Should Kentucky hold on to win the SEC title these 2 weekends

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Originally Posted by Santiago

The thing is, that some on the board say we cannot just use our past 15 years for comparison because that is not normal for us.
Then we look at the past 40-50 years and we are #11, and moving up on the list of CWS appearances.

It just seems some are trying way to hard here to say MSU is basically less than schools like Kentucky, and that we cannot count the past 12-15 years , unless we count the past 25 years(Polk 2) to bring our average down.

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I think that is why personally, I don't think it is a good idea to make coaching decisions on singular things like "winning at MSU standards". Decision making like that is how end up with Texas A&M football. You have to look much more broadly at what is going on. Were the last two seasons acceptable? No. Were they a) indicators of the health of the program; or b) things that could be addressed by changing an assistant and getting healthy/more experience? The people we pay big money to look at these things said B - and it looks like they made the correct decision. They will look again at the end of this season, and at the end of every season.

But - what I think a number of us are trying to emphasize in this discussion is that college baseball as a whole is a different animal then it was even just a decade ago. More money, better players, more teams being competitive/capable of making post-season and the CWS. Many of those changes will likely mean that we actually have more "drop off" seasons then what we have grown accustomed to over the past 10-15 years. Which means you have to be even smarter about your decision making re: management then you have had to be in the past.

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Originally Posted by basedog

I'm not sure what standard means or at least I don't care if fans say it or not. I care about winning, bottom line, we have a very good baseball program and a very proud program. So what if times have changed, just keep winning and the fact of the matter it's mostly about who is in charge to keep it going. In my mind the goal is to make it to Omaha, it ain't gonna happen every year and I'm ok with this. I don't like to see things that happened the last two years, but I am enjoying the end of this year. Nothing wrong with getting on a coach, ask the haters about Leach who I wasn't crazy about but I didn't constantly bash him either. Lemonis has it going on right now, I'm glad, I may not be a big fan but I do care about Msu, that is my standard! LOL

Man, I need to take a break from ED, it is a message board and opinions matter to get folks to participate.

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AGREE!
To get to Omaha, means every season giving effort in coaching, recruiting, talent, fans , everything. That effort every season lands you in the CWS every few years and if you have a returning team, maybe back to back with good seeding in the super regionals.
Some of it is just that - the matchups in the Supers, getting homefield advantage.

It seems this board, a few posters, cannot allow posters to criticize Lemonis, and yet want him to also succeed as well. We do need a coach driven, and dang if Cohen was not one heck of a driven coach for us and set the tone for this decade run.

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Originally Posted by Santiago

AGREE!
To get to Omaha, means every season giving effort in coaching, recruiting, talent, fans , everything. That effort every season lands you in the CWS every few years and if you have a returning team, maybe back to back with good seeding in the super regionals.
Some of it is just that - the matchups in the Supers, getting homefield advantage.

It seems this board, a few posters, cannot allow posters to criticize Lemonis, and yet want him to also succeed as well. We do need a coach driven, and dang if Cohen was not one heck of a driven coach for us and set the tone for this decade run.

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Cohen was driven but he didn't set the tone. One man did that, Greg Byrne. He told all the oldheads to F off when they tried to tell him who to hire. He let everyone know we were going in a different direction and the LFL boosters weren't going to control the program any longer.

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Originally Posted by BrunswickDawg

I think that is why personally, I don't think it is a good idea to make coaching decisions on singular things like "winning at MSU standards". Decision making like that is how end up with Texas A&M football. You have to look much more broadly at what is going on. Were the last two seasons acceptable? No. Were they a) indicators of the health of the program; or b) things that could be addressed by changing an assistant and getting healthy/more experience? The people we pay big money to look at these things said B - and it looks like they made the correct decision. They will look again at the end of this season, and at the end of every season.

But - what I think a number of us are trying to emphasize in this discussion is that college baseball as a whole is a different animal then it was even just a decade ago. More money, better players, more teams being competitive/capable of making post-season and the CWS. Many of those changes will likely mean that we actually have more "drop off" seasons then what we have grown accustomed to over the past 10-15 years. Which means you have to be even smarter about your decision making re: management then you have had to be in the past.

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100%! Nailed it!

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Originally Posted by StarkVegasSteve

Cohen was driven but he didn't set the tone. One man did that, Greg Byrne. He told all the oldheads to F off when they tried to tell him who to hire. He let everyone know we were going in a different direction and the LFL boosters weren't going to control the program any longer.

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And of course Byrne. I was only talking about coaches. But thank goodness for Byrne at that moment in our school history.

When our fans start explaining to other fans to become complacent by pointing at 20 years ago(Polk 2), then it reminds me of exactly when Byrne took over and all the Polk fans were up in arms he was not bowing to Polk's chosen replacement. It just comes across as that same mindset from those fans back then when Byrne was trying to push us to be better.

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Originally Posted by BrunswickDawg

I think that is why personally, I don't think it is a good idea to make coaching decisions on singular things like "winning at MSU standards". Decision making like that is how end up with Texas A&M football. You have to look much more broadly at what is going on. Were the last two seasons acceptable? No. Were they a) indicators of the health of the program; or b) things that could be addressed by changing an assistant and getting healthy/more experience? The people we pay big money to look at these things said B - and it looks like they made the correct decision. They will look again at the end of this season, and at the end of every season.

But - what I think a number of us are trying to emphasize in this discussion is that college baseball as a whole is a different animal then it was even just a decade ago. More money, better players, more teams being competitive/capable of making post-season and the CWS. Many of those changes will likely mean that we actually have more "drop off" seasons then what we have grown accustomed to over the past 10-15 years. Which means you have to be even smarter about your decision making re: management then you have had to be in the past.

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You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to BrunswickDawg again.

We are a Top 20 program in college baseball. Nobody denies that. But here is where you got to realize where college baseball is.

In college football- there about 5 teams per season that can win it all.

In college baseball- there are about 40 teams per season that can win it all. It's just a much more competitive animal than football or even basketball. So while being Top 20 is great- it doesnt mean that Coastal Carolina or Cal St Fullerton cant be better than you in a given year

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Originally Posted by Santiago

And of course Byrne. I was only talking about coaches. But thank goodness for Byrne at that moment in our school history.

When our fans start explaining to other fans to become complacent by pointing at 20 years ago(Polk 2), then it reminds me of exactly when Byrne took over and all the Polk fans were up in arms he was not bowing to Polk's chosen replacement. It just comes across as that same mindset from those fans back then when Byrne was trying to push us to be better.

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No one is becoming complacent. That's what some aren't understanding. What people are trying to say is that college baseball is in an entirely different space than it was 20 years ago or hell even 5 years ago. More programs care now and will attempt to put competent programs on the field. Just in the last 10 years: Tennessee got their shit together, Auburn got their shit together, A&M got rolling again, Vandy reeled off 2 national championships, Florida reeled off a national championship, Ole Miss reeled off a national championship. The days of us and LSU caring about baseball and that being it are over.

What some are trying to say is that there's no standard. There never was. We just cared when no one else did. And even then, we came up short of even Omaha more times than not. Like Polk went to Omaha 5 times and should've gone AT LEAST 5 more. For the longest time, our fanbase considered us a baseball blue blood when there was no evidence of that other than we cared when 99% of people didn't. I mean just to put into perspective, we hosted a regional EVERY YEAR from 1987-1990 and these were the days when there were no Supers. We converted that into 1 trip to Omaha. ONE. Our fanbase today would have fired Polk for that.

Dont get pissy with me about being in the Top 5 of the SEC and then turn around and be pissy when I point out Kentucky may be about to have more regular season SEC titles than us. You cant have it both ways

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Originally Posted by Coach34

We are a Top 20 program in college baseball. Nobody denies that. But here is where you got to realize where college baseball is.

In college football- there about 5 teams per season that can win it all.

In college baseball- there are about 40 teams per season that can win it all. It's just a much more competitive animal than football or even basketball. So while being Top 20 is great- it doesnt mean that Coastal Carolina or Cal St Fullerton cant be better than you in a given year

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This. We are a top 20 program and I would add imo that we are a historic program in college baseball due to our success and turning the SEC into a national power. Baseball is just so different from the other sports. You never know from year to year who will win it all, when in football it generally comes down to 5-6 teams, in basketball probably 10-12, but in baseball at least 40 teams have a shot. It's a year to year thing in baseball and you have to judge the status of the program that way.

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Originally Posted by Coach34

Dont get pissy with me about being in the Top 5 of the SEC and then turn around and be pissy when I point out Kentucky may be about to have more regular season SEC titles than us. You cant have it both ways

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More regular season titles in an arbitrary period you choose in order to make your stat true, right?

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Originally Posted by StarkVegasSteve

No one is becoming complacent. That's what some aren't understanding. What people are trying to say is that college baseball is in an entirely different space than it was 20 years ago or hell even 5 years ago. More programs care now and will attempt to put competent programs on the field. Just in the last 10 years: Tennessee got their shit together, Auburn got their shit together, A&M got rolling again, Vandy reeled off 2 national championships, Florida reeled off a national championship, Ole Miss reeled off a national championship. The days of us and LSU caring about baseball and that being it are over.

What some are trying to say is that there's no standard. There never was. We just cared when no one else did. And even then, we came up short of even Omaha more times than not. Like Polk went to Omaha 5 times and should've gone AT LEAST 5 more. For the longest time, our fanbase considered us a baseball blue blood when there was no evidence of that other than we cared when 99% of people didn't. I mean just to put into perspective, we hosted a regional EVERY YEAR from 1987-1990 and these were the days when there were no Supers. We converted that into 1 trip to Omaha. ONE. Our fanbase today would have fired Polk for that.

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At this point, I am not sure who said what or how many fans say this or that.
I am at the point of now asking "who's on first" ***

There are fans with the bar set high after the NC.
Then maybe fans like me that want our NC coach to be here a while and build a great legacy, but the past 2 years raised some red flags to the point of being critical even in this season. Basically not ready to let my guard down about him, and concerned what can he build next season.

I will say one of the things I love about college baseball , and MSU baseball, is watching new guys come in the program and improve over a season, and then the next season. That is a real enjoyment of the college game.
We saw guys regress on the mound, and all that stuff. I hope we keep Parker for as long as possible. He is the turnaround this year.

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Originally Posted by Commercecomet24

This. We are a top 20 program and I would add imo that we are a historic program in college baseball due to our success turning the SEC into a national power. Baseball is just so different from the other sports. You never know from year to year who will win it all, when in football it generally comes down to 5-6 teams, in basketball probably 10-12, but in baseball at least 40 teams have a shot. It's a year to year thing in baseball and you have to judge the status of the program that way.

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And that's a major change from what it used to be. From the 60s to the mid 80s it was Texas, USC, Miami, ASU and a couple of others and that's it. Interestingly, from 1979-1985 we were almost the lone SEC CWS participant. Bama in '83 was the only other team to get to Omaha. Then LSU jumped in in '86, UGA broke thru in '87, and we were off to the races in '90 when we had 3 SEC teams for the first time (LSU, MSU, UGA) and UGA won the first SEC natty.

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Originally Posted by Santiago

At this point, I am not sure who said what or how many fans say this or that.
I am at the point of now asking "who's on first" ***

There are fans with the bar set high after the NC.
Then maybe fans like me that want our NC coach to be here a while and build a great legacy, but the past 2 years raised some red flags to the point of being critical even in this season. Basically not ready to let my guard down about him, and concerned what can he build next season.

I will say one of the things I love about college baseball , and MSU baseball, is watching new guys come in the program and improve over a season, and then the next season. That is a real enjoyment of the college game.
We saw guys regress on the mound, and all that stuff. I hope we keep Parker for as long as possible. He is the turnaround this year.

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You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Santiago again.

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Originally Posted by BrunswickDawg

And that's a major change from what it used to be. From the 60s to the mid 80s it was Texas, USC, Miami, ASU and a couple of others and that's it. Interestingly, from 1979-1985 we were almost the lone SEC CWS participant. Bama in '83 was the only other team to get to Omaha. Then LSU jumped in in '86, UGA broke thru in '87, and we were off to the races in '90 when we had 3 SEC teams for the first time (LSU, MSU, UGA) and UGA won the first SEC natty.

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Yeah those great USC teams under Rod Dedeaux and Arizona State with Bobby Winkles and then Jim Brock. We lived in Mesa, AZ from '69-'76 and ASU baseball was huge there. I've still got an old sun devil hat somewhere. There was this little pitcher at ASU we used to go watch named Ed Bane. Dude was lefty and threw hard and nobody could hit. Was a great college pitcher but never carried over to mlb success. Bruns you making me go back deep in my memories now, lol!

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Originally Posted by BrunswickDawg

I think that is why personally, I don't think it is a good idea to make coaching decisions on singular things like "winning at MSU standards". Decision making like that is how end up with Texas A&M football. You have to look much more broadly at what is going on. Were the last two seasons acceptable? No. Were they a) indicators of the health of the program; or b) things that could be addressed by changing an assistant and getting healthy/more experience? The people we pay big money to look at these things said B - and it looks like they made the correct decision. They will look again at the end of this season, and at the end of every season.

But - what I think a number of us are trying to emphasize in this discussion is that college baseball as a whole is a different animal then it was even just a decade ago. More money, better players, more teams being competitive/capable of making post-season and the CWS. Many of those changes will likely mean that we actually have more "drop off" seasons then what we have grown accustomed to over the past 10-15 years. Which means you have to be even smarter about your decision making re: management then you have had to be in the past.

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Rep given

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Originally Posted by Quaoarsking

More regular season titles in an arbitrary period you choose in order to make your stat true, right?

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Well, We can even shorten it to a generation of 20 years and it still applies. What happened in the 80's isnt really relevant or impactful at this point. Instead of whining about the metric used- pointing out that Kentucky is about to have more regular season titles than us in recent memory should be a wake-up call to some people. But I see instead of waking up- we want to pull a Rebel and talk about how awesome we were in the good ol days

and to also add to Bruns excellent post- Coaches are having to almost completely rebuild their roster year after year now. Good players no longer stay because they are getting the PT they think they deserve- they are moving around for more money. A Freshman you are developing may just up and leave to go somewhere else instead of being patient. Major roster changes happen every year now. That also leads to more volatile outcomes instead of being steady. LSU and Fla played for the title 11 months ago- now both on the Regional bubble and fighting for a spot just to make it

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Originally Posted by Coach34

and to also add to Bruns excellent post- Coaches are having to almost completely rebuild their roster year after year now. Good players no longer stay because they are getting the PT they think they deserve- they are moving around for more money. A Freshman you are developing may just up and leave to go somewhere else instead of being patient. Major roster changes happen every year now. That also leads to more volatile outcomes instead of being steady. LSU and Fla played for the title 11 months ago- now both on the Regional bubble and fighting for a spot just to make it

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And at least LSU has the excuse that they lost definitely one, maybe two, once in a generation type players. It's just so difficult to build any kind of sustainable program in the NIL era. Makes what DVH does at Arkansas all that more impressive.

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Originally Posted by StarkVegasSteve

And at least LSU has the excuse that they lost definitely one, maybe two, once in a generation type players. It's just so difficult to build any kind of sustainable program in the NIL era. Makes what DVH does at Arkansas all that more impressive.

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DVH is the modern Ron Polk. His line drive off the shin was a missed foul pop