This is huge and real.Quote:
Originally Posted by engie
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This is huge and real.Quote:
Originally Posted by engie
Because bball has 5 players and is easier to turn around IMO. Look, I'm not saying I've given up on Ray. But at least Cohen had a history to base things on. It's a terrible comparison.Quote:
Originally Posted by engie
I hope Ray can get it going, and I'm not ready for us to get rid of him. I just have a feeling that we aren't going to turn it around without getting a true playmaker/gamechanger type...and I don't see him on our team or in our recruiting class. Does it mean it can't happen...nope.
Hopefully it does. Too early to count Ray out...but after 3 years we should have a good idea.
What bothers the most is the bullshit on Malik Newman. I can handle people not having the foresight to understand that we will be better next year. Posters sell furniture, refinance loans, work as policemen, etc- and arent trained in team management.
But the anti-Ray bunch keeps pushing the "Ray HASSSSSSS to sign Newman to survive" mantra around to everyone. The say this, knowing all along and full well we arent going to sign Newman because we dont recruit the same way under our new regime. We have no chance at him.
Engie has a good point- what the other coaches around the league are doing currently isnt working. High-rated "athletes" from around the South arent getting it done on the basketball court these days. We'll see what Ray is made of these next 2 years. I expect us to be a solid basketball team next year. Rebuilding is done come April
I agree with this. The "Ray has to get Newman" crowd is just ridiculous. I am completely behind Ray, but I don't feel like I should be called out if I'm not overly confident that he will get us back to the tourney one day. I hope he will, but I easily see how some people don't think he will. I just wish everyone would give him another year and then start coming to conclusions....after what he took over, he deserves 3 years at least.Quote:
Originally Posted by Coach34
Not when you are looking at it in snapshots of the current situation. Year 2 vs year 2 is as similar as you can possibly imagine. Year 1 as well. The situations they walked into as well. A large portion of the blue hair fanbase's reaction and sabotage as well. What they had done previously as immaterial to what they were/are doing at that point in time at MSU. Saying "well Cohen had a track record" is true -- but it didn't guarantee his success at MSU any more than the last 10 "proven" midmajor and even big 6(see Andersen, Mike) basketball coaches to ultimately fail all around the SEC. And it's been about that many since one came in and had sustained, legitimate success. Fact is -- a whole people were off the Cohen bandwagon those first 2 years. And Ray is experiencing the same thing to an even greater extent.Quote:
Originally Posted by CadaverDawg
My problem in all this is with the judgement of Ray at this point. It's still too soon. We didn't know for sure if he would have success here when we hired him -- and we still don't know either way. Next year will tell us. It took Tom Crean 4 years after all. And Frank Martin is still behind Ray with a similar inherent situation.
Maybe so. We will see.Quote:
I hope Ray can get it going, and I'm not ready for us to get rid of him. I just have a feeling that we aren't going to turn it around without getting a true playmaker/gamechanger type...and I don't see him on our team or in our recruiting class. Does it mean it can't happen...nope.
Exactly right. But "having a feeling he isn't" is kinda already counting him out isn't it?Quote:
Hopefully it does. Too early to count Ray out...but after 3 years we should have a good idea.
I'm approaching it as a clean canvas. Next year is, for all intents and purposes, the "real" beginning to his career at MSU for me. He struggles and misses the NIT, I'll be ready to go another direction. Until then, it's a clean canvas -- and nothing that happened in years one or two mattered.
I was ready for Stans to go and I have doubts about Ray's ability to turn it around. Grouping the two crowds together doesn't accomplish anything and only distracts from the issue of finding a solution to better our basketball program. I hope Ray gets it right and we can compete to go .500 in the SEC next year, but if we're this late into year three without a single conference road win I think it's going to be pretty obvious to everyone.Quote:
Originally Posted by engie
To some, it's already becoming obvious. I've avoided saying this because it almost sounds "anti-discipline" and that's not my intent... but... The mitaristic management of a team that participates in a sport consumed by premadonnas is not going to work. plain and simple. You've got to walk a line to be successful in major college basketball and Ray isn't walking it right now. He's acting like he's Coach K and can just afford to toss anyone aside who crosses him. He can't. He's got to find a better way to manage the roster and right now he's failing miserably in that department... and THAT department is by get the most important one to manage.
I don't mind losing Newmann to Kentucky or UNC or some history rich tradition school . I somewhat understand why a player would pass up an opportunity to play in state for that type of exposure. But if he signs with LSU that would really just piss me off. Why go to another SEC school that we have been just as competitive as the past 20 years?
How do you know it isn't going to work? What proof do you have?Quote:
Originally Posted by Political Hack
I think it's ridiculous to be passing judgement right now either way. The margin for error is simply too great. "Doubting his ability to turn it around" while still in the rebuild before he's had a legitimate chance to turn it around is fair to him/the basketball program in what way?
No.Quote:
Originally Posted by engie
Not to me.
So how many scholarship players will we have next fall? 11? Why not 13?
My point is that Ray can't take that many gambles on players that are not elligable to play.
We need a full roster, get some JUCO's or its going to be year 4 and he's fired.
Not when the previous coach has literally left you 1 player out of a possible 13 to rebuild withQuote:
Originally Posted by CadaverDawg
Year 1- Ray loses Smith and Zedakis during the summer to drugs. It's too late then to go sign someone to replace them. Then he loses Lewis and Steele to season ending injuries. Ray also lost 2 of his own signees to ACL's. Just a cluster**** of a season.
Year 2- Lewis smokes his way off the team. Steele demands to redshirt. Ray loses 2 of his best 5 players before the season starts and it's too late to replace them.
Daniels doesnt complete his coursework in the last Summer session. The NCAA screws us on N'Doye.
You can say it doesnt much to rebuild in basketball- but when you face the shit Ray has faced- it's not that simple.
Because they are doing what is required to get his signatureQuote:
Originally Posted by HailState39110
It's going to take a spark much like Mullen in 09' for our program to change course. Otherwise, we are still going to have a bad team next year and I'm not satisfied with still being a bad team. I see no other way but to replace Ray and bring in someone who can create excitement. It can be done. I think P. Hack said it best when he stated " we are going nowhere fast"... Not what you wAnt to see from a second year coach.
Which leads me to my next question, why aren't we doing everything we can to get his signature? I've said this before . College basketball is the dirtiest of them all. If our head coach and administration doesn't want to play 'the game' let's move down to Division 3 or NAIA and start playing Delta State or Belhaven because that's the type of talent we will be bringing in . NEWSFLASH: WE PLAY MAJOR COLLEGE BASKETBALL, START ACTING LIKE ITQuote:
Originally Posted by Coach34
Cohen went 6-24 in the SEC baseball in his 2nd season. We were "going nowhere fast" then also.Quote:
Originally Posted by BogeyGolfer
Engie and I make the comparision because both programs were in need of much bigger rebuilds than the fans realized. And it took longer than we hoped. People get impatient- it's human nature.
Cohen was successful in his. We wont know if Ray will be until next season. LET IT PLAY OUT
several reasons:Quote:
Originally Posted by engie
1) cohen was a proven commodity, whereas ray is absolutely not
2) it's much easier to improve quickly in basketball than baseball (or football) because 1 player can make a huge difference. if we could stick newman (or pick another stud currently playing MBB) on our current roster and let these guys play a supporting role to a superstar, we'd be a NIT team minimum. in baseball, even 1 superstar hitter only comes to bat every 9th batter or only pitches every 5th game.
3) ray's recruiting isn't really hinting at a bright future. the fact that we aren't even in the newman race is very very telling (not saying he has to sign him, but we should at minimum be in the discussion and we really aren't). now maybe some of this isn't ray's fault and SS has him on a leash to limit playing the AAU game, but if we aren't playing the AAU game, then we'll never be worth a shit in basketball again.
i said last year that i don't think coach K or anyone else in the world of MBB would have finished with more than 1-2 Ws more than ray did with that squad. ray did a great job maximizing results. HOWEVER, i believe coach K and other elite coaches would have us improved in year 2. sure we've had some bad breaks, but the core of our young guys returned, we have more scholarship depth than last year, AND our schedule is much easier (at least the non-conference portion). the chance was there to make whatever that tourney below the NIT is called, and THIS YEAR i think a better coach would have gotten us there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Coach34
So, how do you explain Frank Martin?Quote:
Originally Posted by dawgs
Quote:
Originally Posted by dawgs
Response to #1- that "proven commodity" was catching a whole lotta shit at the end of Year 2. There were alot of people losing faith in that "proven commodity" and calling for his head. Short memories around here.
Response to #2- it is unless you have had to make a complete roster overhaul like we have. And Ray has only had 1 full recruiting cycle to get players on the court. The rest were throw-ins after he was hired in April, 2012.
Response to #3- the fact we are not in the running for Newman is because of the direction our AD wants the program to go in. It is no reflection on Ray at all. I'm not saying we'll be successful this way or not- but we are at least "taking a break from the drama" associated with the way or former regime recruited. And it's also why you will see Ray get at least 4 years.
And that guaranteed us success when we were 6-24 in the SEC?Quote:
Originally Posted by dawgs
This is a common misnomer based on an outright lie.Quote:
2) it's much easier to improve quickly in basketball than baseball (or football) because 1 player can make a huge difference. if we could stick newman (or pick another stud currently playing MBB) on our current roster and let these guys play a supporting role to a superstar, we'd be a NIT team minimum. in baseball, even 1 superstar hitter only comes to bat every 9th batter or only pitches every 5th game.
- Why isn't LSU winning big? They signed a 5* SF, a 4* PF, and a 4* PG last year among 6 total signees. Why aren't they lighting the woods on fire? Are we going to pretend Jones took over a worse team there than Ray did at MSU? Probably not, huh?
- Why isn't Arkansas winning big? They signed a 5* PF and high 4* C last year. What gives?
- Why isn't Bama winning big? They signed a high 4* C and high 4* PF last year. What's up with it?
- Why isn't Tennessee winning big? They signed a 5* SG and had a highly-sought transfer from Memphis to go along with all the talent already there. What's their problem?
Do you need me to keep going?
And you base all this on an outright lie.Quote:
3) ray's recruiting isn't really hinting at a bright future. the fact that we aren't even in the newman race is very very telling (not saying he has to sign him, but we should at minimum be in the discussion and we really aren't). now maybe some of this isn't ray's fault and SS has him on a leash to limit playing the AAU game, but if we aren't playing the AAU game, then we'll never be worth a shit in basketball again.