6 players have already entered the portal (baseball)

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Originally Posted by Tater

Re: Forsythe

People made up their mind on this kid failing and are unwilling to change their thoughts in light of evidence to the contrary. Same way the people who were seriously calling for Lemo & co's head at this point in time last year are now again yelling for changes because they're right and Lemo sucks in some way. They made their decision and are unwilling to change. They'll explain it away (not Lemo's recruits, Lane had limited AB's, etc. etc.)

Truth of the matter is Forsythe is showing improvement. He hasn't been an "SEC quality bat" but he needed some meat on his bones. A little better spray placement and plate discipiline though and he's a serviceable end of lineup bat with the defense to justify him being an everyday starter. Who would have thought it would just sometimes take a young kid to grow into it.

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Absolutely!! People also forget dude is a true sophomore who was thrown into the lineup last year cause Kam James sucked ass. He should have redshirted last year but I thought he did really well this year especially since he was being jockeyed around like he was between him and Leggett.

I also hate the jockeying Lemonis did in CF. Look at Yeager. It took him a little while to get settled in. Davis really didn’t have that chance. It was too much movement in the field. I also never understood the batting order. Hancock should not have been the 2 man. He rolled over and popped our way too much. LoTann regressed at the plate, yet wanted to pimp everything he hit.

Like I stated, everyone was perfectly fine with Forsythe hitting .250 and then when he hits .270, everyone wants to bitch and complain cause he isn’t hitting dingers or isn’t big enough or yada yada yada… shut the **** up with that he isn’t big enough to hit dingers or is nothing but a spray hitter… who gives a shit as long as the kid hits.

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Originally Posted by Coach34

Because he is a singles hitter that average climbed because he had limited AB's. He is really good defensively there is no disputing that- but at 165 pounds he will remain a singles hitter that hits about .250. If you can replace him with a quality player you do it- Foreskin is a late inning replacement- not an SEC SS

Leggs had a lower average but had a bigger impact offensively on limited AB's.

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We could have used a few more singles hitters this year. This is a terrible take.

Since when does a SS need to hit for power? You have corner infielder and outfielders for that. The guys in the middle need to play defense and get on base- pop is always welcome, but you need OBP and defense far more. If Forsythe can up his pitch recognition a bit he'll be able to work the count and draw walks and dramatically increase his OBP.

An elite defender with a decent OBP is a SS that starts at most SEC schools. If you can upgrade you do it, but he's not even "a" problem, much less "the" problem, going into next year

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Originally Posted by Tater

Re: Forsythe

People made up their mind on this kid failing and are unwilling to change their thoughts in light of evidence to the contrary. Same way the people who were seriously calling for Lemo & co's head at this point in time last year are now again yelling for changes because they're right and Lemo sucks in some way. They made their decision and are unwilling to change. They'll explain it away (not Lemo's recruits, Lane had limited AB's, etc. etc.)

Truth of the matter is Forsythe is showing improvement. He hasn't been an "SEC quality bat" but he needed some meat on his bones. A little better spray placement and plate discipiline though and he's a serviceable end of lineup bat with the defense to justify him being an everyday starter. Who would have thought it would just sometimes take a young kid to grow into it.

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This. Our problem is not that our SS is a mediocre hitter with no power. It's great to have a SS that is also an asset on offense, and if we get one to transfer in, great, but that's somewhat of a luxury. Our problem is that we were missing one or two studs at the plate. Yeager, James, Cumbest, Hines, and Hancock were all perfectly fine at the plate. Tanner was slightly disappointing, but he's also a plus catcher. If Kellum Clark's stats matched how pretty his swing is, and then you have a centerfielder that can hit leadoff, and our offense goes from solid to very good.

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Originally Posted by Cowbell

We could have used a few more singles hitters this year. This is a terrible take.

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Too funny. We were 4th in the SEC in runs scored. We were fine offensively other than having some people on the bottom to drive in runs.

We were last in the SEC in Runs allowed.
We were last in the SEC in hits allowed
We were 13th in the SEC in walks allowed

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Originally Posted by Coach34

Too funny. We were 4th in the SEC in runs scored. We were fine offensively other than having some people on the bottom to drive in runs.

We were last in the SEC in Runs allowed.
We were last in the SEC in hits allowed
We were 13th in the SEC in walks allowed

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The fact that we were always behind and needing runs has really warped some peoples understanding of the offense this year.

Great example - we lost 12 games by 2 runs or less. In 8 of those we scored 5 or more runs. That's a whole lot of production wasted by bad pitching.

It's simple on Foreskin or any position- if you can upgrade? You do it. Thats the bottom line.

We brought in Yeagerbomb this past year. Foreskin was a little better defender so we moved him to 2nd. Nobody else stepped up. Leggs had his moments but wasnt consistent enough at SS with the glove or bat. Meche needs to go to a lower level. Downs wasnt ready yet. Look around and see whats out there

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Originally Posted by CaptainObvious

I get what you are saying. But I also see the need for some continuity rather than 8 new guys in the line up.

New Leadoff (LF or 2B)
New 2 hole (LF/2B/DH)
Hines 1B
Hancock C
Clark RF
James CF
New (LF/2B/DH)
Alford 3B
Forsythe SS

The middle of the line up would need to be flexible to keep 3,4, and 5 from all batting LH.

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I'm not concerned with the returning guys. They're fine and will be better. Clark had his soph struggles (not uncommon).
Hines needs to cut down Ks a little.
Doubt Hancock comes back but we'll see.

It's all about who we bring in, especially pitching side. I trust Exlax before Taco Bell more than I trust Foxhall.

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Originally Posted by Coach34

It's simple on Foreskin or any position- if you can upgrade? You do it. Thats the bottom line.

We brought in Yeagerbomb this past year. Foreskin was a little better defender so we moved him to 2nd. Nobody else stepped up. Leggs had his moments but wasnt consistent enough at SS with the glove or bat. Meche needs to go to a lower level. Downs wasnt ready yet. Look around and see whats out there

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Why in the freak to you continue to call these guys names. Really? Are 7 years old or something. Use his damn name.

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Originally Posted by Homedawg

I agree w the Forsythe part. I know people wil disagree and that's fine. But he wasn't our problem.

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Not at all. I mean sure I will take a first round type talent at SS of course. But play elite defense and hit .280 at SS and that will work.

Lane
Hines
Hancock
Clark
Alford
Downs

That's a start. We need arms more than anything.

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Originally Posted by Coach34

It's simple on Foreskin or any position- if you can upgrade? You do it. Thats the bottom line.

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There is real truth here. If you can upgrade you do it. Kelly Bryant led Clemson to a football ACC championship and a spot in the playoffs. The next year, Dabo replaced him with a freshman named Trevor Lawrence. This was not an indictment of Bryant, but rather Trevor Lawrence was simply an upgrade.

I like Forsythe a lot. But if a new shortstop rolls onto campus that defends like Forsythe but hits like Brent Rooker, then you have to play him. This isn't T-ball where everyone gets to play to make mama happy.

Having said that, when I have a list of biggest current needs in the portal, shortstop certainly isn't at the top of the list.

Rumor this morning is we are losing 20 or so guys off the roster. Supposedly 53% of the roster or something to that affect. Just sit back and let it play out. Lots of movement to come.

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Originally Posted by Pinto

Rumor this morning is we are losing 20 or so guys off the roster. Supposedly 53% of the roster or something to that affect. Just sit back and let it play out. Lots of movement to come.

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Well we had 11 Seniors (some with eligibility left), and 5 others go in the portal. Add LoTan and Sims in the draft and that already gets you to 18. So 20 isn't really that much.

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Originally Posted by somebodyshotmypaw

There is real truth here. If you can upgrade you do it. Kelly Bryant led Clemson to a football ACC championship and a spot in the playoffs. The next year, Dabo replaced him with a freshman named Trevor Lawrence. This was not an indictment of Bryant, but rather Trevor Lawrence was simply an upgrade.

I like Forsythe a lot. But if a new shortstop rolls onto campus that defends like Forsythe but hits like Brent Rooker, then you have to play him. This isn't T-ball where everyone gets to play to make mama happy.

Having said that, when I have a list of biggest current needs in the portal, shortstop certainly isn't at the top of the list.

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Agree on both points. You should always look to get better at least every position.
But SS is down the list on things needs to be addressed.

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Originally Posted by Pinto

Rumor this morning is we are losing 20 or so guys off the roster. Supposedly 53% of the roster or something to that affect. Just sit back and let it play out. Lots of movement to come.

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I don't think we have 53% of the roster that would constitute a loss.

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Originally Posted by TNDawg35

Absolutely!! People also forget dude is a true sophomore who was thrown into the lineup last year cause Kam James sucked ass. He should have redshirted last year but I thought he did really well this year especially since he was being jockeyed around like he was between him and Leggett.

I also hate the jockeying Lemonis did in CF. Look at Yeager. It took him a little while to get settled in. Davis really didn’t have that chance. It was too much movement in the field. I also never understood the batting order. Hancock should not have been the 2 man. He rolled over and popped our way too much. LoTann regressed at the plate, yet wanted to pimp everything he hit.

Like I stated, everyone was perfectly fine with Forsythe hitting .250 and then when he hits .270, everyone wants to bitch and complain cause he isn’t hitting dingers or isn’t big enough or yada yada yada… shut the **** up with that he isn’t big enough to hit dingers or is nothing but a spray hitter… who gives a shit as long as the kid hits.

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Let's just compare some SEC shortstops to ours shall we?

Foreskin- .273 avg with 3/1/0 (4 total Xbase hits) 12 RBI's .359 OBP

Mississippi-Gonzalez .... .280 with 9/3/16 (28 XBH's) 45 RBI's .417 OBP
UPig- Battles.... .289 with 12/1/8 (21 XBH's) 36 RBI's .356 OBP
LSU- Thompson.... .294 with 12/0/6 (18 XBH's) 28 RBI's .401 OBP
Tennessee- Lawson .253 with 6/1/10 (17 XBH's) 37 RBI's .387 OBP
Auburn- Moore .274 9/0/4 (13 XBH's) 28 RBI's OBP .335
Florida- Rivera .265 7/1/9 (17 XBH's) 28 RBI's OBP .366

Thats quite alot of offense to give up at SS compared to what other teams are getting. Plus, he had the highest strikeout rate in our starting line-up

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Originally Posted by Coach34

Too funny. We were 4th in the SEC in runs scored. We were fine offensively other than having some people on the bottom to drive in runs.

We were last in the SEC in Runs allowed.
We were last in the SEC in hits allowed
We were 13th in the SEC in walks allowed

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Clearly pitching was the issue with this year. Every team's hitting can be improved as D. Only the really good teams have great pitching which is also why we won it last year, plain and simple.

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Originally Posted by Coach34

Let's just compare some SEC shortstops to ours shall we?

Foreskin- .273 avg with 3/1/0 (4 total Xbase hits) 12 RBI's .359 OBP

Mississippi-Gonzalez .... .280 with 9/3/16 (28 XBH's) 45 RBI's .417 OBP
UPig- Battles.... .289 with 12/1/8 (21 XBH's) 36 RBI's .356 OBP
LSU- Thompson.... .294 with 12/0/6 (18 XBH's) 28 RBI's .401 OBP
Tennessee- Lawson .253 with 6/1/10 (17 XBH's) 37 RBI's .387 OBP
Auburn- Moore .274 9/0/4 (13 XBH's) 28 RBI's OBP .335
Florida- Rivera .265 7/1/9 (17 XBH's) 28 RBI's OBP .366

Thats quite alot of offense to give up at SS compared to what other teams are getting. Plus, he had the highest strikeout rate in our starting line-up

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So his average and obp are in line.
He just doesn't have the extra base hits.
He is an elite defender though.

The number to beat is 75k for the Kansas SS if one of you wants to pay that. I personally would rather spend it on arms.

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Originally Posted by Hot Rock

Why in the freak to you continue to call these guys names. Really? Are 7 years old or something. Use his damn name.

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Can’t rep this but couldn’t agree more. Enough is enough.

But it is true IF and that is a big IF you can upgrade you upgrade. Just don’t think you want to remove your best SS who has his average coming along. That would be dumb.

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Originally Posted by confucius say

So his average and obp are in line.
He just doesn't have the extra base hits.
He is an elite defender though.

The number to beat is 75k for the Kansas SS if one of you wants to pay that. I personally would rather spend it on arms.

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He also slumped really bad and apparently finally fixed the hole in his swing. At least that is what they said on TV. I would take his defense along with hitting .280-.300. He just has to work on hitting to the gaps. He isn't ever going to be a homerun hitter but neither was Mangum. He also needs to become a good bunter if he really wants to up his value.

C34 why are you so adamant that Forsythe sucks?
You say he is not an sec SS? You are nuts and so full of yourself you can’t see the forest for the trees.

I went back and looked. You know how many .300 season BA SS we have had since 2014? 1 at that was Gridley did it for 1 season. You do know that Frazier was 2013 he also hit over .300

Another point, do you know who has the most assists and least number of errors since 2010 at SS ? You guessed it our non sec SS Lane Forsythe. He had 4 errors the other SS over the past decade the closest to him error wise was 7.

I think you need to just admit you don’t like him and just accept the fact that he is a sophomore 2 year starter and national champion and your future SS next year. He actually hits on par in batting average with all of our former SS not named Frazier.

Get over it. Lane Forsythe is legit and his bat will come around. He is not a HR hitter nor does he try to be. He is a stud otherwise he would not have been on the field the past 2 years.

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Originally Posted by SilentSteel16

C34 why are you so adamant that Forsythe sucks?
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Did I say he sucks? I'm pretty sure I've given him plenty of credit for his glove work. Now if my comparision of Foreskin's offensive stats to other SS's in the SEC hurts your feelings? That's something you need to deal with. Other SS's in the SEC didnt hit .300 either- but they werent drains on the offense. 4 XBH's for the season and leading your team in K-rate offensively is not only below-average, it's way below average. Some people might even use the word "shitty".

So I guess that means MSU doesn’t have any good SS play simce Adam Frazier close to a decade ago? You are comparing him to other teams, what guy did he keep off the field? Who would have done better on MSU baseball team ? The answer is no one. He is our SEC SS. If you think HE was the drain on our offense and our team then you weren’t paying attention.

It totally doesn’t fit 34’s narrative. Dude just has to hate on someone on every team. This year and last it was Lane.

The question is who would you get to replace lane and is the amount you would have to pay worth it when you could use that money on pitchers and a CF.
You have to think like a GM now. Every player in the portal that is of the caliber you want is asking how much money he gets if he comes to play for you. Ark and TN are in a bidding war for Kansas SS. You only have so much money to go around, so you have to be smart about where it is allocated.

I was thinking the same. Forsythe is similar to many MSU baseball player before him. Undersized but very talented and scrappy.

I can't recall a year, ever, that State was a tall sec team 1-9. Funny part is, size wise, 2022 may be our tallest team that I can remember.

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Originally Posted by confucius say

The question is who would you get to replace lane and is the amount you would have to pay worth it when you could use that money on pitchers and a CF.
You have to think like a GM now. Every player in the portal that is of the caliber you want is asking how much money he gets if he comes to play for you. Ark and TN are in a bidding war for Kansas SS. You only have so much money to go around, so you have to be smart about where it is allocated.

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Great point. We have to have a 2b, OF and a catcher (unless Hancock stays), and multiple pitchers. Ss falls behind that -!: money, scholarship and NIL , both have limits one way or another.

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Originally Posted by SilentSteel16

So I guess that means MSU doesn’t have any good SS play simce Adam Frazier close to a decade ago? You are comparing him to other teams, what guy did he keep off the field? Who would have done better on MSU baseball team ? The answer is no one. He is our SEC SS. If you think HE was the drain on our offense and our team then you weren’t paying attention.

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Well, let's look at production.

2020- Westburg hit .317 with 6/0/2 (8 XBH's) and 11 RBI's in just 16 games. Thats pretty good. He was more productive in 16 games than Foreskin in 2022
2019- Westburg hit .294 with 21/2/6 (29 XBH's) and 61 RBI's .402 OBP Not bad huh?
2018- Belmont hit .221 with 10/0/6 (16 XBH's) and 49 RBI's. .309 OBP. Remember how this wasnt good enough and we replaced him the next year with Westburg? He still had more production than Foreskin
2017- Gridley hit .327 15/1/6 (22 XBH's) and 39 RBI's and a .393 OBP

I just went back the 4 years before Foreskin stepped on campus to show you the kind of production we are looking for compared to what we are currently getting and it's not even close. You guys acting like he is Ozzie Smith need to realize he didnt even make the All-defensive team. We can agree he has a good glove- But I just think we lose too much offensively- especially with the high K-rate to justify playing him full-time.

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Originally Posted by confucius say

The question is who would you get to replace lane .

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Well, that is what recruiting is all about. Finding those guys. Our staff needs to get to work

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Originally Posted by Coach34

Well, that is what recruiting is all about. Finding those guys. Our staff needs to get to work

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It's not just the staff. It's the money people. Anybody you want is demanding $$. It appears the Kansas ss is going to set the market. Everybody on here needs to be paying at least $50 a month if we want to be relevant going forward.

And we have to decide which holes are the most urgent to fill. I think that is pitching so I think that is where the money needs to be spent this cycle.

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Originally Posted by Coach34

Well, let's look at production.

2020- Westburg hit .317 with 6/0/2 (8 XBH's) and 11 RBI's in just 16 games. Thats pretty good. He was more productive in 16 games than Foreskin in 2022
2019- Westburg hit .294 with 21/2/6 (29 XBH's) and 61 RBI's .402 OBP Not bad huh?
2018- Belmont hit .221 with 10/0/6 (16 XBH's) and 49 RBI's. .309 OBP. Remember how this wasnt good enough and we replaced him the next year with Westburg? He still had more production than Foreskin
2017- Gridley hit .327 15/1/6 (22 XBH's) and 39 RBI's and a .393 OBP

I just went back the 4 years before Foreskin stepped on campus to show you the kind of production we are looking for compared to what we are currently getting and it's not even close. You guys acting like he is Ozzie Smith need to realize he didnt even make the All-defensive team. We can agree he has a good glove- But I just think we lose too much offensively- especially with the high K-rate to justify playing him full-time.

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Where?s the defensive comparison in this? Forsythe is an elite, proven battle tested SEC/CWS level defensive SS. His defensive play in Omaha was a big part of winning that tournament. Your little act is predictable and old.

I saw that Kansas’ SS entered the portal and he had an avg of 396 and 8 hrs. He is from Hawaii.

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Originally Posted by Coach34

Well, let's look at production.

2020- Westburg hit .317 with 6/0/2 (8 XBH's) and 11 RBI's in just 16 games. Thats pretty good. He was more productive in 16 games than Foreskin in 2022
2019- Westburg hit .294 with 21/2/6 (29 XBH's) and 61 RBI's .402 OBP Not bad huh?
2018- Belmont hit .221 with 10/0/6 (16 XBH's) and 49 RBI's. .309 OBP. Remember how this wasnt good enough and we replaced him the next year with Westburg? He still had more production than Foreskin
2017- Gridley hit .327 15/1/6 (22 XBH's) and 39 RBI's and a .393 OBP

I just went back the 4 years before Foreskin stepped on campus to show you the kind of production we are looking for compared to what we are currently getting and it's not even close. You guys acting like he is Ozzie Smith need to realize he didnt even make the All-defensive team. We can agree he has a good glove- But I just think we lose too much offensively- especially with the high K-rate to justify playing him full-time.

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Funny you mention Westy in 2020 in 16 games. Westy struck out 15 out of 60 ABs. Pretty good pace there. And you keeping on saying he needs to hit .300 yet we have had 1 guy hit .300 between Lane and Frazier.

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Originally Posted by SilentSteel16

Funny you mention Westy in 2020 in 16 games. Westy struck out 15 out of 60 ABs. Pretty good pace there. And you keeping on saying he needs to hit .300 yet we have had 1 guy hit .300 between Lane and Frazier.

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Why are you lying? I have not said in one post in this thread that he needs to hit .300. I have talked about production . He is not producing offensively. But since you brought it up- a singles hitters that cant produce XBH's does need to hit .300+. They need to be a contact guy that moves runners, can hit-n-run, and doesnt strike out much.

I love the fact you brought up Westy's 15 K's in 60 AB's. You obviously made the comment because you think that's a high number. That 1/4 AB's or 25%. Now let's look at Foreskin's:

38 K's in 110 AB's- that a K rate of 34.5%. 9.5% higher than Westy. Thank you for helping me make my point Sir.

You do realize you are comparing Lane to a 1st rounder… must mean Lane is not very good. Haha. Move on Coach your hatred is clouding your logic. Goodnight

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Originally Posted by Coach34

Why are you lying? I have not said in one post in this thread that he needs to hit .300. I have talked about production . He is not producing offensively. But since you brought it up- a singles hitters that cant produce XBH's does need to hit .300+. They need to be a contact guy that moves runners, can hit-n-run, and doesnt strike out much.

I love the fact you brought up Westy's 15 K's in 60 AB's. You obviously made the comment because you think that's a high number. That 1/4 AB's or 25%. Now let's look at Foreskin's:

38 K's in 110 AB's- that a K rate of 34.5%. 9.5% higher than Westy. Thank you for helping me make my point Sir.

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You do realize he hit .300 the second half of the season with extra base hits...

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Originally Posted by SilentSteel16

You do realize you are comparing Lane to a 1st rounder… must mean Lane is not very good. Haha. Move on Coach your hatred is clouding your logic. Goodnight

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It's ok buddy. You lost your argument. Always bring facts. You said nothing about 1st rounder when you thought you had me with his 25% K rate. Stay in your lane and let the knowledge consume you.

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Originally Posted by Cowbell

You do realize he hit .300 the second half of the season with extra base hits...

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I realize he sat alot of games that saved him AB's in which would have lowered his AVG this season. 4 XBH's in about 135 total AB's is awful. K-rate is awful. Did he improve at the plate? Yes. But we are talking about playing SS in the SEC for a Top 20 program in the country. His production is more UAB-ish

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Originally Posted by Cowbell

You do realize he hit .300 the second half of the season with extra base hits...

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SEC series down the stretch:

0-5 vs Tenn
0-2 vs A&M
3-9 vs Florida
5-13 vs Mizzou
3-11 vs Mississippi
1-8 vs Auburn

He was 12/48 which is .250 in the last 6 SEC series- that includes a great weekend vs Mizzou who was one of the worst staffs in the SEC. He was 7/35 without Mizzou which is .200

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Originally Posted by Homedawg

Great point. We have to have a 2b, OF and a catcher (unless Hancock stays), and multiple pitchers. Ss falls behind that -!: money, scholarship and NIL , both have limits one way or another.

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I'm not expecting Cumbest back so we're going to have to find 2 OF's and a DH in addition to second base and a catcher. I think we have to have a catcher from the portal no matter what. Otherwise if Hancock and Highfill are on the team that's still only two catchers with one as a freshman. I'm not sure that Hubbard stays at catcher. Anyway three catchers with two being true freshmen is scary.