-hole. 1-4 would be set. Anytime you get Robson or Cody on the bags with Kriger and Collins coming up you're in business. I could see switching Collins and Low in the 4/5 holes, but otherwise that lineup would likely produce more runs than any other 1-4 combo.

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exactly- outstanding post. If you cant understand that- I'm sorry

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Originally Posted by Todd4State

#Cohening #Meddler

I've been telling people for how long now that Cohen isn't the only one to make changes to the lineup?

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But isn't Cohen supposed to meddle? He's the head coach. That's what we pay him the big bucks for.

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Originally Posted by RocketDawg

But isn't Cohen supposed to meddle? He's the head coach. That's what we pay him the big bucks for.

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I don't think meddle is used as a term of endearment in this case.

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Originally Posted by Political Hack

5 different people starting at Cather.

5 different people have batted in the 2 hole, four in the 3-hole, and three in the 4-hole. That's a lot of churn in the heart of your order. I can see changing the 6-9 or even the 5 hole a little, but having to experiment that much during games isn't what I'd ideally like to see.

I can tell you my 1, 3, and 4 hole probably wouldn't change all year. Robson, Kruger, Collins...on this team Cody would be my 2-hole. 1-4 would be set. Anytime you get Robson or Cody on the bags with Kriger and Collins coming up you're in business. I could see switching Collins and Low in the 4/5 holes, but otherwise that lineup would likely produce more runs than any other 1-4 combo.

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It would be four guys at catcher or less had Lovelady not been injured. Same with Kruger really because then I would highly suspect we wouldn't have used Stovall behind the plate had our main guys remained healthy.

The thing about this team is we have some guys that have some wide offensive splits- it absolutely makes sense to move Rooker and Humphreys up in the lineup against LH pitching because they kill it. It makes sense to drop them down in the order when they face right handed pitching just like it makes sense to move Cody Brown up against RH pitching. So, I don't know that keeping the same guys 1-5 makes the best sense with our current team.