O.T. cuz 34 OK's. Why John Bonham was Rock's greatest. Not even close.

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03-12-2018, 01:15 PM
Prediction? Pain.

Quote:

Originally Posted by drummerdawg

Need to break the drummers down in to categories because "rock" can be broken down into 50+ genres itself. And you can't really compare the drumming of someone like Ringo to the drumming of Joey Jordison. What are we looking for in "greatest" rock drummer? For me it's as much about being original and creative and having your own distinct style of play as it is playing difficult things. I've seen drummers play fast as hell but struggled with slow songs. Ringo isn't one of my favorites, but I respect him because he played his music perfectly and I don't mean that in a technical way, he just played exactly what needed to be played on each song. To me you're great when a song comes on the radio and you know who's playing drums even before you know what band it is. This is what separates the Pearts, Barkers, Carreys, Hawkins and Ringos of the world.

Great post. Just like with rock guitar, technical proficiency and speed on drums can make for some impressive solos, but they won't necessarily make you a great rock drummer. Ringo's a solid example. Another's Nick Mason of Pink Floyd. I have no doubt that Bonham, Peart, Ginger Baker, and a host of others could drum circles around Mason in many ways. But his style was perfect for his band -- rolling but understated waves of rhythm, probably a touch behind the beat, that added a sort of slow-motion, liquidized layer to the atmosphere that they were creating on their records. Steve Shelley of Sonic Youth comes to mind. His sound, both in fills and throughout Sonic Youth's choruses, verses, and noise collages, has always stood out to me. I don't think just any drummer, even technically gifted speed demons, could do what he did in a band like that.

One of my favs that no one has mentioned is Mitch Mitchell from the Jimi Hendrix Experience. Maybe more jazzy in style like Ginger Baker or Robert Wyatt (whose drumming with the Soft Machine back in the day was pretty damn stout, too), but nonetheless a classic rock drummer. I was always just as impressed listening to his drum parts as I was with Moon and Bonham.
03-12-2018, 01:19 PM
BeardoMSU

Quote:

Originally Posted by drummerdawg

I agree with the last part, but Neil does a lot more than just play perfectly.

I know, I was just using the "difficult/technical/perfect=best drummer" as a point of contention in this debate....by no means do I think Peart isn't also musical. He is. Like I said before, I like Peart a lot...but, and I'm not accusing others of in this thread of this, but I always see discussions for "X is the greatest [band, or drummer, guitar player, singer, etc.] of all time", with the reasoning behind that distinction being the level of precision and technicality in their style of play.

As you just said in your recent post, there is such a level of nuance between different genres of rock music and what is required of the drummers that play them, it really is impossible to make apples to apples comparisons across those genres.

Speaking of a drummer being very minimalistic, but whose play fits the music absolutely perfectly...I give you all: Phil Rudd

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pAgnJDJN4VA
03-12-2018, 01:27 PM
Xtracheesed

For most discussions like this, "rock" = anything not overly classical, nor the strictly jazz guys. But def hard to pigeonhole this subject.

Always loved a rock solid 2&4 drummer, but just couldn't get into Ringo's style. I'd take a Charlie Watts any day over somebody like him.

Bonzo just made everything groove and swing. Everything. Peart, Mangini, Portnoy, Jordison, etc...just robotic with no feel, to me. Bonham's parts were so creative and musical...never too much, never too tight. How a drummer can be loose and tight at the same time, I can't really explain, but JB pulled it off. Even his solos were musical...and I freaking hate most drum solos. Snore.

(respect to NP tho. His A Show Of Hands solo is quite nice for a hit-lots-of-stuff-fast bit)
03-12-2018, 01:31 PM
Xtracheesed

Quote:

Originally Posted by BeardoMSU

Speaking of a drummer being very minimalistic, but whose play fits the music absolutely perfectly...I give you all: Phil Rudd

Nice. That guy has mastered the art of playing on the very tail end of the beat. One of the best 2&4 guys around.

Here's another that doesn't get his due: Brad Wilk. Kick, snare, floor tom. That's it, or at least was for a while. First RATM album is one of the greatest recorded rock drum performances ever.
03-12-2018, 02:49 PM
drummerdawg

While I'm not not a big fan of him being an actual member of Korn, Ray Luzier has some mad skills.

Doing some Korn songs
https://youtu.be/1yK5-EdSmCg

Love his drumming on this song but if you don't want to listen to the whole song just fast forward to 3:10.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tKjfToyUrew
03-12-2018, 05:09 PM
Bothrops

Lars is widely regarded as a shell of his younger self, but the drum tracks he laid down on the Justice album are some of my all time favorite rhythms. He did a masterful job on that record.
03-12-2018, 09:06 PM
Drugdog

I think Peart, Bonum.

Just curious why no Tommy Lee?
03-12-2018, 09:51 PM
BeardoMSU

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drugdog

Just curious why no Tommy Lee?

Lol...
03-13-2018, 07:42 AM
Uncivilengineer

I think I know you Extra Cheesed. LOL
03-13-2018, 08:55 AM
Xtracheesed

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bothrops

Lars is widely regarded as a shell of his younger self, but the drum tracks he laid down on the Justice album are some of my all time favorite rhythms. He did a masterful job on that record.

Man. Couldn't agree more on all points. (and AJFA is my vote for greatest metal album of all time) If you can find the article, there was a write-up on how that album was recorded. The engineer (Bob Rock?) told Lars that he was hitting so hard that they had to stop every 8 bars or so to re-tune. The truth is that Lars can't keep time to save his life and speeds up every song, and (I believe) refused to change his playing. They spliced it all together at the end somehow.

There is a somewhat recent clip of them doing One floating around somewhere. Lars doesn't even make an effort to play that part anymore. :(
03-13-2018, 09:32 AM
BrunswickDawg

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xtracheesed

Man. Couldn't agree more on all points. (and AJFA is my vote for greatest metal album of all time) If you can find the article, there was a write-up on how that album was recorded. The engineer (Bob Rock?) told Lars that he was hitting so hard that they had to stop every 8 bars or so to re-tune. The truth is that Lars can't keep time to save his life and speeds up every song, and (I believe) refused to change his playing. They spliced it all together at the end somehow.

There is a somewhat recent clip of them doing One floating around somewhere. Lars doesn't even make an effort to play that part anymore. :(

See, that's why I think you also have to consider Peart. Peart on the R40 tour in 2015 was just as much of a monster sound wise - at age 62- as he was when I first saw Rush live in 1989. Neil even talked in one of the documentaries about how he had to change his overall technique in his 50s to be able to continue to tour. He brought in a top jazz percussion teacher to refine his movements and minimize the impact rock drumming had on his body. 62 years old and he could still play all the parts.
03-13-2018, 10:01 AM
Xtracheesed

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrunswickDawg

See, that's why I think you also have to consider Peart. Peart on the R40 tour in 2015 was just as much of a monster sound wise - at age 62- as he was when I first saw Rush live in 1989. Neil even talked in one of the documentaries about how he had to change his overall technique in his 50s to be able to continue to tour. He brought in a top jazz percussion teacher to refine his movements and minimize the impact rock drumming had on his body. 62 years old and he could still play all the parts.

Peart is a one trick pony, which is why he doesn't even make my top 5. Don't get me wrong...Moving Pictures and Power Windows are two of my fave albums ever, and his drum parts are unreal. At least some part of my tinnitus is due to long drives with one or the other blasting at full volume. Are you talking about the Jim Chapin thing? Or maybe I have him confused with someone else. I knew that Neil switched to traditional grip for a while, but he just couldn't play the same that way. It's hard for any drummer not named Stewart Copeland to really hammer down with traditional.

I probably just started a drum nerd fight there. :D
03-13-2018, 10:27 AM
DawgInMemphis

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xtracheesed

Peart is a one trick pony, which is why he doesn't even make my top 5. Don't get me wrong...Moving Pictures and Power Windows are two of my fave albums ever, and his drum parts are unreal. At least some part of my tinnitus is due to long drives with one or the other blasting at full volume. Are you talking about the Jim Chapin thing? Or maybe I have him confused with someone else. I knew that Neil switched to traditional grip for a while, but he just couldn't play the same that way. It's hard for any drummer not named Stewart Copeland to really hammer down with traditional.

I probably just started a drum nerd fight there. :D

A nerd drum fight? I'll play along - but I'm a far more accomplished guitar picker.

/turns up guitar in the mix
03-13-2018, 10:34 AM
BeardoMSU

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xtracheesed

I probably just started a nerd fight there. :D

My money is on this guy**

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=46w99bZ3W_M
03-13-2018, 10:36 AM
Prediction? Pain.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xtracheesed

It's hard for any drummer not named Stewart Copeland to really hammer down with traditional.

I probably just started a drum nerd fight there. :D

Damn right you did!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=94DeieWZgTM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Kx1GVYPOos

Long live trad grip!

But seriously, some of the best ones shifted back and forth with ease depending upon what they were doing. Mitch Mitchell played most of this solo with Hendrix in trad, but switched over to match briefly when focusing on some tom action:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1KCUg-JmTog

Art Blakey would do the same. This solo's about half trad, half match, but 100% kick-ass:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AiMzjPX3D_w
03-13-2018, 10:39 AM
BeardoMSU

Quote:

Originally Posted by Prediction? Pain.

Damn right you did!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=94DeieWZgTM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Kx1GVYPOos

Long live trad grip!

But seriously, some of the best ones shifted back and forth with ease depending upon what they were doing. Mitch Mitchell played most of this solo with Hendrix in trad, but switched over to match briefly when focusing on some tom action:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1KCUg-JmTog

Art Blakey would do the same. This solo's about half trad, half match, but 100% kick-ass:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AiMzjPX3D_w

Was thinking the same thing, lol.

You can also add Dave Weckl in there, too.
03-13-2018, 10:42 AM
BrunswickDawg

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xtracheesed

Peart is a one trick pony, which is why he doesn't even make my top 5. Don't get me wrong...Moving Pictures and Power Windows are two of my fave albums ever, and his drum parts are unreal. At least some part of my tinnitus is due to long drives with one or the other blasting at full volume. Are you talking about the Jim Chapin thing? Or maybe I have him confused with someone else. I knew that Neil switched to traditional grip for a while, but he just couldn't play the same that way. It's hard for any drummer not named Stewart Copeland to really hammer down with traditional.

I probably just started a drum nerd fight there. :D

This whole thread has been a drum nerd fight.....

I can't remember who it was, but I don't think it was Chapin. It was after he switched back to matched grip, but was dealing with shoulder problems that prevented him from playing long sets. You are right about Copeland too.

I actually have this debate with my son. I am admittedly a wanna-be drummer who tried and gave up due to a lack of musical ability. The boy is a real percussionist who has been the All-District and All-Region Principle Percussionist 5 straight years now (middle and high school). He leans to Chad Smith and Dave Grohl because he has grown up with them, but says he actually enjoys the Butch/Jaimoe/Quinones trio of the modern ABB the most. He likes the unique interplay between the 3 and that it is more like a symphonic percussion section adapted for rock.
03-13-2018, 10:42 AM
BeardoMSU

Quote:

Originally Posted by Prediction? Pain.

Long live trad grip!

Hear, hear!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c5wzHuZJ8UQ
03-13-2018, 11:04 AM
Prediction? Pain.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrunswickDawg

I actually have this debate with my son. I am admittedly a wanna-be drummer who tried and gave up due to a lack of musical ability. The boy is a real percussionist who has been the All-District and All-Region Principle Percussionist 5 straight years now (middle and high school). He leans to Chad Smith and Dave Grohl because he has grown up with them, but says he actually enjoys the Butch/Jaimoe/Quinones trio of the modern ABB the most. He likes the unique interplay between the 3 and that it is more like a symphonic percussion section adapted for rock.

It's interesting that he's drawn to the ABB's set-up. Probably a sign of maturity to show more interest in them than in something driven more by pure power. Those guys were great.

Another similar set-up was the percussion section of Santana's original line-up. Mike Shrieve was great by himself, but the other percussion they had going on added so much to those first few records (Santana, Abraxas, and Santana III are all so great). Just recently happened upon an hour-long set from 1970 on YouTube that is well worth a look:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P8dGh1iEmCY

Oh, and Shrieve? Another frequent worshiper at the Church of Trad:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTrx_0vfE64
03-13-2018, 03:18 PM
bubbacheese

Nice thread. I don't believe John Bonham's importance to drumming and rock music can be overstated. He was a HUGE influence on me as I was learning my way around a drum set. Staying away from studio legends like Steve Gadd and Jim Keltner, I think a few others deserve mention: Stewart Copeland, Tim "Herb" Alexander, Rob Hirst, Glenn Kotche, Jeff "Apt Q-258" Sipe, Alan White, Zigaboo (funk-rock), Steve Smith, Jeff Porcaro. Drummers like Keith Moon, Ginger Baker and Carter Beauford really don't do much for me (again personally). They're incredible drummers. But even in rock and roll - a GROOVE is essential. Bonham had power, grace, speed, precision and a groove that was a mile wide. A rock band's dream drummer, severe alcoholism aside. I don't categorize Neil Peart as a "rock drummer". He's so unique that I just refer to him as "Rush's Drummer". A childhood hero of mine. Bizarre approach, killer single stroke speed, impeccable musicality, great songwriter but limited from a hand/foot coordination standpoint. That coordination isn't all that important in rock music...but I've seen him attempt jazz and it was a little scary. Put a Zigaboo linear groove in front of him and he may fall off the drum throne.
03-13-2018, 04:58 PM
Uncivilengineer

Bubba, what up dog.
03-13-2018, 05:39 PM
Barking 13

drummers spontaneously combust ....................
03-13-2018, 05:56 PM
Bothrops

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xtracheesed

Man. Couldn't agree more on all points. (and AJFA is my vote for greatest metal album of all time) If you can find the article, there was a write-up on how that album was recorded. The engineer (Bob Rock?) told Lars that he was hitting so hard that they had to stop every 8 bars or so to re-tune. The truth is that Lars can't keep time to save his life and speeds up every song, and (I believe) refused to change his playing. They spliced it all together at the end somehow.

There is a somewhat recent clip of them doing One floating around somewhere. Lars doesn't even make an effort to play that part anymore. :(

Justice was a devastating album, even though the bass feed was lost in the mix. I can still listen to that album today and feel like I'm turning into a werewolf or something. The riffs are so harsh, but excellent.

When I was a teen I used to tell people to play that record in their car and turn the volume way up, if their speakers didn't fart, they had a good sound system.
03-13-2018, 07:31 PM
BeachDawg

Have to throw a shout out for Bill Bruford-King Crimson and YES. KC is a pretty tough listen for a lot of folks but the guy is really good!
03-13-2018, 08:47 PM
Spiderman

Quote:

Originally Posted by BeardoMSU

Ginger Baker might have something to say about that...**

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_Cf-s72hig

Love John Bon, but agree, Baker, although if possible crazier than Moon the Loon and John, was a genius.

Both are in Top 5.

Along with Moon, just because he was so original, and the most under rated drummer of all time, Charlie Watts.

Number 5?

They are legion, but I go with, (ducks from thrown objects, he was the most natural of his time) Tommy Lee or Rick Allen just because he was good enough to do it with only one arm. Now that is talent.
03-14-2018, 07:45 AM
BrunswickDawg

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spiderman

Love John Bon, but agree, Baker, although if possible crazier than Moon the Loon and John, was a genius.

Both are in Top 5.

Along with Moon, just because he was so original, and the most under rated drummer of all time, Charlie Watts.

Number 5?

They are legion, but I go with, (ducks from thrown objects, he was the most natural of his time) Tommy Lee or Rick Allen just because he was good enough to do it with only one arm. Now that is talent.

You definitely have to give some props to Rick Allen. No one has ever done what he did
03-15-2018, 01:13 PM
Xtracheesed

Quote:

Originally Posted by bubbacheese

Nice thread. I don't believe John Bonham's importance to drumming and rock music can be overstated. He was a HUGE influence on me as I was learning my way around a drum set. Staying away from studio legends like Steve Gadd and Jim Keltner, I think a few others deserve mention: Stewart Copeland, Tim "Herb" Alexander, Rob Hirst, Glenn Kotche, Jeff "Apt Q-258" Sipe, Alan White, Zigaboo (funk-rock), Steve Smith, Jeff Porcaro. Drummers like Keith Moon, Ginger Baker and Carter Beauford really don't do much for me (again personally). They're incredible drummers. But even in rock and roll - a GROOVE is essential. Bonham had power, grace, speed, precision and a groove that was a mile wide. A rock band's dream drummer, severe alcoholism aside. I don't categorize Neil Peart as a "rock drummer". He's so unique that I just refer to him as "Rush's Drummer". A childhood hero of mine. Bizarre approach, killer single stroke speed, impeccable musicality, great songwriter but limited from a hand/foot coordination standpoint. That coordination isn't all that important in rock music...but I've seen him attempt jazz and it was a little scary. Put a Zigaboo linear groove in front of him and he may fall off the drum throne.

Bubbacheese, I think I know you. Downstroke, nifty percussion chops with Law Of Nature, Downstairs McMahan, other side projects I saw/heard that escape me...?
03-15-2018, 01:17 PM
Xtracheesed

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spiderman

Love John Bon, but agree, Baker, although if possible crazier than Moon the Loon and John, was a genius.

Both are in Top 5.

Along with Moon, just because he was so original, and the most under rated drummer of all time, Charlie Watts.

Number 5?

They are legion, but I go with, (ducks from thrown objects, he was the most natural of his time) Tommy Lee or Rick Allen just because he was good enough to do it with only one arm. Now that is talent.

Bonham could make anniieeeethang swing and groove. Swang even. Anything. Then he could make it musical and interesting on top of that. That's what puts him in a category of one.

Speaking of Rick Allen, he was a traditional grip player back in the day. He never gets his cred. Great pocket, laid-back timing, filled enough to drive the songs but not bury them. Great player.
03-15-2018, 01:19 PM
Xtracheesed

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bothrops

Justice was a devastating album, even though the bass feed was lost in the mix. I can still listen to that album today and feel like I'm turning into a werewolf or something.

Ha! Apropos. I shall borrow that phrase.
03-15-2018, 02:42 PM
BrunswickDawg

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xtracheesed

Bubbacheese, I think I know you. Downstroke, nifty percussion chops with Law Of Nature, Downstairs McMahan, other side projects I saw/heard that escape me...?

Law Of Nature - man that takes me back to early 90s Stark.
Law of Nature, Revolver, Better than Ezra, Dash Rip Rock, Bill Cooke and the 80 other people he would play with.

Someone has loaded a lot of Law of Nature tunes on Youtube:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6_ntRrAyufQ

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