We Are In A Bad Situation

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Originally Posted by Todd4State

If it were up to our fans they would be royally ****ing up our baseball program right now

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We have finished 14th and 13th the last 2 seasons. The "program" is already F'ed up.

The question is, who is most likely to fix it? A) The head coach who ruined it + a new pitching coach, or B) a new HC + a new pitching coach?

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Originally Posted by Todd4State

At the end of the day this is a business and that business is winning games. If Lemonis doesn't do it enough he will be gone.

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He's already missed Hoover twice. That's enough loosing for me. 2 awful seasons gets most coach fired in most sports at most schools. Why should we have lower standards?

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Originally Posted by Todd4State

We have too many fans that throw childish temper tantrums because we lose a game

At the end of the day this is a business and that business is winning games..

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Last 2 years...
53-56 overall
18-42 (.300) in sec

So, maybe it's more than losing "a game"

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Originally Posted by msstate7

Last 2 years...
53-56 overall
18-42 (.300) in sec

So, maybe it's more than losing "a game"

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I've lost a lot of respect for Todd. It's not that I disagree with his opinion, it's that he's blatantly lying about what's wrong with our team to pretend like Fox was the only issue. I point out we had other problems, and he lies more acting like Forsythe was the only defensive issue or that there's no way Lemonis could have known Hancock doesn't have the arm for catcher. It's ridiculous.

There's lots of reasons to keep Lemonis. We don't have the buyout. Selmon won't make a hire this early in his tenure. We've reached out to coaches and wouldn't be able to get anyone decent this cycle. We truly think Fox was 80% of our issues and Lemonis may fix the other 20% this off-season.

But lying about what our team's problems are? Calling us short sighted when hes wanting to keep a loosing coach to avoid a transfer or 2 from leaving this off-season? Usi g circus logic to aboud amiti g a point he made was wrong? I can't respect that

At this point there's nothing left to say. He's decided Lemonis can turn it around and thats it. I'm done talking to him about it till next season

The first loss next year there will be tons wanting him gone and the rest will have already stopped caring. It is over. If Selmon doesnt pull this trigger idk if he is the man for this gig

I don't think the transfers will get out of hand. Starkville is a really good place to play college baseball regardless of coach. I don't think it's the coaching staff bringing them in. I think it the 16K fans in the Dude that impresses them. Fire his ass today.

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Originally Posted by BuckyIsAB****

The first loss next year there will be tons wanting him gone and the rest will have already stopped caring. It is over. If Selmon doesnt pull this trigger idk if he is the man for this gig

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Well he's not pulling the trigger. We would already know if he were going to

I'm still in Zac's corner. But have to admit, his shying away from a difficult decision is more than a little disappointing. I want to believe he's the man we hired but he's not off to a great start.

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Originally Posted by Jack Lambert

I think it the 16K fans in the Dude that impresses them. Fire his ass today.

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That?s an added bonus - don?t kid yourself, the elite players only care that you can help get them to the next level and elite players loathe mediocrity and laziness

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Originally Posted by KOdawg1

Well he's not pulling the trigger. We would already know if he were going to

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Appears so. Not good in my opinion. I hope he is great

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Originally Posted by the_real_MSU_is_us

I've lost a lot of respect for Todd. It's not that I disagree with his opinion, it's that he's blatantly lying about what's wrong with our team to pretend like Fox was the only issue. I point out we had other problems, and he lies more acting like Forsythe was the only defensive issue or that there's no way Lemonis could have known Hancock doesn't have the arm for catcher. It's ridiculous.

There's lots of reasons to keep Lemonis. We don't have the buyout. Selmon won't make a hire this early in his tenure. We've reached out to coaches and wouldn't be able to get anyone decent this cycle. We truly think Fox was 80% of our issues and Lemonis may fix the other 20% this off-season.

But lying about what our team's problems are? Calling us short sighted when hes wanting to keep a loosing coach to avoid a transfer or 2 from leaving this off-season? Usi g circus logic to aboud amiti g a point he made was wrong? I can't respect that

At this point there's nothing left to say. He's decided Lemonis can turn it around and thats it. I'm done talking to him about it till next season

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"Blantantly lying"? Really? How many times have I mentioned defense being an issue this year? I mentioned that Alford was an issue along with Forsythe. That's 28 of our 65 errors between the two. One is off the team already and the other is pending. That's truth- and sounds like the issue is being taken care of already to me. Hancock's arm- how come no one talked about him in 2022 when he caught several games for Logan Tanner? Guess you missed Homedawg and CommerceComet saying that the issue was holding onto runners as well. At any rate Lemonis moved Hancock to first base and Hines to DH but I guess he doesn't get credit for that?

I don't think Lemonis should be back to avoid guys off of our team transferring. But if that DID happen you would be bitching about that happening too. At any rate the biggest reason I think he should stay is because if he doesn't work out next year at least we can hire the best coach possible to turn this around instead of some random mid major guy that just wants to get his foot in the door and make bank only to have to do a major search again in three years. Which is likely what would have happened unless we got really lucky.

Your whole post is hilarious. You have NO clue. Zero. None. Exactly the type of short sighted clueless football mentality thinking I was talking about to a tee. And instead of accepting the situation at hand- you call ME a liar? Really? You're a clown. Go get bent. Or thank me later in two years. I don't care- I'll be enjoying MSU baseball regardless.

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Originally Posted by msstate7

Last 2 years...
53-56 overall
18-42 (.300) in sec

So, maybe it's more than losing "a game"

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Yeah. Maybe it's that ERA of 7.00+

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Originally Posted by msstate7

Last 2 years...
53-56 overall
18-42 (.300) in sec

So, maybe it's more than losing "a game"

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Yep, that's a LOT of tantrums over the past 2 years.

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Originally Posted by EdwardDrayton

I'm still in Zac's corner. But have to admit, his shying away from a difficult decision is more than a little disappointing. I want to believe he's the man we hired but he's not off to a great start.

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We hired him for fundraising. For hiring coaches he's very much a Jr AD.

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Originally Posted by Todd4State

Yeah. Maybe it's that ERA of 7.00+

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The buck stops with... foxhall

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Originally Posted by Todd4State

Not sure how else you want me to take this quote- "Players aren?t the best at assessing a coach?s ability. They?re too close and too personally involved in the situation."

At any rate- you're still wrong. Players have the best insight IMO because they are around it the most and they have by far the most to gain or lose by the coach being good or bad. They also know and understand both the game and industry- something many of our fans clearly don't. If it were up to our fans they would be royally ****ing up our baseball program right now and most of them are too ignorant to understand it. Many of them are very close to our program- a lot closer than most of us ever are- and they have more insight into the inner workings of everything more than the casual fan. We have too many fans that throw childish temper tantrums because we lose a game and over half the time they're blaming the wrong thing.

Let me say this- when I'm around MLB players I listen when it comes to baseball.

At the end of the day this is a business and that business is winning games. If Lemonis doesn't do it enough he will be gone. Everyone in baseball from MLB down understands and gets that including Lemonis. It's really not that personal.

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I suggested players are often too personally involved to be able to take a step back and judge objectively. That doesn?t mean those feelings are positive or specifically loyalty.

Also, there is a list a mile long of former players in all sports who royally sucked as coaches, front office people, personnel roles, etc.

You judge a coach on if he wins or not. Period.

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Originally Posted by Todd4State

"Blantantly lying"? Really? How many times have I mentioned defense being an issue this year? I mentioned that Alford was an issue along with Forsythe. That's 28 of our 65 errors between the two. One is off the team already and the other is pending. That's truth- and sounds like the issue is being taken care of already to me. Hancock's arm- how come no one talked about him in 2022 when he caught several games for Logan Tanner? Guess you missed Homedawg and CommerceComet saying that the issue was holding onto runners as well. At any rate Lemonis moved Hancock to first base and Hines to DH but I guess he doesn't get credit for that?

I don't think Lemonis should be back to avoid guys off of our team transferring. But if that DID happen you would be bitching about that happening too. At any rate the biggest reason I think he should stay is because if he doesn't work out next year at least we can hire the best coach possible to turn this around instead of some random mid major guy that just wants to get his foot in the door and make bank only to have to do a major search again in three years. Which is likely what would have happened unless we got really lucky.

Your whole post is hilarious. You have NO clue. Zero. None. Exactly the type of short sighted clueless football mentality thinking I was talking about to a tee. And instead of accepting the situation at hand- you call ME a liar? Really? You're a clown. Go get bent. Or thank me later in two years. I don't care- I'll be enjoying MSU baseball regardless.

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Removing players who've made errors doesn't make the team good defensively. By your logic if we kicked off every player that made an error we'll make 0 errors next year! The reality is that Forsythe is likely replaced by Mershon who's not much better with the glove. Alford played for a reason too- we don't have a 3B.

But let's say we do replace those 2 with defensive studs. Say a 3B that only makes 4 errors all season And a Ss who makes 6. That reduces our errors by 18! But we'd STILL be 10th in the league defensively. That's right, we can replace the 2 players you are putting all the blame on with + defenders and still be a bad defensive team.

Also, may I remind you that it's the HEAD COACHES JOB TO GET GOOD PLAYERS. Just saying "Well Alford sucks at 3rd" doesn't excuse Lemonis because Lemonis is the one who controls the roster.

And Hancock. If his only proglblem was "pitchers not holding the runners" why did the problem of runners stealing go away with Highfill? You'll probably say "because the pitchers got better" but in that case why keep passed ball machine Highfill back at catcher? Why not have Hancock be the starter again? Because his arm is the problem.

You keep making no actual points that stand up to criticism.

just wait til april of 24 and send him off mid season

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Originally Posted by the_real_MSU_is_us

I've lost a lot of respect for Todd. It's not that I disagree with his opinion, it's that he's blatantly lying about what's wrong with our team to pretend like Fox was the only issue. I point out we had other problems, and he lies more acting like Forsythe was the only defensive issue or that there's no way Lemonis could have known Hancock doesn't have the arm for catcher. It's ridiculous.

There's lots of reasons to keep Lemonis. We don't have the buyout. Selmon won't make a hire this early in his tenure. We've reached out to coaches and wouldn't be able to get anyone decent this cycle. We truly think Fox was 80% of our issues and Lemonis may fix the other 20% this off-season.

But lying about what our team's problems are? Calling us short sighted when hes wanting to keep a loosing coach to avoid a transfer or 2 from leaving this off-season? Usi g circus logic to aboud amiti g a point he made was wrong? I can't respect that

At this point there's nothing left to say. He's decided Lemonis can turn it around and thats it. I'm done talking to him about it till next season

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Todd talks out his ass and predicts Omaha just about every year. The only person proclaiming him an expert is himself.

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Originally Posted by the_real_MSU_is_us

Removing players who've made errors doesn't make the team good defensively. By your logic if we kicked off every player that made an error we'll make 0 errors next year! The reality is that Forsythe is likely replaced by Mershon who's not much better with the glove. Alford played for a reason too- we don't have a 3B.

But let's say we do replace those 2 with defensive studs. Say a 3B that only makes 4 errors all season And a Ss who makes 6. That reduces our errors by 18! But we'd STILL be 10th in the league defensively. That's right, we can replace the 2 players you are putting all the blame on with + defenders and still be a bad defensive team.

Also, may I remind you that it's the HEAD COACHES JOB TO GET GOOD PLAYERS. Just saying "Well Alford sucks at 3rd" doesn't excuse Lemonis because Lemonis is the one who controls the roster.

And Hancock. If his only proglblem was "pitchers not holding the runners" why did the problem of runners stealing go away with Highfill? You'll probably say "because the pitchers got better" but in that case why keep passed ball machine Highfill back at catcher? Why not have Hancock be the starter again? Because his arm is the problem.

You keep making no actual points that stand up to criticism.

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Nice strawman to start that off. If you don't think that taking out our two worst defenders out of the lineup and then replacing them with better defenders will improve our defense I don't know what else to tell you. I guess you don't believe in free agency in any sport then by your logic? Mershon was playing out of position. Moving him to second base will also help the defense.

And by the way- the difference between 4th and 10th in the SEC in defense is 0.05 percentage points. Actually we would be tied for 9th in your scenario as the 9th place team had the exact same fielding percentage as the 10th place team liar.

We moved Hancock to first base because Hines was struggling there defensively but we had to keep his bat in. So they moved Hancock back to first base and kept Highfill in at catcher. And yes, holding runners was absolutely an issue. In the second game of the year VMI had a ridiculous 11 SB attempts in one game and 15 for the entire weekend. That's almost half of the entire attempts on Hancock who caught at least once a weekend the rest of the season. How come no one else stole on us like that the rest of the year?

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Originally Posted by RockyDog

Todd talks out his ass and predicts Omaha just about every year. The only person proclaiming him an expert is himself.

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Speaking of talking out of your ass...

By the way I at least bring something to the board unlike you. I'm sure you're used to being worthless and pathetic though.

todd, i get the fact that you have faith in what you think and say but who in the hell is going to locate, evaluate and then get us the better defenders and the several SEC arms that this team needs. Lemo cannot perform these tasks.

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Originally Posted by Todd4State

Nice strawman to start that off. If you don't think that taking out our two worst defenders out of the lineup and then replacing them with better defenders will improve our defense I don't know what else to tell you. I guess you don't believe in free agency in any sport then by your logic? Mershon was playing out of position. Moving him to second base will also help the defense.

And by the way- the difference between 4th and 10th in the SEC in defense is 0.05 percentage points. Actually we would be tied for 9th in your scenario as the 9th place team had the exact same fielding percentage as the 10th place team liar.

We moved Hancock to first base because Hines was struggling there defensively but we had to keep his bat in. So they moved Hancock back to first base and kept Highfill in at catcher. And yes, holding runners was absolutely an issue. In the second game of the year VMI had a ridiculous 11 SB attempts in one game and 15 for the entire weekend. That's almost half of the entire attempts on Hancock who caught at least once a weekend the rest of the season. How come no one else stole on us like that the rest of the year?

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Missouri is 13th in fielding at .970. We're last at .964. Seems close, right? Missouri committed 53 errors, and we committed 63. Since we having fun with percentages, we committed 18.9% more errors than the 13th place team.

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Originally Posted by Todd4State

Nice strawman to start that off. If you don't think that taking out our two worst defenders out of the lineup and then replacing them with better defenders will improve our defense I don't know what else to tell you.

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Lol talk about strawman. Where did I say replacing our worst defenders with better ones wouldn't make us better defensively? On the contrary- literally did the math to show that even with really good defenders replacing the guys you want to pin all blame on we'd STILL be a bad defensive team. YOU are the one making 2 claims: 1) that Forsythe and Alford leaving will fix our defense, and 2) that Lemonis shouldn't be held responsible for this.

Which I'd like to touch more on BTW, I don't see why the head coach shouldn't be held responsible for fielding the worst defense in the conference.

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Originally Posted by Todd4State

Mershon was also playing out of position. Moving him to 2nd will also help with defense

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This is a complete assumption from you

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Originally Posted by Todd4State

We moved Hancock to first base because Hines was struggling there defensively

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Lol I love how you want to say Lemonis isn't to blame for the D and that Alford and Forsythe are our problem defensively then admit that a different year 2 player is so bad defensively we had to pull him and screw up catcher in the process. And Hines is a player we will rely on next year too btw. Again, it's not just Forsythe and Alford that are our problems. And shouldn't maybe Lemonis have noticed that Hines isn't good defensively and had him work on it? This all comes back to Lemo is not having the team ready.

Not trying to get in the middle of a good argument, but the plan is for Mershon to be at second next year. He's not a college ss.

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Originally Posted by msstate7

Missouri is 13th in fielding at .970. We're last at .964. Seems close, right? Missouri committed 53 errors, and we committed 63. Since we having fun with percentages, we committed 18.9% more errors than the 13th place team.

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And this doesn't take into account our home field scorer crediting the pitchers with hits instead of our infield with errors many times this season.

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Originally Posted by Homedawg

Not trying to get in the middle of a good argument, but the plan is for Mershon to be at second next year. He's not a college ss.

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I disagree with this. He showed that he is certainly capable but even better if we have someone more capable.

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Originally Posted by Pancho

todd, i get the fact that you have faith in what you think and say but who in the hell is going to locate, evaluate and then get us the better defenders and the several SEC arms that this team needs. Lemo cannot perform these tasks.

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So signing one of the top rated SS is not a good thing? Lemon is doing this. MLB must not be able to evaluate either as they have him 103rd best prospect in the draft

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Originally Posted by Cowbell

I disagree with this. He showed that he is certainly capable but even better if we have someone more capable.

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As I just posted- we have signed one of the top-rated SS in the country. The plan is for him to be the SS and Mershon to play 2nd

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Originally Posted by Cowbell

I disagree with this. He showed that he is certainly capable but even better if we have someone more capable.

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He can play it in a pinch. But he's a second baseman.

Everyone's getting g lost in the weeds over specifics of 2B and SS.

The fact is, Lemonis has been here 5 seasons and has missed Hoover his last 2. Our defense in year 5 was awful.

Why would we believe he'll turn it around in year 6? Why we believe he'll fix the defense he broke?

We canned Moorhead after 2 years where he made the postseason in both. But Lemonis gets a year 6 after missing the postseason in year 4 and 5? What?

Stands and Jovester were fired in money-making sports due to chaos in their programs making the school look bad. Not because of their coaching records. And neither won a Natty

The Natty gets Lemon a 3rd strike. You can bitch all you want. He is not being fired

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Originally Posted by Coach34

Stands and Jovester were fired in money-making sports due to chaos in their programs making the school look bad. Not because of their coaching records. And neither won a Natty

The Natty gets Lemon a 3rd strike. You can bitch all you want. He is not being fired

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I'm aware he's not getting fired. That doesn't mean we should pretend it's the right call, or lie to ourselves that he'll turn it around.

And I'm aware Moorhead got fired because of the embarrassing Gay-Shrader fight. Point is, there wasn't ONE PERSON ON THIS BOARD saying he should get a year 3, even before that incident. We all saw that the team was not playing up to par under him. Nobody was talking about a specific recruit that would come in and change things, or pinning blame on an assistant, or saying 2 years isn't enough time, or saying "no good coach will come here if we fire him after 2 bowl seasons", we saw he sucked and wanted him gone.

And Revenue vs non revenue?? You know as a coach how weak that argument is. "Football is important so we fire bad coaches, but baseball doesn't make money so let's conceded another year and keep the crappy coach till he's cheap to replace". Do we want to win or not? But again, you can make the argument that "we are better off using the 6M on NIL and swallowing a year of suck in baseball". That's a fine view to have. But it's NOT the same as pretending Lemonis is likely to turn things around. We all know he's over his head just like Moorhead.

Natty doesn't matter anymore and you know it. This is about what's best for us going forward, not what a coach has done in the past.

Honestly I don't even think you believe what you're saying. You've blasted Lemonis plenty throughout the season and there's no new info to change things. I think you're trying g to calm us down and keep the tickets selling and donations rolling in by convincing us we can turn it around. That may be what's best for State but it's not the truth of the situation

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Originally Posted by Cowbell

And this doesn't take into account our home field scorer crediting the pitchers with hits instead of our infield with errors many times this season.

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And that inflated an already high ERA

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Originally Posted by msstate7

And that inflated an already high ERA

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Hard to quantify the error vs hits home cooking because everybody does it to some degree

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Originally Posted by Homedawg

Not trying to get in the middle of a good argument, but the plan is for Mershon to be at second next year. He's not a college ss.

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And yet, our coach is so good at recruiting, using the portal, development, and coaching that he's who we had playing SS. That's kind of the whole point here (which I know you're not arguing against) - Lemonis is horrible at almost every aspect of his job. Firing Fox definitely gives us a boost, but keeping this clown (who we all agree should've fired Fox a year ago) puts a hard cap on that boost.

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Originally Posted by PMDawg

And yet, our coach is so good at recruiting, using the portal, development, and coaching that he's who we had playing SS. That's kind of the whole point here (which I know you're not arguing against) - Lemonis is horrible at almost every aspect of his job. Firing Fox definitely gives us a boost, but keeping this clown (who we all agree should've fired Fox a year ago) puts a hard cap on that boost.

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Seriously that's the thing. Of we played good defense and had a offense that wasn't average to below average in offense (9th in batting average, 7th is SLG, 7th in OBP, 10th in runs) then sure, replacing Fox may be all we need. He'll, of this was year 3 we could actually blame the Cohen-cann-Henderson chaos. But it's year 5.

We are bad on defense, mediocre on offense, make bad in-game decision, make bad roster decisions, make bad NIL decisions (Stinnett) and its YEAR 5. why would I trust Lemonis to kame a good PC hire and fix all the rest?

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Originally Posted by the_real_MSU_is_us

Everyone's getting g lost in the weeds over specifics of 2B and SS.

The fact is, Lemonis has been here 5 seasons and has missed Hoover his last 2. Our defense in year 5 was awful.

Why would we believe he'll turn it around in year 6? Why we believe he'll fix the defense he broke?

We canned Moorhead after 2 years where he made the postseason in both. But Lemonis gets a year 6 after missing the postseason in year 4 and 5? What?

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I don't think anyone has missed the craptastic job the past two years but Lemo did win a NC and that buys you a lot of capital but Lemo has used it all now. Next year is do or die. Make a regional or you are done IMO.

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Originally Posted by the_real_MSU_is_us

Seriously that's the thing. Of we played good defense and had a offense that wasn't average to below average in offense (9th in batting average, 7th is SLG, 7th in OBP, 10th in runs) then sure, replacing Fox may be all we need. He'll, of this was year 3 we could actually blame the Cohen-cann-Henderson chaos. But it's year 5.

We are bad on defense, mediocre on offense, make bad in-game decision, make bad roster decisions, make bad NIL decisions (Stinnett) and its YEAR 5. why would I trust Lemonis to kame a good PC hire and fix all the rest?

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My concern as well. People can point to but look what he did in first 2-3 years but he walked into that situation. Basically he has never been where he is now or what he came into ever in his career so we don't know what will happen. It don't look good from here though. Hoping he turns it around as that is best for our program.

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Originally Posted by Homedawg

Not trying to get in the middle of a good argument, but the plan is for Mershon to be at second next year. He's not a college ss.

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Seems like the best move. Let Cupp and maybe a transfer battle it out at SS. But I think if Cupp comes to school, it'll be under the impression that he's the starter

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Originally Posted by R2Dawg

I don't think anyone has missed the craptastic job the past two years but Lemo did win a NC and that buys you a lot of capital but Lemo has used it all now. Next year is do or die. Make a regional or you are done IMO.

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This. He may fail next season. Wouldn’t surprise anybody if he did. But I think he deserves a shot at it