3 major sports, GOAT.......

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Originally Posted by dawgday166

I don't dislike Bonds so much but his late career explosion isn't authentic. And all folks do is look at HRs and walks.

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That's fine, but my issue is that you don't see to believe others did the exact same thing. The entire league was doing it.

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Originally Posted by ShotgunDawg

That's fine, but my issue is that you don't see to believe others did the exact same thing. The entire league was doing it.

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And that's what pisses me off. Bonds didn't need to do it but he did and it's tainted his career. The whole era people look at and wonder who did/who didn't. And it wasn't just hitters, pitchers were into as much as anyone.

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Originally Posted by ShotgunDawg

That's fine, but my issue is that you don't see to believe others did the exact same thing. The entire league was doing it.

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A) I don't believe entire league was doing it. There was a percentage tho and I wouldn't guess it to be higher than 20%. Probably not more than 10%.
B) Pretty sure the Babe didn't do roids. Beer & Women were his drugs.
C) You're vaulting Barry up there but "wanting" to believe the whole league was doing roids cause ... you just want it to be so. Barry probably would of had a late career of nagging injuries from '99 on and faded away if he hadn't roided up.

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Originally Posted by dawgday166

A) I don't believe entire league was doing it. There was a percentage tho and I wouldn't guess it to be higher than 20%.

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Well.... you're wrong. I know that to be a fact.

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Originally Posted by Commercecomet24

And that's what pisses me off. Bonds didn't need to do it but he did and it's tainted his career. The whole era people look at and wonder who did/who didn't. And it wasn't just hitters, pitchers were into as much as anyone.

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The facts that Jeff Bagwell is in the HOF & Bonds & Clemens aren't is an absolutely travesty & laughable

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Originally Posted by ShotgunDawg

The facts that Jeff Bagwell is in the HOF & Bonds & Clemens aren't is an absolutely travesty & laughable

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I will agree with you on that. Caminiti and Bagwell were big abusers. Cost Caminiti his life.

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Originally Posted by ShotgunDawg

The facts that Jeff Bagwell is in the HOF & Bonds & Clemens aren't is an absolutely travesty & laughable

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I agree.

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Originally Posted by ShotgunDawg

Well.... you're wrong. I know that to be a fact.

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So how do you "know" this?

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Originally Posted by Commercecomet24

I will agree with you on that. Caminiti and Bagwell were big abusers. Cost Caminiti his life.

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Caminiti is who I was trying to think of and his explosive years. Really?? That's how much roids can help performance.

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Originally Posted by dawgday166

So how do you "know" this?

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Because I know people that would know

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Originally Posted by ShotgunDawg

Because I know people that would know

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ok ... but they don't know everyone in the league and besides that ... perceptions aren't always reality.

NBA: Probably MJ. LeBron is a lot closer than most old timers want to admit, and most of the arguments given to MJ are flawed in one way or another, but I?ll still give him the benefit of the doubt.
NFL: Hard to really answer because of the nature of football and how different each position is. Probably gotta be a QB though, so I?ll go with Brady
MLB: Might take some heat for this, but I think it?s Mike Trout. Players are so much better today than they used to be. Pitchers routinely throwing 95+, which was unheard of not eve twenty years ago. Trout?s numbers are insane, and while it would be justified to say he hasn?t played long enough, if he stays healthy he will go down as the GOAT. Heck he could retire right now and make the Hall of Fame that?s how good he?s been

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Originally Posted by dawgday166

Caminiti is who I was trying to think of and his explosive years. Really?? That's how much roids can help performance.

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Yeah read his story. It was a sad end to the mans life, tragic. I have deep sympathy for people with addictive personality, it's a horrible disease that affects so many.

Caminiti went from average to MVP almost overnight.

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Originally Posted by JPdog

NBA: Probably MJ. LeBron is a lot closer than most old timers want to admit, and most of the arguments given to MJ are flawed in one way or another, but I?ll still give him the benefit of the doubt.
NFL: Hard to really answer because of the nature of football and how different each position is. Probably gotta be a QB though, so I?ll go with Brady
MLB: Might take some heat for this, but I think it?s Mike Trout. Players are so much better today than they used to be. Pitchers routinely throwing 95+, which was unheard of not eve twenty years ago. Trout?s numbers are insane, and while it would be justified to say he hasn?t played long enough, if he stays healthy he will go down as the GOAT. Heck he could retire right now and make the Hall of Fame that?s how good he?s been

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Yeah I think Trout has serious potential to threaten that GOAT award. Love watching him play.

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Originally Posted by JPdog

NBA: Probably MJ. LeBron is a lot closer than most old timers want to admit, and most of the arguments given to MJ are flawed in one way or another, but I?ll still give him the benefit of the doubt.
NFL: Hard to really answer because of the nature of football and how different each position is. Probably gotta be a QB though, so I?ll go with Brady
MLB: Might take some heat for this, but I think it?s Mike Trout. Players are so much better today than they used to be. Pitchers routinely throwing 95+, which was unheard of not eve twenty years ago. Trout?s numbers are insane, and while it would be justified to say he hasn?t played long enough, if he stays healthy he will go down as the GOAT. Heck he could retire right now and make the Hall of Fame that?s how good he?s been

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Not sure how Trout's numbers are "off the chart". His best year in SLG and OPS isn't as good as Babe's lifetime. And while there probably weren't as many 95+ pitchers back then, there were a lot more balls doctored. Relievers also weren't used back than like they are now.

Just from players that I have watched on TV.

Basketball : MJ - LeBron is great but MJ was also consistently one of the best defensive players in the league.

Football: I don't like Brady but the guy has the rings. His seasons in Tampa are going to define his legacy. Does he need Bill's coaching and team building to win?

Baseball: Bonds on roids is about as dominant a hitter that you will find but I give Trout the overall nod. Pitchers are better now along with his base stealing and defense is better than roided up Bonds.

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Originally Posted by ShotgunDawg

This is a ridiculous comment. Secondly, how do you know Chipper didn?t Roids up?

You don?t think Ruth used amphetamines and went to the furthest extent to take advantage of legal rules during his day?

How do you know he just chased women and drank beer?

How do you know he didn?t throw 85 mph on the mound? Could Bonds have pitched in Ruth?s era?

Who is the best baseball player your EYES have ever seen?

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I have read about Ruth and his life story. He was a big drinker and chased women a whole lot. He was a very interesting character and was a dominant pitcher in his early days. Btw, I'd put Lou Gehrig ahead of Bonds, to me and what I read about him he was close to Ruth in being the GOAT. Just saying

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Originally Posted by ShotgunDawg

But how do you know Chipper didn?t use Roids?

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If he did,he sucked at it.

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Originally Posted by basedog

I have read about Ruth and his life story. He was a big drinker and chased women a whole lot. He was a very interesting character and was a dominant pitcher in his early days. Btw, I'd put Lou Gehrig ahead of Bonds, to me and what I read about him he was close to Ruth in being the GOAT. Just saying

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Bonds was the absolute best hitter this world has ever seen for like 3 consecutive seasons. He did it against far superior pitchers than anything the Babe ever batted against. I am not saying he is the best ever player to play the game, but it is not out of the realm of possibility that he could be better than Ruth. Ruth literally played for two of the best franchises in the history of sports, Boston and NYY.

If I had to call a single player as the best ever to suit up, I say Mickey Mantle in his prime prior to injuries. I never saw him play, but the dude from all indication was the real deal in every aspect. Imagine if the dude had physically prepared for baseball along with not doing crazy shit between games and the off season.

Also I would like to add, Babe's approach to the game changed baseball forever. No one consistently went for the long ball. He was like Wilt Chamberlain in how wilt changed the game of basketball forever.

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Originally Posted by Lord McBuckethead

Bonds was the absolute best hitter this world has ever seen for like 3 consecutive seasons. He did it against far superior pitchers than anything the Babe ever batted against. I am not saying he is the best ever player to play the game, but it is not out of the realm of possibility that he could be better than Ruth. Ruth literally played for two of the best franchises in the history of sports, Boston and NYY.

If I had to call a single player as the best ever to suit up, I say Mickey Mantle in his prime prior to injuries. I never saw him play, but the dude from all indication was the real deal in every aspect. Imagine if the dude had physically prepared for baseball along with not doing crazy shit between games and the off season.

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Don't know if you noticed but Boston was a great franchise while Ruth was there and then went in a looonggg slump.

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Originally Posted by dawgday166

Don't know if you noticed but Boston was a great franchise while Ruth was there and then went in a looonggg slump.

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The Curse you say**

THis entire thread and not a single mention of Ted Willaims? Maybe the greatest hitter ever??

I think Trout will be up there in that discussion before it's all said and done. The only knock against him is that the Angels most always suck. If he starts winning championships, then I'll think he'll start to cement himself as one of, if not the GOAT.

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Originally Posted by Homedawg

THis entire thread and not a single mention of Ted Willaims? Maybe the greatest hitter ever??

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Along with Ty Cobb.

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Originally Posted by ShotgunDawg

Bonds is better than the Babe

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Have you considering the Babe as a pitcher?

Posted before I read past your post.

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Originally Posted by Homedawg

THis entire thread and not a single mention of Ted Willaims? Maybe the greatest hitter ever??

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Definitely the greatest hitter and a true American hero too. If he hadn't of lost so much time in military service his numbers would be staggering. He was a good defender with an average arm and average speed. Ol' Teddy Ballgame could sure rake though and knew more about hitting than anyone alive.

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Originally Posted by Tbonewannabe

Just from players that I have watched on TV.

Basketball : MJ - LeBron is great but MJ was also consistently one of the best defensive players in the league.

Football: I don't like Brady but the guy has the rings. His seasons in Tampa are going to define his legacy. Does he need Bill's coaching and team building to win?

Baseball: Bonds on roids is about as dominant a hitter that you will find but I give Trout the overall nod. Pitchers are better now along with his base stealing and defense is better than roided up Bonds.

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Trout isn't near Bonds. He's really good but he's not that.

You can pitch to Trout. Not Bonds

How many books and movies will be made about or even that bring up Bonds name?

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Originally Posted by Lord McBuckethead

If he did,he sucked at it.

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Like Raffy?

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Originally Posted by Commercecomet24

Definitely the greatest hitter and a true American hero too. If he hadn't of lost so much time in military service his numbers would be staggering. He was a good defender with an average arm and average speed. Ol' Teddy Ballgame could sure rake though and knew more about hitting than anyone alive.

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His career BA and hr totals are amazing, especially considering the lost time. Only, once since then has there been a really legit chance for someone to hit 400 and that was Brett in 80.

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Originally Posted by Commercecomet24

I'm partial to Mickey myself(and I hate the yankees), the man just had a lot of demons. I met him a couple times and he just seemed like a good ol' country boy(of course he was sober when I met him and I understand when he was drunk his personality totally changed). I've got some pretty cool autographed stuff from him. The Mick is the definition of "what could've been".

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According to Sonny, the Mick wouldn't pay your rent if you needed him to.***

Taken from the Movie "A Bronx Tale"

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Originally Posted by Homedawg

His career BA and hr totals are amazing, especially considering the lost time. Only, once since then has there been a really legit chance for someone to hit 400 and that was Brett in 80.

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Lost 5 prime years to military service and he didn't take the easy assignment he could have. He applied for V-5 to become a fighter pilot and served in WWII and Korean war. Projected stats if he didn't lose those 5 years:

Williams would have hit .342 with 3,452 hits, 663 home runs and 2,380 RBI. Those numbers would have lifted him from 69th to sixth in career hits; from 18th to fourth in home runs; and from 13th to first in runs batted in.

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Originally Posted by parabrave

According to Sonny, the Mick wouldn't pay your rent if you needed him to.***

Taken from the Movie "A Bronx Tale"

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Love that movie!

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Originally Posted by Commercecomet24

Lost 5 prime years to military service and he didn't take the easy assignment he could have. He applied for V-5 to become a fighter pilot and served in WWII and Korean war. Projected stats if he didn't lose those 5 years:

Williams would have hit .342 with 3,452 hits, 663 home runs and 2,380 RBI. Those numbers would have lifted him from 69th to sixth in career hits; from 18th to fourth in home runs; and from 13th to first in runs batted in.

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That's a Marine combat fighter pilot. Thought I'd correct before TUSK and Jack jumped into your 4th point of contact.

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Originally Posted by parabrave

That's a Marine combat fighter pilot. Thought I'd correct before TUSK and Jack jumped into your 4th point of contact.

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That's correct. American Hero, Baseball Hero.

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Originally Posted by Commercecomet24

An argument could also be made that based on just sheer talent that Mays and Mantle were Bonds equivalent.

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I agree about Mantle. He was a tremendous talent. Even with all his injuries, being taped up, etc., he could still run to 1st base in 3.1 seconds. I don't think it was any baseball players better than he was-just my opinion.

I still wonder 2 things about Jr. 1. How many HRs would've he have hit in 94 and how many would he have hit if he didn't get hurt and also stayed in Seattle?

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Originally Posted by Commercecomet24

Definitely the greatest hitter and a true American hero too. If he hadn't of lost so much time in military service his numbers would be staggering. He was a good defender with an average arm and average speed. Ol' Teddy Ballgame could sure rake though and knew more about hitting than anyone alive.

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I recall opposing teams would do the "Ted Williams shift" against him. It didn't faze Williams, though. He would still get base hits.

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Originally Posted by NCDawg

I agree about Mantle. He was a tremendous talent. Even with all his injuries, being taped up, etc., he could still run to 1st base in 3.1 seconds. I don't think it was any baseball players better than he was-just my opinion.

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He was an amazing athlete. Recruited by OU to play football, he may well have been the best HS football player in the country as well as baseball. He could literally do everything, accept take care of his body. He was so freaking fast, Commerce Comet lol!