Basketball program destroyed - long 11 years

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Originally Posted by Coach34

Wrong. People still dont get that we would have hit rock bottom the next year with him as coach. I wish we had so that we wouldnt have this doubt by a few people today. Our admin tried to fix it before it hit rock bottom but instead hired an anchor. Their bad hire to replace him doesnt mean he didnt need to be replaced

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Coach--as time has past--and you being a smart guy--just admit you were wrong on Stans. If he had stayed we would have continued to be a top 5 team in the SEC. the proof is in the pudding--his record would show only 2 (maybe 3) teams had a winning record against Him.. the fact that He beat the living shit at Ole Miss was reason alone to have at least given Him another year. Since then we had not had a Coach come close to Him. We always had a top player and sure He could have done better as a bench Coach. But we would have been a 20 win team every year.

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Originally Posted by Coach34

Meanwhile Western Kentucky is 11-7 and 3-4 in Conference USA under the guy that destroyed the program

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The people that ran him off WHEN they did are the ones that destroyed the program.

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Originally Posted by PGHBulldogBG

Not defending it, but our basketball history has been terrible overall since I remember being old enough to watch State which was in the mid 90s. 2 great seasons under Williams. A great season in 2004 under Stans. A nice tournament SEC tourney run under Stans in 2009. That?s basically the highlights of MSU basketball in my lifetime that I can remember. No matter who takes this job it?s difficult. This year is still less frustrating than the Howland years because we underachieved every year with him. This isn?t really an underachievement we just don?t have the players to compete with Bama or UT. We are going to be looking at a Rick Ray year though if we don?t beat UF Saturday. It?s a must win to keep our team bought in. The schedule gets lighter in February and we need to take advantage of that.

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Over last 45 years yeah, we haven't been a great program but from 90 to mid 2000s we were a really good program. An we can be again with the right leadership/coach, etc. I don't know if Jans if the one or not, we'll see. If we could combine Howland talent getting with Jans floor coaching and maybe a good O asst coach, we are in business.

We gotta give Jans a chance.

I'm not giving up yet overall (this year not happening) but when you've been good a decade or longer, it can happen again.

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Originally Posted by tcdog70

Coach--as time has past--and you being a smart guy--just admit you were wrong on Stans. If he had stayed we would have continued to be a top 5 team in the SEC. the proof is in the pudding--his record would show only 2 (maybe 3) teams had a winning record against Him.. the fact that He beat the living shit at Ole Miss was reason alone to have at least given Him another year. Since then we had not had a Coach come close to Him. We always had a top player and sure He could have done better as a bench Coach. But we would have been a 20 win team every year.

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Lolololol no. Stans was a train wreck and as soon as divisions were eliminated he had nothing to play for. The rest of the SEC decided to invest in basketball and we were done then. We've had a few years of good basketball but our program has never been a top program. 96 was it.

Jans can coach. He?s got to recruit players that have shoot/pass/dribble skill. We have athletes, but they are below average when it comes to skill.

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Originally Posted by NCMSTFAN

Basketball in today's age is easy to get turned around if you have good coaching, the biggest question is can you bring in recruits. I have faith is Jans as a coach, especially on the defensive side of the ball but I just don't know how many highly ranked recruits he can get to Starkville. Our best players are all currently Howlands guys, one thing Howland was doing was bringing in 4 star guys and even a few 5 star. I just don't see Jans getting those guys right now but that's how you win games in this league.

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Look what happened at Bama when they hired Nate Oats. After Bama got rid of Gotfried, basketball was an afterthought over there with Saban dominating the discussion. Look at Pearl at Auburn. Auburn was more of a basketball wasteland than we've ever been and look what has happened with one hire.

We aren't skilled at all. We're not big either, especially at G. We need a portal/JC bonanza in a bad way.

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Originally Posted by R2Dawg

Look what happened at Bama when they hired Nate Oats. After Bama got rid of Gotfried, basketball was an afterthought over there with Saban dominating the discussion. Look at Pearl at Auburn. Auburn was more of a basketball wasteland than we've ever been and look what has happened with one hire.

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Pearl has made Auburn a completely different program. No coach was ever able to recruit there in the past the way Pearl does. He is also a good floor coach and gets the talent to equal wins. He was a great hire for them and their atmosphere is incredible. I’m hoping we will be saying this same thing about Jans and State in a few years.

My position on this hasn't changed. If I had a time machine and my only option was to either allow Stansbury to be fired and endure the last 11 years or keep Stans and the future is unknown, I don't fire Stans.

I would have rolled the dice with him and I bet that our results over the last 11 years would be better than 1 NCAA trip in 11 years and 7 years of losing SEC records. Maybe not, but if I had the power to only make that binary choice - fire or not to fire, I don't fire. Anyone that says otherwise, hates Stans more than they love MSU.

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Originally Posted by Cooterpoot

Lolololol no. Stans was a train wreck and as soon as divisions were eliminated he had nothing to play for. The rest of the SEC decided to invest in basketball and we were done then. We've had a few years of good basketball but our program has never been a top program. 96 was it.

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Hood was leaving as was Sidney, Moultrie, and others. Drugs and rampant disrespect were rotting the program. Stands wasnt fired after going 21-10 on a whim.

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Originally Posted by HancockCountyDog

My position on this hasn't changed. If I had a time machine and my only option was to either allow Stansbury to be fired and endure the last 11 years or keep Stans and the future is unknown, I don't fire Stans.

I would have rolled the dice with him and I bet that our results over the last 11 years would be better than 1 NCAA trip in 11 years and 7 years of losing SEC records. Maybe not, but if I had the power to only make that binary choice - fire or not to fire, I don't fire. Anyone that says otherwise, hates Stans more than they love MSU.

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In hindsight, firing Stans was a pretty big mistake

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Originally Posted by R2Dawg

Look what happened at Bama when they hired Nate Oats. After Bama got rid of Gotfried, basketball was an afterthought over there with Saban dominating the discussion. Look at Pearl at Auburn. Auburn was more of a basketball wasteland than we've ever been and look what has happened with one hire.

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Completely agree, Oats and Pearl are both good coaches but they are also good recruiters, that's the only way you will win in our league. Rounding up a bunch of mid major tough nosed players won't get the job done. I'm hoping Jans can get the recruiting figured out

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Originally Posted by HoopsDawg

In hindsight, firing Stans was a pretty big mistake

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Hiring Rick Ray to replace him was the mistake.
Actually, not having a ****ing clue who you were going to hire when Stansbury was fired was the biggest mistake.

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Originally Posted by HoopsDawg

In hindsight, firing Stans was a pretty big mistake

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No it wasn't. If you think that then it shows you don't know all the behind the scenes stuff that was going on those last few years. I know everyone saw the fight, but Sidney was a constant problem every day. They'd have to drag his ass out of bed to actually get him to show up to practice. Hood tried to quit 3 times his Freshman year. Those are the big things, we also had drug issues, attitude issues, and culture issues. Stans should've been fired after the fiasco in Hawaii. We were going nowhere. Keeping Stans would've been kicking the can down the road a little more. We would've not have been an attractive job in two years just because Stans stayed

The issue has been, is, and will always be that WE DIDN'T HAVE A MF CLUE WHO WE WERE GOING TO HIRE WHEN WE FIRED RICK. And then, we panic hired the 3rd bench asst at Clemson. Which, is the most indefensible thing Scott Stricklin ever did. I will never understand who was consulting him or who he ran that hire by that ok'd it.

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Originally Posted by StarkVegasSteve

No it wasn't. If you think that then it shows you don't know all the behind the scenes stuff that was going on those last few years. I know everyone saw the fight, but Sidney was a constant problem every day. They'd have to drag his ass out of bed to actually get him to show up to practice. Hood tried to quit 3 times his Freshman year. Those are the big things, we also had drug issues, attitude issues, and culture issues. Stans should've been fired after the fiasco in Hawaii. We were going nowhere. Keeping Stans would've been kicking the can down the road a little more. We would've not have been an attractive job in two years just because Stans stayed

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You are missing the point. No one is arguing about whether Stans deserved to be fired. The issue is that with hindsight being 20/20 - and the only option was firing Stans or not firing Stans, you would still want him fired and go through the last 11 years as opposed to just rolling the dice with him? That doesn't make sense.

Sure Stans could have turned in a worse 11 years than the last 11 we have had, but that doesn't seem likely, I mean it would be pretty hard to do worse than our last 11 years.

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Originally Posted by HancockCountyDog

You are missing the point. No one is arguing about whether Stans deserved to be fired. The issue is that with hindsight being 20/20 - and the only option was firing Stans or not firing Stans, you would still want him fired and go through the last 11 years as opposed to just rolling the dice with him? That doesn't make sense.

Sure Stans could have turned in a worse 11 years than the last 11 we have had, but that doesn't seem likely, I mean it would be pretty hard to do worse than our last 11 years.

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Well you're talking to the wrong person on that. I wanted to fire him after 09, but he lucked up and won the SEC Tournament. Then I wanted to fire him after 11, but we had Hood and Moultrie coming in with Bost coming back.

I will always say that firing him wasn't the mistake. The mistake was the next hire. He could've always just hired Kermit. He would've crawled on broken glass to Starkville.

We used to go back and forth on Sixpack about Stands vs Mark Gottfried.

Gottfried moved on from Bama and got a job at NC State- made the Sweet 16 a couple of times.
Stands got WK- and has kept their program from making the NCAA's as they have under every previous coach since the 1970's

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Originally Posted by StarkVegasSteve

Well you're talking to the wrong person on that. I wanted to fire him after 09, but he lucked up and won the SEC Tournament. Then I wanted to fire him after 11, but we had Hood and Moultrie coming in with Bost coming back.

I will always say that firing him wasn't the mistake. The mistake was the next hire. He could've always just hired Kermit. He would've crawled on broken glass to Starkville.

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Sure, i get that, but looking back - and your choice was keeping Stans or suffering through just Rick Ray - you would still pick firing Stans?

I mean at some point, your love of MSU has to eclipse the anger towards Stans. I mean for me, I really don't care who the coach is, I just want to watch us play meaningful basketball games in February/March. We did that all the time with Stans, not so much the last 11 years.

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Originally Posted by Cooterpoot

We aren't skilled at all. We're not big either, especially at G. We need a portal/JC bonanza in a bad way.

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Yep

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Originally Posted by NCMSTFAN

Completely agree, Oats and Pearl are both good coaches but they are also good recruiters, that's the only way you will win in our league. Rounding up a bunch of mid major tough nosed players won't get the job done. I'm hoping Jans can get the recruiting figured out

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Yep, Pearl cheats to recruit but I guess that don't matter now. Basketball has changed in ways I don't like but we won't ever go back. I like our current work ethic and attitude, we just need some basketball skills to go with it. We are a couple good shooters away from being pretty dang good now.

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Originally Posted by HoopsDawg

In hindsight, firing Stans was a pretty big mistake

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Agree, I think most agree firing Stans without a competent hire was stupid. Yes changes needed to be made if Stans stayed and maybe Stans thought he was bigger than loafers and the ego was the issue.

I think Stans could have recovered in a few years but sometimes it is time for a change.

People can say what they want but outside of 2 good Richard Williams years (of which Stans contributed), the Stans era is the best MSU basketball since Bailey Howell in 60s.

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Originally Posted by HancockCountyDog

Sure, i get that, but looking back - and your choice was keeping Stans or suffering through just Rick Ray - you would still pick firing Stans?

I mean at some point, your love of MSU has to eclipse the anger towards Stans. I mean for me, I really don't care who the coach is, I just want to watch us play meaningful basketball games in February/March. We did that all the time with Stans, not so much the last 11 years.

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We played just as many meaningful games in February/March under Howland as we did under Rick and won about the same amount. Just like with Stansbury, we lost any game that actually mattered, won most of the games we were supposed to, and had head scratching losses.

I don't hate Rick. He did a fine job in his 15+ years. We made the tournament 6 times, which is fine, and we won some meaningless division championships. But we never made it past the first weekend. He also coached in an era where on average 4 of the other 6 division teams were complete and utter dogs***. Auburn didn't even know the had a basketball program, Ole Miss' ceiling leaked, and Arkansas, Alabama, and LSU all had like one or two good years in that stretch. The East dominated every year.

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Originally Posted by R2Dawg

Agree, I think most agree firing Stans without a competent hire was stupid. Yes changes needed to be made if Stans stayed and maybe Stans thought he was bigger than loafers and the ego was the issue.

I think Stans could have recovered in a few years but sometimes it is time for a change.

People can say what they want but outside of 2 good Richard Williams years (of which Stans contributed), the Stans era is the best MSU basketball since Bailey Howell in 60s.

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Ego wasn't the issue. He had lost control of the program and Bailey Howell walked into Stricklin's office and said fire Stansbury or me and some others are pulling all our money from basketball until a change is made.

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Originally Posted by R2Dawg

People can say what they want but outside of 2 good Richard Williams years (of which Stans contributed), the Stans era is the best MSU basketball since Bailey Howell in 60s.

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Williams had 3 really good years- 91, 95, 96 and a couple of NIT seasons. He took over a program that had lost to Delta State. While the 1991 team was Stands 1st year as a asst- that team had been built by Reboul and Brady years prior. Stands took over an NCAA Tourney ready team and underachieved in Y1. But he certainly grew into the job

Williams/Stands is like comparing Jackie/Mullen

Williams/Jackie took us to higher highs during their tenure. SEC title Game/Final Four etc but Mullen/Stands brought consistency.

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Originally Posted by StarkVegasSteve

Ego wasn't the issue. He had lost control of the program and Bailey Howell walked into Stricklin's office and said fire Stansbury or me and some others are pulling all our money from basketball until a change is made.

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Yes I understand the issues then of losing control of program.

Where is all that support now from Howell and boys? It ain't there. Winning takes care of needed support. Firing Stans and nuking the program did nothing. There is no support now.

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Originally Posted by R2Dawg

Yes I understand the issues then of losing control of program.

Where is all that support now from Howell and boys? It ain't there. Winning takes care of needed support. Firing Stans and nuking the program did nothing. There is no support now.

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It was there under Howland and it's there now. Just cause they aren't in the seats doesn't mean they aren't stroking the checks. Richard Adkerson isn't able to come to a lot of the midweek games but he's given more money in one year JUST to the basketball program than the members of this board have given in a lifetime.

Richard cut two different 7 figure checks so that we could complete renovations on The Hump. He stroked a mid 7 figure check the first time and stroked another one in about February of 22 because we were short a few million

Firing Stans was the right thing to do for the better of the program and the image of the university.

Hiring Ray was a mistake obviously but it?s not Ray?s fault he was hired. However there were things that transpired during that coaching search that put MSU in the position it was in that led to the hiring of Ray, a lot of it our own fault. Some coaches and agents black balled us. Some of our administration panicked and didn?t listen to some of our more prominent boosters. Things happened that we made mistakes on.

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Originally Posted by Rawdawg

Firing Stans was the right thing to do for the better of the program and the image of the university.

Hiring Ray was a mistake obviously but it?s not Ray?s fault he was hired. However there were things that transpired during that coaching search that put MSU in the position it was in that led to the hiring of Ray, a lot of it our own fault. Some coaches and agents black balled us. Some of our administration panicked and didn?t listen to some of our more prominent boosters. Things happened that we made mistakes on.

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100% FACT.

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Originally Posted by StarkVegasSteve

100% FACT.

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Yes- the Cheerleader and the Politician did a horrible job during the search

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Originally Posted by R2Dawg

Agree, I think most agree firing Stans without a competent hire was stupid. Yes changes needed to be made if Stans stayed and maybe Stans thought he was bigger than loafers and the ego was the issue.

I think Stans could have recovered in a few years but sometimes it is time for a change.

People can say what they want but outside of 2 good Richard Williams years (of which Stans contributed), the Stans era is the best MSU basketball since Bailey Howell in 60s.

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Yes

It was the right move to fire Stansbury and it was his own fault he got fired.

See, we can say that just as many times as y'all who want to keep saying it was wrong.

How many years y'all wanna dance this jig?!!? Bottom line he got fired so let it go.

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Originally Posted by StarkVegasSteve

It was there under Howland and it's there now. Just cause they aren't in the seats doesn't mean they aren't stroking the checks. Richard Adkerson isn't able to come to a lot of the midweek games but he's given more money in one year JUST to the basketball program than the members of this board have given in a lifetime.

Richard cut two different 7 figure checks so that we could complete renovations on The Hump. He stroked a mid 7 figure check the first time and stroked another one in about February of 22 because we were short a few million

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Where was the money on Sears, Boum, Appleby, Johnson, Mosely and the other 5-6 transfers we missed on this past offseason.

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Originally Posted by Rawdawg

Firing Stans was the right thing to do for the better of the program and the image of the university.

Hiring Ray was a mistake obviously but it?s not Ray?s fault he was hired. However there were things that transpired during that coaching search that put MSU in the position it was in that led to the hiring of Ray, a lot of it our own fault. Some coaches and agents black balled us. Some of our administration panicked and didn?t listen to some of our more prominent boosters. Things happened that we made mistakes on.

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Please. Some of those boosters wanted Kenny Payne.

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Originally Posted by HoopsDawg

Where was the money on Sears, Boum, Appleby, Johnson, Mosely and the other 5-6 transfers we missed on this past offseason.

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Hoops, do we know for a fact our transfer class was substandard because we did not have enough money? If so, how do we know this? And to be clear, we're saying we bought transfers we could afford?

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Originally Posted by HoopsDawg

Where was the money on Sears, Boum, Appleby, Johnson, Mosely and the other 5-6 transfers we missed on this past offseason.

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Sears wanted to play for Oats and Bama. He's from Muscle Shoals so that one wasn't hard to figure out.

Johnson, I assume you're talking about Keontae, couldn't get into grad school here.

Our money was there on Mosely. Missouri offered him a house. We just got outbid.

Don't know who the other two are, but regardless these guys are stroking 6 and 7 figure checks almost every year. To then expect them to turn around and stroke 6 and 7 figure NIL checks is not doable. Outside of Richard, who was the one they hit up for every one of those transfers, we don't have that kind of alumni wealth. Our average fans have to up their giving in NIL. We can't expect our top 10-15 donors who consistently bail us out in facilities funding to also be the ones bailing us out in NIL as well.

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Originally Posted by HoopsDawg

Please. Some of those boosters wanted Kenny Payne.

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And Kenny Payne and World Wide Wes were two of the people that black balled us. And since I doubt you know who World Wide Wes is he's William Wesley. EVP for the Knicks now. He was a super agent for CAA and was close personal friends with Kenny Payne and Calipari.

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Originally Posted by EdwardDrayton

Hoops, do we know for a fact our transfer class was substandard because we did not have enough money? If so, how do we know this? And to be clear, we're saying we bought transfers we could afford?

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I'm saying we targeted and missed on at least 5-6 transfers that would have made a huge difference this season. Whatever the reason this happened, we didn't get it done.

When a name got floated under Howland or Stans, 9 times out of 10 we closed. I have no idea how we didn't close on Hubbard so add him to the list. He visited multiple times.

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Originally Posted by HoopsDawg

I'm saying we targeted and missed on at least 5-6 transfers that would have made a huge difference this season. Whatever the reason this happened, we didn't get it done.

When a name got floated under Howland or Stans, 9 times out of 10 we closed. I have no idea how we didn't close on Hubbard so add him to the list. He visited multiple times.

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I've talked to Richard Duease on that multiple times, he had comfortability with Kermit and that staff. He liked our staff, but was more comfortable with theirs because of the relationship they built with him. It's simple as that. George hasn't stopped recruiting him though. When they make the move on Kermit I would expect Hubbard will end up at State.

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Originally Posted by StarkVegasSteve

Sears wanted to play for Oats and Bama. He's from Muscle Shoals so that one wasn't hard to figure out.

Johnson, I assume you're talking about Keontae, couldn't get into grad school here.

Our money was there on Mosely. Missouri offered him a house. We just got outbid.

Don't know who the other two are, but regardless these guys are stroking 6 and 7 figure checks almost every year. To then expect them to turn around and stroke 6 and 7 figure NIL checks is not doable. Outside of Richard, who was the one they hit up for every one of those transfers, we don't have that kind of alumni wealth. Our average fans have to up their giving in NIL. We can't expect our top 10-15 donors who consistently bail us out in facilities funding to also be the ones bailing us out in NIL as well.

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I'm not giving much but if a lot of folks are like me, we're not giving any more into a black hole without some transparency. How much has been collected, where is it going and how much are we short? Blindly giving money is not something any of us considers wise.

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Originally Posted by HoopsDawg

Where was the money on Sears, Boum, Appleby, Johnson, Mosely and the other 5-6 transfers we missed on this past offseason.

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Bama finished number 2 in the money offer for Sears we finished 3rd.
Texas was highest bidder
When Janz was hired we had and may still have a worse situation with basketball NIL than the College of Charleston.. and that’s a fact

And you guys do know we had tolu , dj and Shaq Moore were all in the portal at one time .. can you imagine the program if those 3 had gone elsewhere ..

Janz was a homer in hire as a Coach. We will see if he can get the players here he needs..