Man when i grew up in Mississippi i knew some crooked sheriff's but this dude from

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07-24-2023, 09:31 AM
Johnson85

Quote:

Originally Posted by the_real_MSU_is_us

Fun fact: being a police officer is actually the 22nd most dangerous career field after things like being a garbage man, roofer, traffic cop, USP delivery driver, etc. (https://www.ishn.com/articles/112748...-united-states)

FBI places it as the 18th most dangerous job. (https://usafacts.org/articles/how-ma...-line-of-duty/)

...They get away with behaviors we'd never allow from those working in the ACTUAL dangerous professions. UPS drivers are more likely to die than cops. But if a UPS driver pulled a gun and shot another driver because "I feared they were going to swerve into me" we'd say they should go to prison. When a cop shoots someone unarmed, "he made a motion that seemed like he might be going for a gun" is accepted as valid reason. It's ridiculous

"Police officer" probably covers a much wider range of jobs than UPS driver. Certainly the risk a UPS driver faces probably varies significantly depending on where they are making deliveries, but it's basically the same job. Lots of police probably have a similar risk profile; lots of safe time with some random, high intensity, dangerous time. But there are cops that are basically as safe as general office workers. And there are cops that are routinely facing dangerous situations. If it's the latter that are involved in most of the questionable shootings (I'm not sure they are), then it's really not a fair comparison to compare them to UPS drivers or loggers.
07-24-2023, 09:56 AM
PMDawg

To address the original post about corrupt "sheriff's" in MS, yes, I'm sure there are plenty of them. But it's not a Mississippi problem. And it's not a problem with just "sheriff's" or other law enforcement. It's a problem in every state and every country and with every profession or position that gives someone even the smallest amount of power. Look at state and federal government officials in the US. Throughout the annals of history, power has corrupted people. It just becomes more visible and disappointing when it involves the people who are supposed to protect us from corruption (as it should). Unfortunately, it's never going away. It's hard work to weed them out and make sure they see justice, but it's important work that has to be done. Anyone who abuses their power should be punished (clergy, teachers, law enforcement, congressmen, senators, VPs, Presidents, local officials, judges, etc.).
07-24-2023, 10:44 AM
lawdawg

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07-24-2023, 11:14 AM
the_real_MSU_is_us

Quote:

Originally Posted by PMDawg

Logging, roofing, picking up garbage etc. aren't more dangerous than being a cop. Cops are just better trained at navigating the danger. They treat every single thing they do as a life and death situation, because for all they know, it is. Just because more people get hurt or killed doing something doesn't mean it's more dangerous. Think about all the rigorous training police go through, and then consider the fact that a lot of people in those positions mentioned never get training (or property safety equipment) at all. I can start a roofing company or a garbage pick up service today. I can literally hire 4 derelicts for $15/hr and have them working tomorrow. It's not a 1 to 1 comparison.

Everything a cop does is dangerous. Most of their time is spent dealing with criminals or unstable people, or simply patrolling high crime areas. Simple traffic stops end lives all the time. They don't know who may be in the vehicle, if they have a warrant, or any other reason they may be scared enough to do something stupid. Then, even if it's a little old lady, there are idiot drivers who can kill or maim them because they are too important to move over a lane or even look up from their phone. Police are trained like the military. They are always looking for who or what can kill them. They survive a lot of situations most of us wouldn't simply because they are trained to. Part of that training is to deal with any perceived threat immediately. Stats about killing "unarmed civilians" are useful to people who want to spin a narrative. Like the Michael Brown story. He was technically unarmed, but he was fighting an officer for his gun and got shot. Police don't go out each morning looking for someone to kill that day. Since I take it you don't have family in the profession, talk to any of them and they'll tell you - they all pray they never have to discharge their weapon. But, their main goal each day is to get home to their family, as it should be. It's a hard way to live. I've never done it, but I have family who has. I will never disparage them, because I haven't experienced what they experience.

First off I agree the media are awful. Great care must be taken to find the sctual facts of the case because they'll pick and choose what to share to generate outrage. That said...

Lots of carefully applied logic going on here. For instance, you say cops are careful and that's why they don't get killed often, but don't you think loggers and a roofer are careful as well?

You say cops get killed in traffic stops "all the time". At the end of the day, this country has 650k cops and about 75 are intentionally killed each year. Roughly 2 cops in MS every 3 years if you adjust for population. And that includes way more than just traffic stops. Is that "all the time"? No. Now yes, ANY traffic stop COULD go south, but so could ANY trip to the grocery store. But the rates of getting shot at the grocery store are so low I don't get to claim that stress as an excuse to harm others out of fear. And cops shouldn't either, not for routine traffic stops. Remember Philando (SP?) Castile? A lawful concealed cary holder pulled over for a routine traffic violation. Was respectful to the officer and told him he was licensed to cary. Cop asked for his ID. He took a hand off the wheel and reached back for his wallet and the cop freaked out and shot him dead. That guy should have NEVER been a cop.

You say cops get "rigorous training", but that's actually the 2nd biggest problem with policing (after the lack of accountability/oversight): police do NOT recieve good training. In my state I could go to a 9 week police academy and be an officer in my city. 9 weeks is a joke to learn department policy, the laws I'll be enforcing, procedures for how to deal with different situations, how to use my firearm/taser/handcuffs/radio etc. Also, I can become a Sheriff Deputy with literally zero training or experience. In both cases, there's no state test, no license, and the continued training and qualifications vary wildly by region and are a joke in mine. In comparison, to do electrical work I have to pass a code test every 3 years. To cut hair, I have to take 2000h of training, pass a state test, and then take continued education and testing to maintain my license.

To clarify, I'm not anti cop. I'm anti "give humans unchecked power". Power corrupts, and the ability to abuse power attracts the worst candidates. Currently, police get Qualified Immunity, control the body cam footage for their department, investigate themselves, have extremely powerful unions, have no Govt regulation (such as licenses an officer can loose if they do something bad) and the local DA has to work with the local police every day, so they are hesitant to pursue legal action against a bad cop. AND, they are poorly trained. That is all a perfect recipe for "bad apples" and incompetent police work

I have nothing bit respect and thanks to the cops who are trying to uphold the laws and make society better. I have nothing but distain for those who use the power of the badge to abuse those without it. I'm saying the overall system is very bad at removing that 2nd group, and that causes the 1st group to catch undeserved hate. We need to revamp the policing system to fix this.
07-24-2023, 12:55 PM
PMDawg

Quote:

Originally Posted by the_real_MSU_is_us

First off I agree the media are awful. Great care must be taken to find the sctual facts of the case because they'll pick and choose what to share to generate outrage. That said...

Lots of carefully applied logic going on here. For instance, you say cops are careful and that's why they don't get killed often, but don't you think loggers and a roofer are careful as well?

You say cops get killed in traffic stops "all the time". At the end of the day, this country has 650k cops and about 75 are intentionally killed each year. Roughly 2 cops in MS every 3 years if you adjust for population. And that includes way more than just traffic stops. Is that "all the time"? No. Now yes, ANY traffic stop COULD go south, but so could ANY trip to the grocery store. But the rates of getting shot at the grocery store are so low I don't get to claim that stress as an excuse to harm others out of fear. And cops shouldn't either, not for routine traffic stops. Remember Philando (SP?) Castile? A lawful concealed cary holder pulled over for a routine traffic violation. Was respectful to the officer and told him he was licensed to cary. Cop asked for his ID. He took a hand off the wheel and reached back for his wallet and the cop freaked out and shot him dead. That guy should have NEVER been a cop.

You say cops get "rigorous training", but that's actually the 2nd biggest problem with policing (after the lack of accountability/oversight): police do NOT recieve good training. In my state I could go to a 9 week police academy and be an officer in my city. 9 weeks is a joke to learn department policy, the laws I'll be enforcing, procedures for how to deal with different situations, how to use my firearm/taser/handcuffs/radio etc. Also, I can become a Sheriff Deputy with literally zero training or experience. In both cases, there's no state test, no license, and the continued training and qualifications vary wildly by region and are a joke in mine. In comparison, to do electrical work I have to pass a code test every 3 years. To cut hair, I have to take 2000h of training, pass a state test, and then take continued education and testing to maintain my license.

To clarify, I'm not anti cop. I'm anti "give humans unchecked power". Power corrupts, and the ability to abuse power attracts the worst candidates. Currently, police get Qualified Immunity, control the body cam footage for their department, investigate themselves, have extremely powerful unions, have no Govt regulation (such as licenses an officer can loose if they do something bad) and the local DA has to work with the local police every day, so they are hesitant to pursue legal action against a bad cop. AND, they are poorly trained. That is all a perfect recipe for "bad apples" and incompetent police work

I have nothing bit respect and thanks to the cops who are trying to uphold the laws and make society better. I have nothing but distain for those who use the power of the badge to abuse those without it. I'm saying the overall system is very bad at removing that 2nd group, and that causes the 1st group to catch undeserved hate. We need to revamp the policing system to fix this.

You've misconstrued some things I said.

I shouldn't have said "all the time", I'll give you that. It does happen, but it goes back to training and procedures keeping it from happening more often. They have partners, they stay in the safest positions, they're armed, they have bullet proof vests, etc. It also goes back to that "being on edge". They're trained to stay aware. They have a right to be on edge all the time. They have to be because they don't know what situation is dangerous and which one isn't. Another difference with those other professions you mention. There aren't a lot of surprises with roofing. Just don't fall off and you're good. But, most of them can't even be bothered to tie off. Like I said, I can hire 4 bums and start roofing tomorrow. I doubt it would be a really safe crew, but all I have to do is buy insurance.

I don't know what you're trying to argue with this "point" about stress. They don't have a right to be stressed? Just because you don't believe they should feel like they are constantly in danger of losing their life? Sorry, but many of them feel that way, and many of them have good reason to. They can't afford to let their guard down, because that's when they'll get hurt or killed. When the crap does hit the fan, they have a split second to make a decision, and that's generally when the training kicks in. That decision can dictate if an officer, a civilian, or a criminal dies. Hesitation can be disastrous. I'll give you this - so can overreaction. So I'm not excusing screw ups. They happen, and that's awful. I don't condone it or pretend it doesn't happen, but I do understand. When it happens it has to be dealt with. If an officer deserves punishment, they should be punished according to the situation. No question. Unfortunately, our media is so screwed up that these situations usually end up getting tried in the court of public opinion based on little to no facts (or even generated narratives). I'm sure we both agree this needs work on a lot of fronts.

The fact that you think 9 weeks of training is all they get tells me I don't need to debate this point with you. Yes, a short academy gets you in the door. Sorry, but no one is lining up for years of school/training BEFORE you get the job that pays you less than a teacher's salary even though you'll be putting your life on the line. Regardless, that academy gets you a foot patrol in a safe area or a desk job. You get an experienced partner or mentor, and you continue training until the day you retire. They are always training. At least my Dad and his coworkers always were, but what do I know?

And, no, I did not say cops don't get killed more often because they are more "careful" than loggers or roofers. I said they are better trained. They are also better equipped and more prepared. They also work in pairs and watch out for each other. I'm sure loggers are careful. I'm sure they do a lot of safety training. But it's not the same. I really don't even know what you're trying to argue here. You keep referring to some "stress" that allows cops to just kill people willy nilly all day. That's not the case. It's apples and oranges anyway. Trees, equipment, and falls are trying to kill loggers. Falls and heat stroke are trying to kill roofers. People are generally what's trying to kill cops. So for cops, if it goes sideways, they generally either kill or get killed. Loggers aren't packing heat so they can shoot a rogue tree or chainsaw. Roofers can't shoot their way out of a fall. I don't even get what you're trying to do here. That's why cops have the tougher job (of figuring out the situation). They are always in a different situation every minute of every day, conditions are constantly changing, AND they have to try to figure out what the people they are dealing with are thinking/intending. So, yes, they're facing a lot of stressors and stay on edge. It only makes sense. They have to be that way if they want to go home every day. A logger doesn't have to worry about what a tree is thinking. Honestly, what's probably the most dangerous thing on his job is his coworkers. So no, a roofer isn't going to be so scared of falling that he tries to shoot the ground and accidentally kills someone. I just can't get in your frame of mind here.
07-24-2023, 01:52 PM
the_real_MSU_is_us

Quote:

Originally Posted by PMDawg

You've misconstrued some things I said.

I shouldn't have said "all the time", I'll give you that. It does happen, but it goes back to training and procedures keeping it from happening more often. They have partners, they stay in the safest positions, they're armed, they have bullet proof vests, etc. It also goes back to that "being on edge". They're trained to stay aware. They have a right to be on edge all the time. They have to be because they don't know what situation is dangerous and which one isn't. Another difference with those other professions you mention. There aren't a lot of surprises with roofing. Just don't fall off and you're good. But, most of them can't even be bothered to tie off. Like I said, I can hire 4 bums and start roofing tomorrow. I doubt it would be a really safe crew, but all I have to do is buy insurance.

I don't know what you're trying to argue with this "point" about stress. They don't have a right to be stressed? Just because you don't believe they should feel like they are constantly in danger of losing their life? Sorry, but many of them feel that way, and many of them have good reason to. They can't afford to let their guard down, because that's when they'll get hurt or killed. When the crap does hit the fan, they have a split second to make a decision, and that's generally when the training kicks in. That decision can dictate if an officer, a civilian, or a criminal dies. Hesitation can be disastrous. I'll give you this - so can overreaction. So I'm not excusing screw ups. They happen, and that's awful. I don't condone it or pretend it doesn't happen, but I do understand. When it happens it has to be dealt with. If an officer deserves punishment, they should be punished according to the situation. No question. Unfortunately, our media is so screwed up that these situations usually end up getting tried in the court of public opinion based on little to no facts (or even generated narratives). I'm sure we both agree this needs work on a lot of fronts.

The fact that you think 9 weeks of training is all they get tells me I don't need to debate this point with you. Yes, a short academy gets you in the door. Sorry, but no one is lining up for years of school/training BEFORE you get the job that pays you less than a teacher's salary even though you'll be putting your life on the line. Regardless, that academy gets you a foot patrol in a safe area or a desk job. You get an experienced partner or mentor, and you continue training until the day you retire. They are always training. At least my Dad and his coworkers always were, but what do I know?

And, no, I did not say cops don't get killed more often because they are more "careful" than loggers or roofers. I said they are better trained. They are also better equipped and more prepared. They also work in pairs and watch out for each other. I'm sure loggers are careful. I'm sure they do a lot of safety training. But it's not the same. I really don't even know what you're trying to argue here. You keep referring to some "stress" that allows cops to just kill people willy nilly all day. That's not the case. It's apples and oranges anyway. Trees, equipment, and falls are trying to kill loggers. Falls and heat stroke are trying to kill roofers. People are generally what's trying to kill cops. So for cops, if it goes sideways, they generally either kill or get killed. Loggers aren't packing heat so they can shoot a rogue tree or chainsaw. Roofers can't shoot their way out of a fall. I don't even get what you're trying to do here. That's why cops have the tougher job (of figuring out the situation). They are always in a different situation every minute of every day, conditions are constantly changing, AND they have to try to figure out what the people they are dealing with are thinking/intending. So, yes, they're facing a lot of stressors and stay on edge. It only makes sense. They have to be that way if they want to go home every day. A logger doesn't have to worry about what a tree is thinking. Honestly, what's probably the most dangerous thing on his job is his coworkers. So no, a roofer isn't going to be so scared of falling that he tries to shoot the ground and accidentally kills someone. I just can't get in your frame of mind here.

A lot of words to not address what the stats and facts say.

You say there's all this training for cops, and maybe your dad's department did. But you can't deny the facts that that varies by locality, and it's not even a state wide standard. You also can't deny that I could be patrolling the street with a gun and a badge as a police officer woth 9 weeks of training, or do the same as a Deputy sheriff with 0 weeks of training. That's a problem, even if I was going to recieve adequate training in the future (I would not in my area).

When it comes to "stress" and how "on edge" officers are, I bring up the fact being a cop is unlikely to get you killed because that "fear for my life" is used to justify all kinds of bad decisions made by cops. My point is not to say cops have an easy job, they dont- it was the bring some perspective on how dangerous it actually is, and this how fearful a cop is justified in being. You're doing 18D underwater chess games of logic to justify cops being on edge, but to also say someone working an actual dangerous job isn't on edge. At the end of the day, if a cop is too jumpy to evaluate the situation before he shoots, he shouldn't be a cop. Agree on that?

I also brought up our lack of licensing, you didn't mention it. Do you agree we should have licensing for cops so bad ones can't just be rehired the next town over?

I also brought up the lack of accountability and how it leads to "bad apples". Do you agree with the problems I mentioned? If not, could you break down why you disagree?

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