2020 and 2021 may be rough

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Originally Posted by Walkerhill

Do not get me wrong. I would love to be pleasantly surprised. I am just saying, Cohen got us exactly what we asked for, a disciplinarian who wins. Give him time to build it back up even if it takes a couple years.

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True, but Leach is also a disciplinarian who wins playing a style that we've never played anything close to in the last 40 years. Not sure what type of offense TT and WSU played before Leach got there but had we gotten a guy that was a disciplinarian that wins that played a style closer to what our roster is built for our transition time might have been shortened a bit. Long term I'm looking forward to what we can be under Leach but fans need to keep expectations in line for the next year or two unless the transfer portal is very kind to us.

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Originally Posted by ShotgunDawg

But coach doesn't know the roster yet either.

I fully admit it's too early to have this conversation. We may win 4, but there are 8 winnable games on the schedule

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There are maybe, but everything has to go near perfect for 8 wins. Near perfect ain't gonna happen.

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Originally Posted by Ezsoil

I'd say that Moorhead had no imagination...there are plenty of things he could have done such as throwing to a running back or a bubble screen ...or how about this a jet sweep that worked so well against Auburn but was never seen again....

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One thing about Moorhead was he very focused on trying to complete passes 30 to 40 yards downfield which takes better QB accuracy, more speed at WR and more time in the pocket for the play to develop. Leach's pass game is primarily all within 25 yards of the LOS.

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Originally Posted by dawgday166

There are maybe, but everything has to go near perfect for 8 wins. Near perfect ain't gonna happen.

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I agree. I don't expect 8 wins.

I think we win 7

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Originally Posted by Coursesuper

If you need it spelled out for you, you haven't been paying attention very well.

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Could I buy a vowel please?*****

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Originally Posted by Coach34

Rough means this:

We will be rebuilding our D in 2020 after losing alot of good players for the 2nd season in a row. We lose our best pass-rusher and 3/4 of our 2-deep at LB. We lose our entire starting Secondary from Game 1 last season. The Secondary got a little experience in 2019- but by and large is still green. We are depending on jucos for a pass rush because we lost our best DE and our other starting DE had 2 sacks in 2019. To say our D may struggle next year on D is putting it mildly.

Offensively we are about to do a 180 in scheme. We ran the ball 60% of the time in 2019. Those days are gone. That kind of change takes time to adjust to. Plus- we are not even sure who the QB will be and other things that factor in.

Until we see how things shake out- we just dont know. Shrader could get run off in April or suspended, we could have drug tests hamper participation, lots of things yet to be decided. 6 wins for us in 2020 would be a huge win. Less than 6 is 50/50 and could easily happen

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Jeez this is spooky. For once you and I are exactly on the same page.

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Originally Posted by ShotgunDawg

Look at the schedule.

You're acting like this is a complete rebuild.

We may not have our best roster, but I don't agree at all with that

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Given the huge scheme change, it is a complete rebuild on offense. Defense was already close to it. I'll be VERY impressed with Leach if we get to six wins.

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Originally Posted by Liverpooldawg

Given the huge scheme change, it is a complete rebuild on offense. Defense was already close to it. I'll be VERY impressed with Leach if we get to six wins.

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We'll see

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Originally Posted by Coach34

I have. Our schedule is tough and we are in a pretty strong rebuild. We will be the underdog at least 6 of the 12

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This will be one of if not the easiest schedules we have had in my lifetime. If we suck it's because of other reasons. Not our schedule. It's hard to believe anyone would complain about playing a terrible Missouri team and Kentucky in the East with 4 awful non conference teams. Next year is set up to pad some wins if Leach has any pulse on offense. The defense will be improved from this year if we make a decent coordinator hire. Basically everyone that consistently played on defense last year outside of Leo, Rivers, and Cole is returning and we are adding some big time juco players. I expect 6-7 wins. 8 is in the picture if Leach can find a quarterback in year one. We are nowhere near a 3 win team talent wise. We have looked like shit because of our head coach, not talent. We have a higher recruiting profile than 8 teams on our schedule next year and we just hired a coach that has done more with less at every single place he's been at.

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Originally Posted by Jarius

This will be one of if not the easiest schedules we have had in my lifetime. If we suck it's because of other reasons. Not our schedule. It's hard to believe anyone would complain about playing a terrible Missouri team and Kentucky in the East with 4 awful non conference teams. Next year is set up to pad some wins if Leach has anything pulse on offense. The defense will be improved from this year if we make a decent coordinator hire. Basically everyone that consistently played on defense last year outside of 5 is returning and we are adding some big time juco players. I expect 6-7 wins. 8 is in the picture if Leach can find a quarterback in year one. We are nowhere near a 3 win team talent wise. We have looked like shit because of our head coach, not talent.

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You echo my thoughts.

I don't think it's worth debating right now though because we have such little info. I can see how both sides feel the way they do.

I'm with you, but I understand coach's point as well

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Originally Posted by Liverpooldawg

Given the huge scheme change, it is a complete rebuild on offense. Defense was already close to it. I'll be VERY impressed with Leach if we get to six wins.

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We have been recruiting to a pass first offense for 3 years now. Just because Joe ran the ball a lot because his teams couldn't throw does not mean that he was not at least trying to recruit players to that type of scheme.

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Originally Posted by ShotgunDawg

You echo my thoughts.

I don't think it's worth debating right now though because we have such little info. I can see how both sides feel the way they do.

I'm with you, but I understand coach's point as well

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Leach has went to a bowl game 16 of the past 18 years. The chances of us going 3-9 at any point in his tenure with SEC athletes is basically zero.

Regardless of what we lose on offense &, if Kylin comes back, what do we REALLY lose....

Do you really think Mike Leach, MIKE 17ING LEACH, is going to put an offense on the field next year that's as big of a cluster 17 as Joe's?

Do you really think our offense will regress from what we had this year?

Personally, I don't believe Mike Leach would be caught dead with an offense as bad as Joe's. I mean, this is Mike 17ing Leach guys

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Originally Posted by ShotgunDawg

Regardless of what we lose on offense &, if Kylin comes back, what do we REALLY lose....

Do you really think Mike Leach, MIKE 17ING LEACH, is going to put an offense on the field next year that's as big of a cluster 17 as Joe's?

Do you really think our offense will regress from what we had this year?

Personally, I don't believe Mike Leach would be caught dead with an offense as bad as Joe's. I mean, this is Mike 17ing Leach guys

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I think there'll be some growing pains. And Hill has a lot of changing to do to play for Leach. Leach don't cater to primadonnas who live on Twitter and won't block.

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Originally Posted by dawgday166

I think there'll be some growing pains. And Hill has a lot of changing to do to play for Leach. Leach don't cater to primadonnas who live on Twitter and won't block.

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No doubt there will be growing pains, but that wasn't the question: do you really think Mike Leach will put an offense on the field that is equal or worse than they dysfunctional mess Joe consistently put out there?

At least Leach offense , with the short quick passes, will move the chains and less 3 and outs. By that alone it will help take pressure off our D.....and against weaker teams where we might or will score 50-70 points a game our D is going to get lots of reps. Moorhead has so many 3 and outs it doesn?t matter that we ran 60% last year.

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Originally Posted by ShotgunDawg

No doubt there will be growing pains, but that wasn't the question: do you really think Mike Leach will put an offense on the field that is equal or worse than they dysfunctional mess Joe consistently put out there?

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Naw ... We'll at least look like we've been on a football field before. But executing at a high enough level to score 30+ against about 5 teams on our schedule may be a challenge. And then there's the young defense too.

Games 2 and 3 are huge, @NC State and Arkansas. Both were awful last year, and we've got to win both if we want to reach a bowl. Do it and we will just have to win 1 out of Mizzou, Kentucky, and Ole Miss to get one.

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Originally Posted by Coach34

Man you guys are nuts. Thinking we can win 8 or 9 in 2020 is hilarious. We will be closer to 3 than 9. Wow

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I think your wrong here you know a lot about football but I'm pretty damn smart on the subject myself. If your that sure about us sucking put some big money on it when vegas puts out over and unders on wins.

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Originally Posted by ShotgunDawg

You echo my thoughts.

I don't think it's worth debating right now though because we have such little info. I can see how both sides feel the way they do.

I'm with you, but I understand coach's point as well

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Why are you debating it?

If we're closer to 3 than 9, that means you're calling a 5-7 record, which means we only win 2 out of Arkansas, @NC State, Missouri, @Kentucky, and Ole Miss, which would be a disaster.

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Originally Posted by tireddawg

Why are you debating it?

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I'm discussing it.

To believe we are going to win less than 6, you have to believe that Mike Leach will put an offense on the field that will be worse than Joe's

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Originally Posted by ShotgunDawg

I'm discussing it.

To believe we are going to win less than 6, you have to believe that Mike Leach will put an offense on the field that will be worse than Joe's

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Hell most of these 17ers probably wanted to keep sloppy joe. I'm going to believe in Leach until proven otherwise.

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Originally Posted by ShotgunDawg

I'm discussing it.

To believe we are going to win less than 6, you have to believe that Mike Leach will put an offense on the field that will be worse than Joe's

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For the record I say 6 or 7. I also believe there may be a WTF loss .. or maybe 2. This ain't the 2018 team Leach is inheriting.

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Originally Posted by 99jc

Hell most of these 17ers probably wanted to keep sloppy joe. I'm going to believe in Leach until proven otherwise.

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Good lord you think COACH 34 wanted to keep Joe? You never saw me defend him this year either.

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Originally Posted by dawgday166

For the record I say 6 or 7. I also believe there may be a WTF loss .. or maybe 2. This ain't the 2018 team Leach is inheriting.

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It's hard to know what exactly he is inheriting because they have been so poorly coached. Recruiting rankings wise he is inheriting the most talented roster MSU has ever fielded. It's hard to quantify that into actual talent when the guys have been coached by Moorhead for the past 2 years. Hopefully a culture shift and a much better coach will show immediate results.

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Originally Posted by Quaoarsking

If we're closer to 3 than 9, that means you're calling a 5-7 record, which means we only win 2 out of Arkansas, @NC State, Missouri, @Kentucky, and Ole Miss, which would be a disaster.

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The only gimme there is the Swine, at least it should be.

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Originally Posted by 99jc

Hell most of these 17ers probably wanted to keep sloppy joe. I'm going to believe in Leach until proven otherwise.

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Easy to tell someone to bet in Vegas or say you won big when there is no way for anyone to verify that. Betting each other is the way to go.

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Originally Posted by Liverpooldawg

Good lord you think COACH 34 wanted to keep Joe? You never saw me defend him this year either.

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I never said you or him wanted to keep Him.

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Originally Posted by dawgday166

For the record I say 6 or 7. I also believe there may be a WTF loss .. or maybe 2. This ain't the 2018 team Leach is inheriting.

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The only games that would qualify as a WTF loss are New Mexico (won 8 games in 3 years, so not happening), Alabama A&M (SWAC), Arkansas (1 SEC win over the last 3 years, new coach, and in Starkville), and Tulane (most plausible on the list, but still very unlikely they come into Starkville and beat us)

It's very unlikely we have a WTF loss. If we miss a bowl, it's because we did poorly in the tossup/semi-tossups like Kentucky, Mizzou, Ole Miss, NC State.

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Originally Posted by Liverpooldawg

The only gimme there is the Swine, at least it should be.

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Yeah, but it would be a big disappointment to go 1-3 or worse against the other 4. None of those teams are going to be very good next year.

Like, could Missouri come into Starkville and beat us? Sure, they've got a lot better chance than Tulane or Arkansas. But they probably won't. They are mediocre and have a lot less proven of a head coach than we do.

Could we lose to NC State? Sure, it's on the road and will be only our 2nd game against Leach. But nobody is going to pick a 4-8 ACC team to turn around and beat a 6-6 team the next year. It's not like they had a bunch of close unlucky losses - they were repeatedly blown out throughout 2019.

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Originally Posted by Jarius

It's hard to know what exactly he is inheriting because they have been so poorly coached. Recruiting rankings wise he is inheriting the most talented roster MSU has ever fielded. It's hard to quantify that into actual talent when the guys have been coached by Moorhead for the past 2 years. Hopefully a culture shift and a much better coach will show immediate results.

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Maybe so from recruiting rankings but they ain't all very experienced Jrs and Srs with a Sr QB coming back. And they weren't developed by Mullen either.

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Originally Posted by Jarius

It's hard to know what exactly he is inheriting because they have been so poorly coached. Recruiting rankings wise he is inheriting the most talented roster MSU has ever fielded. It's hard to quantify that into actual talent when the guys have been coached by Moorhead for the past 2 years. Hopefully a culture shift and a much better coach will show immediate results.

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This

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Originally Posted by Quaoarsking

The only games that would qualify as a WTF loss are New Mexico (won 8 games in 3 years, so not happening), Alabama A&M (SWAC), Arkansas (1 SEC win over the last 3 years, new coach, and in Starkville), and Tulane (most plausible on the list, but still very unlikely they come into Starkville and beat us)

It's very unlikely we have a WTF loss. If we miss a bowl, it's because we did poorly in the tossup/semi-tossups like Kentucky, Mizzou, Ole Miss, NC State.

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I agree with this but I was calling WTF loss as one of your (and mine too) tossups. Most everyone calling 8 or 9 wins think those tossups are sure wins.

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Originally Posted by Jarius

This will be one of if not the easiest schedules we have had in my lifetime. If we suck it's because of other reasons. Not our schedule. It's hard to believe anyone would complain about playing a terrible Missouri team and Kentucky in the East with 4 awful non conference teams. Next year is set up to pad some wins if Leach has any pulse on offense. The defense will be improved from this year if we make a decent coordinator hire. Basically everyone that consistently played on defense last year outside of Leo, Rivers, and Cole is returning and we are adding some big time juco players. I expect 6-7 wins. 8 is in the picture if Leach can find a quarterback in year one. We are nowhere near a 3 win team talent wise. We have looked like shit because of our head coach, not talent. We have a higher recruiting profile than 8 teams on our schedule next year and we just hired a coach that has done more with less at every single place he's been at.

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Mizzou returns 19 starters
Kentucky returns 17 starters and we play at their place.
NC State returns 19 starters and we play at their place
A&M returns 17 starters

Those games are toss-ups at best. We likely lose 3 of 4 if not all 4

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Originally Posted by ShotgunDawg

I'm discussing it.

To believe we are going to win less than 6, you have to believe that Mike Leach will put an offense on the field that will be worse than Joe's

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It's not the O that I'm concerned about.

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Originally Posted by Coach34

Mizzou returns 19 starters
Kentucky returns 17 starters and we play at their place.
NC State returns 19 starters and we play at their place
A&M returns 17 starters

Those games are toss-ups at best. We likely lose 3 of 4 if not all 4

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I doubt it unless everything falls apart.

Looks like you're thinking the program implodes

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Originally Posted by Quaoarsking

If we're closer to 3 than 9, that means you're calling a 5-7 record, which means we only win 2 out of Arkansas, @NC State, Missouri, @Kentucky, and Ole Miss, which would be a disaster.

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We will be underdogs 3 out of those 5....We could easily lose NC State, Mizzou, and Kentucky

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Originally Posted by tireddawg

It's not the O that I'm concerned about.

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So it's not about growing pains then?

The DL will be better, the LBs will look like they did without Willie Gay, & the secondary will be young, but Dantzler pretty much decided to sit this season out anyway. Having Murphy for every game will help

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Originally Posted by Coach34

Mizzou returns 19 starters
Kentucky returns 17 starters and we play at their place.
NC State returns 19 starters and we play at their place
A&M returns 17 starters

Those games are toss-ups at best. We likely lose 3 of 4 if not all 4

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I'm counting TAM as a sure loss.

Regardless of what people think now ... Ky is a tossup every year at this point in our program until Leach rights the ship. Stoops has established a good culture and program there. I'm counting Ky as a loss cause it at their place.