S&P+ is a believer in our defense

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Originally Posted by msstate7

I love PFF for nfl, but I'm not so sure about their college ratings. PFF's top 50 on April 1, 2019, had sweat at #46 with aj brown and dk Metcalf top 20

https://www.pff.com/news/draft-pffs-...fe02f60a24060d

You agree with them?

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I trust them a lot more than Walter football. Which is who you are going off of.

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Originally Posted by Todd4State

I trust them a lot more than Walter football. Which is who you are going off of.

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Pick any mock

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Originally Posted by Cowbell

Only because of the logo on their jersey. You, like many of our fans, need to realize that the jersey doesn?t make the player. So many just assume their players are better at every position. That?s not at all the case. I will never forget our o-line punishing their d-line in 2017. Punishing. As in physically dominating them in the second half.

NFL teams took Alabama and Clemson players before Simmons and we all know who the best is.

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The reason why Simmons dropped had nothing to do with his jersey. We all know why.

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Originally Posted by msstate7

Pick any mock

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Pick one that is actually objective and doesn't look at the name of the jersey at this point. All of them are way off at this time and not worth a dime. I'm basing my opinion on actual objective data. Which is a lot less flawed than Bama Network CBS mock draft or Walter Football.

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Originally Posted by Todd4State

The reason why Simmons dropped had nothing to do with his jersey. We all know why.

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And he had a serious knee injury

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Originally Posted by Cowbell

NFL teams took Alabama and Clemson players before Simmons and we all know who the best is.

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Your general point may be correct, but this is a bad example. Simmons was injured and won't be able to play for most of the season. How many times has ANY injured player been picked in the first round?

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Originally Posted by msstate7

Pick any mock

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No mock draft is an accurate indicator of how good a COLLEGE football player someone is. They are projections of a player's PRO prospects. As you correctly pointed out, some guys have better measurables. That does not make them a better college player.


We can all argue who had the best linebacker group, but pro draft projections and even the pro draft is not indicative of how good a player is in college.

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Originally Posted by dantheman4248

DL has always been plug and play for us.

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The 2016 football season called. They say you're full of shit on this statement.

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Originally Posted by ShotgunDawg

I'm not sure if he's anywhere close to the same type of tackler or has the instincts, but he is absolutely more explosive

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I think there are guys who want to be like Abram's on that roster and are going to play like him.

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Originally Posted by 1bigdawg

No mock draft is an accurate indicator of how good a COLLEGE football player someone is. They are projections of a player's PRO prospects. As you correctly pointed out, some guys have better measurables. That does not make them a better college player.


We can all argue who had the best linebacker group, but pro draft projections and even the pro draft is not indicative of how good a player is in college.

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That's true, but Moses is projected 1st team AA this year. He was 2nd team all sec by coaches last year. He's 1st team all sec preseason, along with his team mate (Jennings) and Thompson. When all this lines up with the mock, I think it's pretty clear Moses is the real deal.

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Originally Posted by msstate7

That's true, but Moses is projected 1st team AA this year. He was 2nd team all sec by coaches last year. He's 1st team all sec preseason, along with his team mate (Jennings) and Thompson. When all this lines up with the mock, I think it's pretty clear Moses is the real deal.

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I don't necessarily agree with the line above about mock drafts being biased by the logo on the helmet, but I definitely think "all-whatever" teams are.

Having said that, I have not staked out a position on who was better, only that the mock drafts were not a reliable indicator.

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Originally Posted by 1bigdawg

I don't necessarily agree with the line above about mock drafts being biased by the logo on the helmet, but I definitely think "all-whatever" teams are.

Having said that, I have not staked out a position on who was better, only that the mock drafts were not a reliable indicator.

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When deciding who I thought had a better lb core, I pictured both teams' top 3 along a wall and thought in what order would I pic them if I were building a team. My first pick would be Moses. My 2nd/3rd picks would be Thompson/Jennings. 4th/5th would be gay/Lewis. My 6th would be Leo, no doubt. Bc my first pick is Moses and the last is Leo, I think that shifts things in bama's favor

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Originally Posted by msstate7

I think equal in secondary is to be determined. Abram is a big loss

DL was by far the strength of our team last year and it goes to probably one of the biggest question marks on the whole team. Simmons and sweat were a freakish combo. We won't have that that insane inside/outside combo... how much did those 2 help our back end? Hard to say, but I do think they did

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Andrews is listed at #8 in the nation safety.

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Originally Posted by msstate7

Our LBs aren't better than Bama's

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I'm not sure what this has to do with MSU having a great defense

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Originally Posted by Coach007

I'm not sure what this has to do with MSU having a great defense

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It doesn't. We can be a damn good defense, and still not be better than Bama at lb

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Originally Posted by bulldawg28

Cole is better than Abrams. Watch how many more game changing plays he makes this year.

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Maybe Cole has a great year and drafted high but don't think that statement can be made in preseason. Abram was best safety in college last year. Chance of us having the next best safety a year later would be rare. Cole is very good and will not be much drop off. We could have best tandem CB in SEC and country again (Banks Slay, Bean Smoot).

Landrews and Morgan complete a dynamic DB group that as a whole I think is better than last year.

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Originally Posted by msstate7

Pick any mock you want and tell me where they fall. Tell you what.... I'll say 2 of theirs go before one of ours for a permanent ban bet. Moses is a given.

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Again.. What the HELL does this have to do with MSU have a strong defense?

There were 4 DTs taken before Simmons.. 5 DE before Sweat.. Did that make our defense any less than #1 on the year???

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Originally Posted by Todd4State

Pick one that is actually objective and doesn't look at the name of the jersey at this point. All of them are way off at this time and not worth a dime. I'm basing my opinion on actual objective data. Which is a lot less flawed than Bama Network CBS mock draft or Walter Football.

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(to both of you and others) Keep in mind this is an MSU sports board. Generally we should care a lot more about college production than NFL draft position or even long-term NFL production. I know I do. There might be a guy who produces crazy good for MSU but not drafted as high because the NFL thinks he's too short, etc. So someone who produces more for State is 'better' than a guy who is drafted higher or does better in the NFL but produced less for State.

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Originally Posted by R2Dawg

Maybe Cole has a great year and drafted high but don't think that statement can be made in preseason. Abram was best safety in college last year. Chance of us having the next best safety a year later would be rare. Cole is very good and will not be much drop off. We could have best tandem CB in SEC and country again (Banks Slay, Bean Smoot).

Landrews and Morgan complete a dynamic DB group that as a whole I think is better than last year.

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Meh

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Originally Posted by msstate7

https://i.postimg.cc/DZhMCkXP/2631-C...F04420-A39.jpg


I think they're too high on our defense, but pretty cool to see us listed that high.

They really like tenn's offense

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Shocked you would think someone is too high on our team.

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Originally Posted by 1bigdawg

Your general point may be correct, but this is a bad example. Simmons was injured and won't be able to play for most of the season. How many times has ANY injured player been picked in the first round?

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Hence the reason I put Sweat...

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Originally Posted by MaroonFlounder

The 2016 football season called. They say you're full of shit on this statement.

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Peter Sirmon was to blame. Not lack of DL talent. AJ Jefferson, Nick James, Jeffrey Simmons, Gerri Green, Nelson Adams, and Johnathan Calvin. Yea this a bad take. Bad record != Bad defensive line == FALSE

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Originally Posted by msstate7

Moses is the best lb in the sec. I'll take Jennings, Moses, and Lewis over our guys all day, every day... and I like our guys, but come on mane

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If you put Bamas LBs on our defense they wouldnt be nearly as good. And vice versa. I do think Erroll and Willie can go toe to toe with them. Willie is the most athletic LB State has ever had. He could easily play S or CB. He is long enough and fast enough

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Originally Posted by dantheman4248

Peter Sirmon was to blame. Not lack of DL talent. AJ Jefferson, Nick James, Jeffrey Simmons, Gerri Green, Nelson Adams, and Johnathan Calvin. Yea this a bad take. Bad record != Bad defensive line == FALSE

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Plug and play implies you just put them in there and let them go. Arkansas ran over around and thru that D-Line. That's not all coaching. Why didn't that unit perform better? Ark never punted in that game. I refuse to believe it was all scheme. Maybe they quit on Sirmon. They did play well the next week though, shutting out the Landsharks 2nd half in the Egg.

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Originally Posted by MaroonFlounder

Plug and play implies you just put them in there and let them go. Arkansas ran over around and thru that D-Line. That's not all coaching. Why didn't that unit perform better? Ark never punted in that game. I refuse to believe it was all scheme. Maybe they quit on Sirmon. They did play well the next week though, shutting out the Landsharks 2nd half in the Egg.

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I mean that defense went from being bottom tier to top 10 in one year. That DL lost guys who made huge impacts for us. It was very clearly awful scheming and poor talent utilization. Every other year this century has had solid DL play. We are a bit of a DL factory for the NFL. Again i’m not worried. We have a great coach on defense.

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Originally Posted by BuckyIsAB****

If you put Bamas LBs on our defense they wouldnt be nearly as good. And vice versa. I do think Erroll and Willie can go toe to toe with them. Willie is the most athletic LB State has ever had. He could easily play S or CB. He is long enough and fast enough

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Willie's good but he's not a secondary position player.

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Originally Posted by bulldawg28

Willie's good but he's not a secondary position player.

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He could easily play safety or corner. No doubt in my mind. Jamal Peters did it and Willie is way better than he is. Mentally for sure physically they are a lot alike

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Originally Posted by msstate7

It doesn't. We can be a damn good defense, and still not be better than Bama at lb

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Well that is opinion just like most other statements made by anyone this time of year but if you look at results and returning snaps, we are just as good as Bama at LB. Look at history our D talent is never preseason ranked as high due to name on the jersey but come draft time we fair pretty good.

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Originally Posted by BuckyIsAB****

He could easily play safety or corner. No doubt in my mind. Jamal Peters did it and Willie is way better than he is. Mentally for sure physically they are a lot alike

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Lol..no sir. He doesn't have the quick twitch, change of direction, or ball skills to play those positions especially corner. Box safety maybe.

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Originally Posted by Todd4State

People forget that Courtney Rivers, Kobe, Spencer, and Adams have been productive when they played. Autry may be a day three pick and is a solid senior at DT. And while we lack experience at DT we have several former four star guys there- Lovett, Pickering, and Crumedy. So there is talent there and they will be flanked by guys with experience.

So while we won't be Sweat and Simmons good we won't fall off the face of the Earth either. And we have the linebackers who we can blitz and use to apply pressure more to take some heat off of the defensive line. We'll see if Shoop does it.
Dan has persistent common sense issues with personnel where he didn't take advantage of our talent or strengths usually to play someone like Zach Jackson or Kivon Coman who was an upperclassman. We'll see if Shoop has better common sense.

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If, and its a big if those young DL can occupy double teams and still push the pile. That is what we did last year and it forced the QB out of his comfort zone and made the offenses we played to adjust their passing lanes and running lanes.

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Originally Posted by bulldawg28

Lol..no sir. He doesn't have the quick twitch, change of direction, or ball skills to play those positions especially corner. Box safety maybe.

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Im not sure we are talking about the same kid. Willie Gay has all of those in spades. To each his own I guess but his length would help him tremendously at either spot and he is a legit high 4.4-4.5 speed

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Originally Posted by Bdaski

If, and its a big if those young DL can occupy double teams and still push the pile. That is what we did last year and it forced the QB out of his comfort zone and made the offenses we played to adjust their passing lanes and running lanes.

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Why is that a "big" if? We have a senior that may play DT in the NFL at one spot. Then we have three guys that were four stars as the other DT's. Just because we lost a special DT that yes, we won't be able to replace doesn't mean that the rest of the guys are not capable of playing at a high level. The three freshmen are rated higher right now than the guys we lost except for Simmons.

Where would one find the S&P+ rankings?