MSU 2 Deep Talent Level vs Ole Miss 2 Deep talent level

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Originally Posted by CadaverDawg

For people to make a blanket statement about a recruiting number equalling success, is garbage. You'll see a perfect example up North this year. That team is talented enough to compete for a Title, but Bc Freeze hasn't developed a QB in 4 years, they won't sniff one.

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I don't think people are just saying recruiting # equal success but elite talent + elite coaching = National Championships. That's what been proven not opinion. You can have elite recruiting + mediocre coaching & still win games. You can also have mediocre recruiting + elite coaching & still win games. To win it all up until this point you have needed elite recruiting + elite coaching. Also those schools with elite recruiting tend to have the highest # of kids drafted. So it's not just HS recruiting guys who think those guys are elite kids.

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Originally Posted by Ifyouonlyknew

What is your sample size?

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Thousands of games over the course of a decade or so. The difference in that sample size and stating that the msu's, tcu's, baylor's, and even oregon's of the CFB world can't win a title is that there is only 1 champion each season, and when discussing direct natty implications, you are narrowing the games down a handful.

I would love to come up with a new rating of the class from 3 years ago, and see where guys stand. In other words, would Rob Knemdiche be getting the praise he's getting if ratings came out during the player's Jr year of college? No. His stats are slightly better (and worse in some key categories) than Chris Jones. Yes, the same Chris Jones that is getting called out for a lack of motor last year. So while playing about 2/3 of the snaps Knem played, and playing without a motor, our Jobes is still equal to #13 overall college football player Knemdiche. But yea, those rankings out of high school tell the tale**

imo, you shouldn't be given anything based on what you were before college. Kbemdiche may very well be talented enough to be the best DT in football, but if he goes out and doesn't get the job done on Saturday's, he doesn't deserve the "best DT" award. People can pass you by out working you and making plays

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Originally Posted by dawgs

Thousands of games over the course of a decade or so. The difference in that sample size and stating that the msu's, tcu's, baylor's, and even oregon's of the CFB world can't win a title is that there is only 1 champion each season, and when discussing direct natty implications, you are narrowing the games down a handful.

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That's just it I never said they can't win a title. I said they haven't won a title & until they do guys like Bo & others who swear by the recruiting rankings will continue to beat that drum because they haven't been proven wrong. Good seasons aren't Championship seasons & that's what recruitniks will continue to hang their hats on.

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Originally Posted by CadaverDawg

I would love to come up with a new rating of the class from 3 years ago, and see where guys stand. In other words, would Rob Knemdiche be getting the praise he's getting if ratings came out during the player's Jr year of college? No. His stats are slightly better (and worse in some key categories) than Chris Jones. Yes, the same Chris Jones that is getting called out for a lack of motor last year. So while playing about 2/3 of the snaps Knem played, and playing without a motor, our Jobes is still equal to #13 overall college football player Knemdiche. But yea, those rankings out of high school tell the tale**

imo, you shouldn't be given anything based on what you were before college. Kbemdiche may very well be talented enough to be the best DT in football, but if he goes out and doesn't get the job done on Saturday's, he doesn't deserve the "best DT" award. People can pass you by out working you and making plays

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IMO we do have a way to rerank them. It's called the NFL draft.

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Originally Posted by Ifyouonlyknew

I don't think people are just saying recruiting # equal success but elite talent + elite coaching = National Championships. That's what been proven not opinion. You can have elite recruiting + mediocre coaching & still win games. You can also have mediocre recruiting + elite coaching & still win games. To win it all up until this point you have needed elite recruiting + elite coaching. Also those schools with elite recruiting tend to have the highest # of kids drafted. So it's not just HS recruiting guys who think those guys are elite kids.

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You may not be saying that, but Bo is. He correlates recruiting ranking to whether you have a shot at a Title. And I will never ever agree with that, because the recruiting ranking is not 100% accurate (or even close), it doesn't re-rank them the year the kids actually take the field, and it doesn't factor in coaching or development at all.

So what I'm saying is, if Ole Miss has the #1 class for 4 straight years, they still may not sniff a Title because Freeze may not be a good enough coach or developer... AND, if those players don't show up to play, they're not the "best recruiting class in the country". Meanwhile, Mullen could recruit the #20 class for 4 straight years, and compete for a Title if he is a good coach, and developer. Because in a redshirt program where players aren't having to contribute until their So or Jr years, it is very easy to turn a Cory Thomas type of recruit (high 3 star), into a DT that is every bit as good or better than Knemdiche or Channing Ward or whoever Mr 5 star recruit is. So does that mean Knemdiche or Ward was still a better recruit? Bc that's what you're telling me. That it's more about what they're ranked out of high school, than the caliber of player that takes the field on Saturday.

It's why our team is finishing higher than OM every year.

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Originally Posted by Ifyouonlyknew

IMO we do have a way to rerank them. It's called the NFL draft.

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Even the draft is based on potential at times though. Tunsil could sit this season out and still be drafted first round. Does that still make him a great recruit for OM? 1 season played where he sat out 1/3 of it with injury? Not in my book.

I see what you're saying, I just hope you see where I'm coming from.

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Originally Posted by CadaverDawg

You may not be saying that, but Bo is. He correlates recruiting ranking to whether you have a shot at a Title. And I will never ever agree with that, because the recruiting ranking is not 100% accurate (or even close), it doesn't re-rank them the year the kids actually take the field, and it doesn't factor in coaching or development at all.

So what I'm saying is, if Ole Miss has the #1 class for 4 straight years, they still may not sniff a Title because Freeze may not be a good enough coach or developer... AND, if those players don't show up to play, they're not the "best recruiting class in the country". Meanwhile, Mullen could recruit the #20 class for 4 straight years, and compete for a Title if he is a good coach, and developer. Because in a redshirt program where players aren't having to contribute until their So or Jr years, it is very easy to turn a Cory Thomas type of recruit (high 3 star), into a DT that is every bit as good or better than Knemdiche or Channing Ward or whoever Mr 5 star recruit is. So does that mean Knemdiche or Ward was still a better recruit? Bc that's what you're telling me. That it's more about what they're ranked out of high school, than the caliber of player that takes the field on Saturday.

It's why our team is finishing higher than OM every year.

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I don't disagree with any of what you said. I said so far elite recruiting + elite coaching = National Championships. That's been proven. Some team is going to have to break the mold before Bo & others change their stance. Is it fair? No but until someone proves them otherwise they can make those claims.

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Originally Posted by CadaverDawg

Even the draft is based on potential at times though. Tunsil could sit this season out and still be drafted first round. Does that still make him a great recruit for OM? 1 season played where he sat out 1/3 of it with injury? Not in my book.

I see what you're saying, I just hope you see where I'm coming from.

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Yea I get that part too & understand there is no perfect way to explain it. If a kid is a top 5 recruit & then is a top 5 draft pick doesn't he have to be considered a great recruit for the school? Isn't what the team done irrelevant to the individuals success? Case in point: Chris Jones was a 5* recruit, he has a great year this year & is a top 10 pick but we finish 8-4. Wouldn't you consider Chris a great recruit for MSU?

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Originally Posted by CadaverDawg

You're still missing the point, Bo! YOU are claiming we aren't recruiting consistently in the top 15-20 based ON A RECRUITING RANKING. Meanwhile, our list of players getting drafted says we ARE recruiting that high. Quit letting a number, generated by a bunch of keyboard heroes that watch a guy's highlight film or get their info from Yancy Porter, tell you how well we recruit! Until you quit basing "elite" recruiters on a number on a website, you'll never stop being wrong about this.

Paul Johnson's "ranking" has been 20+ points lower than Mullen' s yet he spanked Mullen, and was a close loss to FSU from being in the playoffs. I bet he would also tell you you're crazy if you think "43rd ranked class on 247" is accurate...it's not even close. You can't base a team's success on a number that is partially based on how many traditional powers offered a kid. That doesn't define "elite" recruiters, and only leaves you with a chicken vs egg debate on how good a player truly is.

Quit basing your "facts" on fictitious rankings.

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This guy gets it^^^^


And Book this Bo: Before 2020 a school will win the National Championship....that if you had made this prediction in 2010 would have generated a "way to be positive little guy" chuckle and in 2005 would've generated an outright guffaw. Book it. Will it be MSU? I hope so, but it doesn't have to be us for this prediction to be any less true. Book it.

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Originally Posted by BulldogBear

This guy gets it^^^^


And Book this Bo: Before 2020 a school will win the National Championship....that if you had made this prediction in 2010 would have generated a "way to be positive little guy" chuckle and in 2005 would've generated an outright guffaw. Book it. Will it be MSU? I hope so, but it doesn't have to be us for this prediction to be any less true. Book it.

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Also, I predict that a school will win the national championship by 2020 that:

1) Has no one on their team from a recruiting class any higher than 15th

2) Has players on their team from at least two classes not in the Top 20, one of which close to if not worse than 30th.

3) Has no 5 star recruits on their team

Book it

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Originally Posted by Ifyouonlyknew

IMO we do have a way to rerank them. It's called the NFL draft.

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I disagree with this. I don't care if a player goes in the first round, if he didn't PRODUCE for his college team, then he didn't earn a high ranking. RNk and Chris Jones are good examples. Hell, Treadwell too. Of course, all 3 have another year (or two) to earn those recruiting stars.

Although it's not accurate for individual player rerankings, the best reranking for team recruiting is WINS.

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Originally Posted by BulldogBear

Also, I predict that a school will win the national championship by 2020 that:

1) Has no one on their team from a recruiting class any higher than 15th

2) Has players on their team from at least two classes not in the Top 20, one of which close to if not worse than 30th.

3) Has no 5 star recruits on their team

Book it

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I'll take that bet all day long. Name the terms.

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Originally Posted by 5 Star

I'll take that bet all day long. Name the terms.

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Long way out unless I win earlier. I've got some ideas. Don't know where you live so are you able to get to any games each year?

Yeah, I'll take that bet too

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Originally Posted by Ifyouonlyknew

IMO we do have a way to rerank them. It's called the NFL draft.

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So guys like Tommie Frazier (one of my all time favorites) would be rated a bust. Nfl draft doesn't always tell the tale

[QUOTE=Ifyouonlyknew;396346] I said so far elite recruiting + elite coaching = National Championships.

Les Miles disagrees. He knows he is not an elite coach

[QUOTE=Alldawg;396455]

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Originally Posted by Ifyouonlyknew

I said so far elite recruiting + elite coaching = National Championships.

Les Miles disagrees. He knows he is not an elite coach

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neither is Chizik

[QUOTE=Alldawg;396455]

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Originally Posted by Ifyouonlyknew

I said so far elite recruiting + elite coaching = National Championships.

Les Miles disagrees. He knows he is not an elite coach

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He's been at LSU for 11yrs. He's won 10+ games 7x in those 11yrs. He's never won less 8 games. He's crazy & weird but his record speaks for itself.

[QUOTE=Coach34;396467]

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Originally Posted by Alldawg

neither is Chizik

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Malzahn ran that ship Chizik was just the face.