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08-07-2018, 06:08 PM
Pit Bull

Quote:

Originally Posted by TUSK

One thing I thought Your former coach did well was slow the game down (vs Bammer) & limit plays/possessions.

I don?t know much about JoMo, is that style in his playbook?

Agree and I think it was a good move to shorten the game against BAMA. We hardly ever can match them straight up. I would do it again this year, but also agree we are not sure about JoMo's philosophy in those type games. He may want to go all out regardless. If we score on a lot of possessions, it could work....if it results in a lot of 3 and outs MSU suffers greatly.
08-07-2018, 06:12 PM
StarkVegasSteve

[QUOTE=TrapGame;978529]

Quote:

Originally Posted by StarkVegasSteve

You left out JWS. He lost control of the program in 2001. That is the number one reason 2001 was such a bust. Moorhead and his coaching staff are light years ahead of where we were in 2001. My youngest daughter was born summer of 2001. She started her senior year of high school today.

I definitely agree that JWS had lost control of the program by that point. And I do believe that staff wise we are lightyears ahead of the 2001 JWS staff. My take was more from a player comparison standard. If you add in coaching and the things surrounding the program I believe you're correct that you can't compare 01 and 18 teams.
08-07-2018, 06:26 PM
QuadrupleOption

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bubb Rubb

It's just a different time and era. With the SEC money and upgraded facilities, State is a much more viable option for student athletes than it was before Mullen.

Mullen averaged just over 7 wins per season, while playing four cupcakes and Kentucky every year. He had a couple of spectacular seasons, and a bunch of mediocre to slightly better than average seasons. That's been done here before.

Like I said, Mullen was a good coach, and I understand the bowl streak is something that's never been done before. But it's important to remember the era. There are more bowl games than ever, and there are 12 game seasons now. In retrospect, outside of 2014, he really didn't do anything spectacular here. Mullen happened to be in the right place at the right time. Jackie accomplished more during the 97-2000 timeframe. It's my opinion that any competent coach can achieve 7/8 wins here every year with the occasional great year. The floor is higher, thanks in part to Mullen, but thanks in bigger part to the era, dynamics, SEC money, improved facilities, and extra cupcake on the schedule. Mullen couldn't raise the ceiling though. We will see if Moorhead can.

It's so easy to do that only Georgia, Alabama, LSU, and A&M have longer streaks than us in the SEC. It's an accomplishment. People acting like it isn't is a disservice to what Mullen did for our program.
08-07-2018, 07:18 PM
TrapGame

[QUOTE=StarkVegasSteve;978539]

Quote:

Originally Posted by TrapGame

I definitely agree that JWS had lost control of the program by that point. And I do believe that staff wise we are lightyears ahead of the 2001 JWS staff. My take was more from a player comparison standard. If you add in coaching and the things surrounding the program I believe you're correct that you can't compare 01 and 18 teams.

That's cool. I'm looking at everything from coaches to players, off the field crap and the span of time.

I think Mullen built a good foundation here, in spite of all his faults. That foundation that held up that 2001 team was so cracked.
08-07-2018, 07:22 PM
Liverpooldawg

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarketingBully

You truly are an insufferable fan looking as negatively as you can at a situation.

Wrong. I'm not looking at it from any slant. I just want to look at things before I establish any expectations, good or bad. I can see plenty of reasons for optimism, but I also can see some unknowns. I'm looking at football kind of like I looked at another team I follow on another level many years ago. I knew some things were good, but I had some questions. We opened against a really good team, they were answered, then I formed my expectations. That's not being positive or negative.
08-07-2018, 11:35 PM
Todd4State

Quote:

Originally Posted by Liverpooldawg

Wrong. I'm not looking at it from any slant. I just want to look at things before I establish any expectations, good or bad. I can see plenty of reasons for optimism, but I also can see some unknowns. I'm looking at football kind of like I looked at another team I follow on another level many years ago. I knew some things were good, but I had some questions. We opened against a really good team, they were answered, then I formed my expectations. That's not being positive or negative.

You're hoping like hell that Joe isn't any better than your boy Dan because it makes your "Who can we hire to replace our greatest coach since Allyn McKeen?" narrative even more silly.
08-07-2018, 11:57 PM
Todd4State

[QUOTE=StarkVegasSteve;978508]

Quote:

Originally Posted by TrapGame

C'mon man that's absolutely asinine to think this team has comparable similarities to 2001. You want to compare teams then we are talking more 98-99. Jackie Wayne was getting harassed by ole miss private eyes and had lost control in the locker room. That team sure didn't have a QB that was a dark horse for the Heisman.[/QUOTE

QB who were expected to have big seasons- Madkin/Fitz
Returning Tandem RB's- Dontae & Dicenzo/ Williams & Hill
Two WRs with a ton of hype- Grindle & Jenkins/ Guidry & Whop
Experienced scary DL- Tommy Kelly & Dorsett Davis/ Simmons and Sweat
Improved and veteran secondary- Banks, Wright, Byrdsong/ Dantzler, McLaurin, Abram

Now I agree with you on most parts of it and I believe our D line is truly a nightmare for any team, but to say the similarities aren't there just isn't true.

Not really.

First of all we have been consistent at winning a lot more than the 2001 team. Yes, 1998-2000 were good football seasons but the truth of the matter is we won a LOT of close games in 1999 and in 2000 our defense gave up a lot of points- 30+ in I believe 5-6 games. We also had Jackie Sherrill who was prone to lose to teams he shouldn't and basically had a personal rule that he could only truly get his team up for three games. Which made us very prone to losing to LSU and Arkansas every year. And Troy. Jackie's teams also lacked discipline on the field and racked up tons of penalties.

You can't compare Madkin to Fitz. That's like comparing Joe Montana to Jim McMahon. Jackie was not a great developer of QB's and we struggled with that position consistently under Jackie the entire time he was here except when Sleepy was our QB. Fitz is a NFL draft pick. He was recruited and developed by Dan who is one of the best at developing QB's and Joe has a history of being great with QB's as well.

Get back to me when Kylin shows up at 280 or whatever Dontae Walker weighed. Based on Jackie's reaction at the Extravaganza in Jackson that year I'm pretty sure even he had no idea that Dontae had gained that much weight. Hill has lost weight and is more athletic than he was last year. Aeris is going to be solid so not an issue.

WR's- maybe but I don't remember a lot of Grindle hype and if there was he had earned it with his performance and Jenkins played in the NFL and was pretty good. I don't remember anyone saying that either one could leave for the NFL early potentially like Guidry and I can't really say that Whop is hyped that much when we're not sure if he will beat our Austin Williams or not.

DL- Did you really compare Tommy Kelly and Dorsett Davis to a guy that is a probable first round or second round pick and a guy that led the SEC in sacks last year? The narrative in 2001 was that our JUCO guys from Arizona Western were going to step in and be good. This year the narrative is we're returning just about everyone and we have guys that are third string that have started for us and performed well. Not the same at all. Much closer to 1999 that 2001 in terms of comparisons.

DB- Banks and Wright were in their first year with us in 2001. Again- not the same at all. Especially when you factor in that we are returning the SEC leader in INT's.

There are other things too- our offensive line is better, Joe has a history of using TE's better than Jackie, TJ Mawhinney vs Leo Lewis- one of these is not like the other, and we have a proven kicker unlike 2001.

My advice- stop being chicken little and enjoy the moment.
08-08-2018, 07:23 AM
Sienfield

Maybe someone could ask Rosebowl. Isn't that why he got his nickname because he predicated state to play in the Rosebowl at the end of the 2001 season? At least some people had high expectations for the 2001 season.
08-08-2018, 07:57 AM
Liverpooldawg

Quote:

Originally Posted by QuadrupleOption

It's so easy to do that only Georgia, Alabama, LSU, and A&M have longer streaks than us in the SEC. It's an accomplishment. People acting like it isn't is a disservice to what Mullen did for our program.

Don't confuse them with facts.
08-08-2018, 07:58 AM
Liverpooldawg

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sienfield

Maybe someone could ask Rosebowl. Isn't that why he got his nickname because he predicated state to play in the Rosebowl at the end of the 2001 season? At least some people had high expectations for the 2001 season.

I heard JWS himself say we were going to the Rose Bowl, in person. Rosebowl didn't pull that out of thin air.
08-08-2018, 08:01 AM
Liverpooldawg

Quote:

Originally Posted by Todd4State

You're hoping like hell that Joe isn't any better than your boy Dan because it makes your "Who can we hire to replace our greatest coach since Allyn McKeen?" narrative even more silly.

That's totally asinine. Dan's gone. I just didn't want us to look stupid by firing the guy. Now I hope JoMo is the next irreplaceable coach. Do you get my drift now?
08-08-2018, 08:24 AM
Jarius

Mullen is an above average coach, but in order to become our "best ever" head coach, he had to overtake a guy with a .500 overall record at MSU. He had the advantage of coming to MSU when we got a huge influx of SEC money into the program, which separated us from the 4 nonconference opponents that he beat every year. He did a good job of beating SEC teams that were down (he beat some teams that were not down, but mostly teams that were down) and he consistently fielded an above average team. I appreciate what he did, but he's not what some people think he is.
08-08-2018, 09:07 AM
Turfdawg67

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bubb Rubb

It's just a different time and era. With the SEC money and upgraded facilities, State is a much more viable option for student athletes than it was before Mullen.

Mullen averaged just over 7 wins per season, while playing four cupcakes and Kentucky every year. He had a couple of spectacular seasons, and a bunch of mediocre to slightly better than average seasons. That's been done here before.

Like I said, Mullen was a good coach, and I understand the bowl streak is something that's never been done before. But it's important to remember the era. There are more bowl games than ever, and there are 12 game seasons now. In retrospect, outside of 2014, he really didn't do anything spectacular here. Mullen happened to be in the right place at the right time. Jackie accomplished more during the 97-2000 timeframe. It's my opinion that any competent coach can achieve 7/8 wins here every year with the occasional great year. The floor is higher, thanks in part to Mullen, but thanks in bigger part to the era, dynamics, SEC money, improved facilities, and extra cupcake on the schedule. Mullen couldn't raise the ceiling though. We will see if Moorhead can.

I love how people throw in UK as a cupcake for DM's success here. Hell, in the years before Dan, UK owned the overall record against us. They were not an expected win before Dan.
08-08-2018, 09:56 AM
thf24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Turfdawg67

I love how people throw in UK as a cupcake for DM's success here. Hell, in the years before Dan, UK owned the overall record against us. They were not an expected win before Dan.

Our record against them prior to Dan doesn't change the fact that they've been pretty bad in recent history outside of Rich Brooks' four years there.
08-08-2018, 11:57 AM
Liverpooldawg

Quote:

Originally Posted by thf24

Our record against them prior to Dan doesn't change the fact that they've been pretty bad in recent history outside of Rich Brooks' four years there.

They have always been pretty bad for the most part.
08-08-2018, 03:09 PM
Jarius

Quote:

Originally Posted by Liverpooldawg

They have always been pretty bad for the most part.

That says more about our former coaches than it does Dan Mullen.
08-08-2018, 03:51 PM
Johnson85

Quote:

Originally Posted by Turfdawg67

I love how people throw in UK as a cupcake for DM's success here. Hell, in the years before Dan, UK owned the overall record against us. They were not an expected win before Dan.

To be fair, they were explicitly listed separately from the 4 cupcakes. They are the best choice for a permanent east opponent outside of vanderbilt. They are generally not going to be good, but they also are not so behind MSU that any ole coach MSU picks up can beat them more than 65% of the time.
08-08-2018, 04:56 PM
Turfdawg67

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jarius

That says more about our former coaches than it does Dan Mullen.

Ok. Then it goes back to Mullen being the best shitty coach than all of our other shitty coaches. He beat the teams he was supposed to beat 90% of the time.
08-08-2018, 07:19 PM
Jarius

Quote:

Originally Posted by Turfdawg67

Ok. Then it goes back to Mullen being the best shitty coach than all of our other shitty coaches. He beat the teams he was supposed to beat 90% of the time.

Yes, and he deserves credit for that. If we had a 100 million dollar budget for the past 100 years, we would not be praising him near as much because we would have had better facilities and hired better coaches long before he got here. Like I said, he came at the perfect time. And before you say it, I know our budget is still last in the conference, but we don’t lose kids to other programs because of facilities nor do we lose coaches due to money any more in any sport. There comes a point where more money has diminishing returns and college football in the SEC is starting to hit that point.
08-08-2018, 07:36 PM
Liverpooldawg

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jarius

Yes, and he deserves credit for that. If we had a 100 million dollar budget for the past 100 years, we would not be praising him near as much because we would have had better facilities and hired better coaches long before he got here. Like I said, he came at the perfect time. And before you say it, I know our budget is still last in the conference, but we don’t lose kids to other programs because of facilities nor do we lose coaches due to money any more in any sport. There comes a point where more money has diminishing returns and college football in the SEC is starting to hit that point.

Our standing money wise vs the rest of the SEC hasn't changed a bit. Nor have our facilities.
08-08-2018, 07:45 PM
Cooterpoot

Mullen got an extra cream puff every year too. He was .500 vs our rival. Lost to S.AL. And is the only coach I can remember us having that never beat AL. He was a solid coach but nothing great. Talked more than he achieved. Gave up end of the season every year. Without 2014, we wouldn’t even care.
08-08-2018, 08:21 PM
Jarius

Quote:

Originally Posted by Liverpooldawg

Our standing money wise vs the rest of the SEC hasn't changed a bit. Nor have our facilities.

Maybe you should read my post again, slowly, and understand why that does not matter. When your budget gets into the hundreds of millions of dollars, everyone has nice shit and money is not an issue. When we had Sherrill’s budget, we had facilities that looked like something out of The Waterboy.
08-08-2018, 08:29 PM
Cooterpoot

Dan Mullen won 10 more games over his 9 years than Sherrill. He had 9 extra regular season games and a bowl game with a losing record.
08-08-2018, 09:19 PM
Liverpooldawg

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jarius

Maybe you should read my post again, slowly, and understand why that does not matter. When your budget gets into the hundreds of millions of dollars, everyone has nice shit and money is not an issue. When we had Sherrill’s budget, we had facilities that looked like something out of The Waterboy.

But it does matter. The rest of the SEC's facilities are still, relativity speaking, about the same level above ours as they ever were. What I WILL give you is that ours are exponentially improved vs the non-Power 5 (I'm referring to YOU USM) and much improved relative to most of the non-SEC.
08-08-2018, 09:25 PM
Jarius

Quote:

Originally Posted by Liverpooldawg

But it does matter. The rest of the SEC's facilities are still, relativity speaking, about the same level above ours as they ever were. What I WILL give you is that ours are exponentially improved vs the non-Power 5 (I'm referring to YOU USM) and much improved relative to most of the non-SEC.

No they are not. When a recruit walks into our stadium or our facilities they do not ask why we don’t have the same things everyone else has. At a certain point, facilities just become nice. We have not lost a recruit due to facilities since the Seal complex was built. It doesn’t give us a leg up, but it doesn’t make us start out the recruiting process with our hands behind our back like every other coach had to do. Mullen was given every single facilities upgrade he wanted. We are not losing recruits because of facilities or because we have a stadium that looks like a high school venue any more.
08-08-2018, 09:31 PM
Liverpooldawg

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cooterpoot

Mullen got an extra cream puff every year too. He was .500 vs our rival. Lost to S.AL. And is the only coach I can remember us having that never beat AL. He was a solid coach but nothing great. Talked more than he achieved. Gave up end of the season every year. Without 2014, we wouldn’t even care.

I swear some of y'all sound like that guy that just got dumped by a trophy wife with a bigger bank account than yours. Y'all are just looking for stuff to make it look better. Dan did a great job here, and he is no longer here. I'm more like, she is gone but it was damn good while it lasted, thank you mam! ...on to the next one.

Seriously it's the first time that most of us remember a football coach actually leaving us for another job on his own initiative. I'm in my 50's and my parents hadn't even MET the last time that happened. I don't think we have EVER have one do it that stayed as long as Mullen did. They have been few and far between in ANY sport. That my friends, tells you all you really need to know about how good a job Mullen did here, if you look at it realistically and unemotionally. It is an ENORMOUS step in the right direction for MSU Football.
08-08-2018, 09:32 PM
Liverpooldawg

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jarius

No they are not. When a recruit walks into our stadium or our facilities they do not ask why we don’t have the same things everyone else has. At a certain point, facilities just become nice. We have not lost a recruit due to facilities since the Seal complex was built. It doesn’t give us a leg up, but it doesn’t make us start out the recruiting process with our hands behind our back like every other coach had to do. Mullen was given every single facilities upgrade he wanted. We are not losing recruits because of facilities or because we have a stadium that looks like a high school venue any more.

Dude we DON'T have the same things most of the SEC has. Don't be a provincial.
08-08-2018, 09:34 PM
Jarius

Mullen was a step in the right direction. I don’t think anyone denies that. He just isn’t a great coach. He’s pretty good, and had advantages no other state coach has ever had, like I just pointed out.
08-08-2018, 09:36 PM
Turfdawg67

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jarius

Yes, and he deserves credit for that. If we had a 100 million dollar budget for the past 100 years, we would not be praising him near as much because we would have had better facilities and hired better coaches long before he got here. Like I said, he came at the perfect time. And before you say it, I know our budget is still last in the conference, but we don?t lose kids to other programs because of facilities nor do we lose coaches due to money any more in any sport. There comes a point where more money has diminishing returns and college football in the SEC is starting to hit that point.

Agreed. I believe The Kang, until outside forces and his losing control of our team towards the end, would've put us easily in the upper echelon of the SEC... maybe sooner if he could've beat the downtrodden LSU teams of the '90s.
08-08-2018, 09:36 PM
Cooterpoot

Quote:

Originally Posted by Liverpooldawg

I swear some of y'all sound like that guy that just got dumped by a trophy wife with a bigger bank account than yours. Y'all are just looking for stuff to make it look better. Dan did a great job here, and he is no longer here. I'm more like, she is gone but it was damn good while it lasted, thank you mam! ...on to the next one.

Seriously it's the first time that most of us remember a football coach actually leaving us for another job on his own initiative. I'm in my 50's and my parents hadn't even MET the last time that happened. I don't think we have EVER have one do it that stayed as long as Mullen did. They have been few and far between in ANY sport. That my friends, tells you all you really need to know about how good a job Mullen did here, if you look at it realistically and unemotionally. It is an ENORMOUS step in the right direction for MSU Football.

Hev? That you?
He stayed because he couldn’t get a job til his buddy offered. He was TN’s 10th option.
08-08-2018, 09:37 PM
Jarius

Quote:

Originally Posted by Liverpooldawg

Dude we DON'T have the same things most of the SEC has. Don't be a provincial.

We have things close enough that recruits are no longer turning us down because of facilities. If you need proof, look at how much our recruiting improved while Mullen was here and now Moorhead as well.
08-08-2018, 09:39 PM
Turfdawg67

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jarius

Mullen was a step in the right direction. I don’t think anyone denies that. He just isn’t a great coach. He’s pretty good, and had advantages no other state coach has ever had, like I just pointed out.

When he was good, he was very good (see LSU last year). But when he was not focused, like 2-3 OM games, we would not look at all the same... with the same players.
08-08-2018, 09:49 PM
Liverpooldawg

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jarius

We have things close enough that recruits are no longer turning us down because of facilities. If you need proof, look at how much our recruiting improved while Mullen was here and now Moorhead as well.

And you know this how? Again, it's all relative. We are still about where we always were in the SEC when it comes to the things money buys. I will give you that USM isn't picking off guys because their facilities are close to ours anymore.
08-08-2018, 10:01 PM
Jarius

I know this because our average recruiting ranking went up 9 spots under Mullen, which coincides with our facilities upgrades, and Moorhead is recruiting even better. Mullen is recruiting at the same level at Florida as he did here. He inherited a transition class last year at Florida that was loaded and it dropped to around 13 even after closing well. He’s not recruiting any better this year at Florida than he did at MSU.

It’s not all relative. When your competitors are buying Lambos and you are buying accords you have no chance. When your competition is buying lambos amd Ferraris and you are just buying lambos, you have a shot.
08-08-2018, 10:21 PM
Todd4State

Quote:

Originally Posted by Liverpooldawg

That's totally asinine. Dan's gone. I just didn't want us to look stupid by firing the guy. Now I hope JoMo is the next irreplaceable coach. Do you get my drift now?

I don't recall ever saying that we should fire Dan or anyone else. I do recall saying I don't care if he left and it would be the best thing for both MSU and Dan if he just left. And I'm VERY happy he did.
08-08-2018, 10:22 PM
Todd4State

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jarius

I know this because our average recruiting ranking went up 9 spots under Mullen, which coincides with our facilities upgrades, and Moorhead is recruiting even better. Mullen is recruiting at the same level at Florida as he did here. He inherited a transition class last year at Florida that was loaded and it dropped to around 13 even after closing well. He’s not recruiting any better this year at Florida than he did at MSU.

It’s not all relative. When your competitors are buying Lambos and you are buying accords you have no chance. When your competition is buying lambos amd Ferraris and you are just buying lambos, you have a shot.

You're absolutely killing it. Dan is what he is- average to above average. He was VERY fortunate to be at a school that has a relatively bad history and also has an extremely patient fan base in football. As I think he is about to find out.
08-08-2018, 10:24 PM
Liverpooldawg

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cooterpoot

Hev? That you?
He stayed because he couldn’t get a job til his buddy offered. He was TN’s 10th option.

Nope. Perfect example of what I'm talking about.
08-08-2018, 10:28 PM
Liverpooldawg

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jarius

I know this because our average recruiting ranking went up 9 spots under Mullen, which coincides with our facilities upgrades, and Moorhead is recruiting even better. Mullen is recruiting at the same level at Florida as he did here. He inherited a transition class last year at Florida that was loaded and it dropped to around 13 even after closing well. He’s not recruiting any better this year at Florida than he did at MSU.

It’s not all relative. When your competitors are buying Lambos and you are buying accords you have no chance. When your competition is buying lambos amd Ferraris and you are just buying lambos, you have a shot.

Lol, another perfect example. We are still exactly where we always have been money wise in the SEC. you gave an imperfect analogy. The upper echelon of the SEC are dabbling in Fomula One. We are buying 911s off the lot. In the old days they were buying 911s and we were buying base RX-7s.
08-08-2018, 10:31 PM
Liverpooldawg

Quote:

Originally Posted by Todd4State

You're absolutely killing it. Dan is what he is- average to above average. He was VERY fortunate to be at a school that has a relatively bad history and also has an extremely patient fan base in football. As I think he is about to find out.

Yep, he is. But he isn't killing what you and him think. Discard your emotions. Think rationally. I hope JoMo is reviled for the same reasons when HE leaves. That really WOULD be a huge step toward what we all want.
08-09-2018, 05:52 AM
BrunswickDawg

Quote:

Originally Posted by Liverpooldawg

But it does matter. The rest of the SEC's facilities are still, relativity speaking, about the same level above ours as they ever were. What I WILL give you is that ours are exponentially improved vs the non-Power 5 (I'm referring to YOU USM) and much improved relative to most of the non-SEC.

No, their facilities are not. Our facilities are above Vandy, OM, UF, KY, Arky and Mo at least. If UGA hasn't gotten their IPF, we would be on par with them. Some of them have larger stadiums, but larger is not better.

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