Someone is getting a bit nervous about Davis visiting us

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Originally Posted by Dawg61

Maryland is currently #3 and has a National Championship since Knight left. I'd rank the B1G programs like this.

Michigan State
Wisconsin
Ohio State
Michigan
Maryland
Indiana
Purdue
Illinois

Which pretty much puts Indiana as a middle-tier B1G school. You're drunk if you think Ohio State and IU are even the last 15 years.

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I actually very specifically said that Ohio State and Indiana have not been even the last 15 years. Ohio State has had more success, no question. But we're talking about program status, not just most recent success. I definitely disagree that Michigan's program right now is ahead of Indiana's. They had a great two-year stretch under Beilein, but that's it. Maryland has been mediocre for the most part since 03 or 04. You're going to tell me they've surpassed Indiana as a program because of their preseason ranking this year?

I just think a lot of fans make a mistake when evaluating a program based primarily on recent success. At this very moment, Ohio State is a better product because Thad Matta is there. At this very moment, because of two consecutive recruiting classes, Maryland looks set up to have a great year. But if either one lost their coach today along with Indiana, I would argue Indiana would be the one most desired by coaching candidates and would be best set up to have immediate success with the right coaching hire. That's what I base program status on, primarily.

People thought Alabama wasn't the same program anymore and had clearly fallen behind others like LSU and even Tennessee. Sure, Saban would have success anywhere, but he's had far more success at Alabama than he did at Michigan State. Why was Alabama able to hire Saban, and why did he have so much success so quickly? Because it's Alabama. Their program status may have taken a slight hit during the down years, but they just made bad coaching hires.

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Originally Posted by PSYCHO(thesis)DEFENSE

The no fan support point is a completely valid observation as far as recent history is concerned, & a direct result of all the people who quit on Mississippi State basketball when the going got tough. Same ones who now consider themselves heroes who saved the program by pulling their support & sticking it to the administration for personal grievances. Any fan who thinks they deserve credit for abandoning their team in order to influence the new hire deserves just as much credit for the lowly perception of our basketball program. Perception doesn't give a shit about how much fan support we had in 2011. Hence why we must be cheating.

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Can you show me a team in any sport that comes out and packs a stadium, arena, anything when the team is terrible. I think the lack of fans in seats is pretty normal when a team is struggling, is that right probably not but, its just the way things are. Teams that are losing generally don't have a lot of fan support. Look at Cleveland after Lebron left fan support was terrible. He comes back and the place is packed every night. Just part of the game.

FWIW, which probably isn't much, SI ranked Indiana the #9 program in college basketball two years ago. I can't find a more recent list from SI, but they were behind Michigan State (5) and Ohio State (7) in the Big Ten. Wisconsin was 14. The ranking was based on things like recent success, coaching security, budget, facilities, recruiting power, etc. Regardless, Indiana is not and never has been a middle-of-the-pack program, whether it's nationwide or in the Big Ten.

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Originally Posted by BB30

Can you show me a team in any sport that comes out and packs a stadium, arena, anything when the team is terrible. I think the lack of fans in seats is pretty normal when a team is struggling, is that right probably not but, its just the way things are. Teams that are losing generally don't have a lot of fan support. Look at Cleveland after Lebron left fan support was terrible. He comes back and the place is packed every night. Just part of the game.

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South Carolina football. That's the only team that I can think of that's supported even when things are terrible.

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Originally Posted by BB30

Can you show me a team in any sport that comes out and packs a stadium, arena, anything when the team is terrible. I think the lack of fans in seats is pretty normal when a team is struggling, is that right probably not but, its just the way things are. Teams that are losing generally don't have a lot of fan support. Look at Cleveland after Lebron left fan support was terrible. He comes back and the place is packed every night. Just part of the game.

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Nobody wants to come and spend their time watching a team that can't get it done and doesn't appear to be moving in that direction.

Cohen learned that last season as well.

Indiana divorced itself from Bob Knight. All connections terminated. Indiana before 2000 was a top ten All-Time program. Indiana since their divorce is now a top 40 program. They don't get to claim still being top ten when they divorced the reason for that success. Now they are a sad program still wishing for Knight's success to still recruit for them. Won't happen. See Indiana for what they are. A program losing in head to head recruiting to Mississippi State. That's today. That's real. Ranking Indiana #9 isn't real.

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Originally Posted by Dawg61

Indiana divorced itself from Bob Knight. All connections terminated. Indiana before 2000 was a top ten All-Time program. Indiana since their divorce is now a top 40 program. They don't get to claim still being top ten when they divorced the reason for that success. Now they are a sad program still wishing for Knight's success to still recruit for them. Won't happen. See Indiana for what they are. A program losing in head to head recruiting to Mississippi State. That's today. That's real. Ranking Indiana #9 isn't real.

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Hard to argue with this guys. The #9 program shouldn't lose out to Mississippi State.

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Originally Posted by Dawg-gone-dawgs

http://i1068.photobucket.com/albums/...0AM%20copy.jpg.

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What is Davis first name and where does he go to school

De'Ron. Overland High

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Originally Posted by mstatefan91

Hard to argue with this guys. The #9 program shouldn't lose out to Mississippi State.

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Then in that case, I guess Kansas is below 9th as well because they lost to poor ol' Miss State on Herard. Losing out on a recruit or two means nothing, especially when the program they lost to now has Ben Howland and is cleaning up. So we can now establish that Kansas is just a top-40 program. I guess Arizona can be thrown in there as well. Who else?

Arguing that Indiana is no longer close to what they were because they no longer have Bob Knight is a strange argument when you're trying to argue a program like Ohio State has clearly overtaken Indiana. So I guess when Matta leaves, the program gets no credit for what he did, either? They then fall all the way back to what they have been and must prove it all over again?

Indiana had 2 national titles in the 30 years before Knight, and they won 5 Big Ten titles in the 20 years before him. Obviously Knight took them to another level, but the program is an all-time program when looking at their history. Period.

Does Duke instantly fall back to top-40 once Coach K leaves? Because while they will almost certainly take a bit of a dip, he has permanently altered the standing of the program, just like Knight did with Indiana.

I don't think any program is permanently one way or another. If that was the case Harvard, Yale and Army would still rule college football. Things change. Programs change.

Today, the Indiana program is no better than Mississippi State.

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Originally Posted by MSUDawg4Life

I don't think any program is permanently one way or another. If that was the case Harvard, Yale and Army would still rule college football. Things change. Programs change.

Today, the Indiana program is no better than Mississippi State.

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But again, that's basically based entirely on the fact that we hired Ben Howland.

If Calipari up and left for Central Michigan and Kentucky hired John Pelphrey, Central Michigan would be better than Kentucky.

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Originally Posted by smootness

But again, that's basically based entirely on the fact that we hired Ben Howland.

If Calipari up and left for Central Michigan and Kentucky hired John Pelphrey, Central Michigan would be better than Kentucky.

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Smoot, we live in the here and now.

We don't live in the past (well ... some of us don't) and we don't live in the future. We're not recruiting against Bob Knight. We're not recruiting against Coach K's successor.

These kids are making a decision about what college to attend next week. Not twenty years ago or twenty years from now.

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Originally Posted by mstatefan91

Hard to argue with this guys. The #9 program shouldn't lose out to Mississippi State.

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Bottom line is that basketball recruiting is just a different animal. Most recruits put WAY more stock in the coach they will be playing for than the school itself. If school X has a coach with an outstanding reputation of success and developing players for the NBA but less tradition and school Y has a coach with less of a reputation for success and developing players for the NBA but is stocked with basketball tradition, school X is going to win out on a recruit much more than they will lose out on a recruit to school Y in today's world. That's why you see so much player turnover in basketball when any school has a coaching change.

Who is that fat cheeked fu*ker?

Never heard of him.

Gonna drop it after this b/c I've beat it to death, but I'll never agree w/ that mentality. Same mentality of ppl who take their ball & go home when things don't go their way. I don't blame the casual basketball fan for not caring when we suck; I'm a less than casual baseball fan & I lost interest in MSU's team down the stretch last year. I blame the season ticket holders & lifelong MSU basketball fans that pulled support b/c things didn't go their way. Not just talking a/b asses in seats either, if you watch the games on TV, that's plenty of support. The ones who I can't understand are those who invested in the program for years, but acted like MSU basketball didn't exist when it didn't reflect favorably upon them.

That part doesn't really bother me though, it's human nature & obviously all fans have different mentalities. The part that irks me is when ppl believe that they contributed to our current success by abandoning the program during the hard times. It is not because of these people, but in spite of these people that we are headed in the right direction. It's selfish & arrogant to assume that you can positively influence the program by turning your back on the team whenever your personal will & desires aren't met.

Lack of fan support did not force our hand w/ Ray - the emergence of Howland as a real candidate forced our hand. Stricklin would've kept Ray whether we had 10000 or 10 in the stands if Howland hadn't emerged. Who's to say Adidas & Howland don't come calling a year earlier when Tenn & Mizzou passed on him, if we as a program boasted a packed Hump & full fan support even for a subpar product? Our appeal and national perception as a basketball program were negatively affected when a large portion of our fanbase were revealed as fair weather fans, and boosters revealed as sullen children, whether we choose to acknowledge it now or not. The Hump was far more embarrassing the last 3 years than anything the team or coaches did.

But I'm glad we have ppl we can count on to pull their support when we need them most! Don't know where we'd be w/o these guys! Hell if we lose a nonconference game this year, let's all just sit at home & watch American Idol, & we'll end up w/ Coach K or Phil Jackson before we know it!

Dead horse beaten. I'm satisfied.

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Originally Posted by PSYCHO(thesis)DEFENSE

Lack of fan support did not force our hand w/ Ray - the emergence of Howland as a real candidate forced our hand. Stricklin would've kept Ray whether we had 10000 or 10 in the stands if Howland hadn't emerged.

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Yes- 100% dead on.

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Originally Posted by smootness

Then in that case, I guess Kansas is below 9th as well because they lost to poor ol' Miss State on Herard. Losing out on a recruit or two means nothing, especially when the program they lost to now has Ben Howland and is cleaning up. So we can now establish that Kansas is just a top-40 program. I guess Arizona can be thrown in there as well. Who else?

Arguing that Indiana is no longer close to what they were because they no longer have Bob Knight is a strange argument when you're trying to argue a program like Ohio State has clearly overtaken Indiana. So I guess when Matta leaves, the program gets no credit for what he did, either? They then fall all the way back to what they have been and must prove it all over again?

Indiana had 2 national titles in the 30 years before Knight, and they won 5 Big Ten titles in the 20 years before him. Obviously Knight took them to another level, but the program is an all-time program when looking at their history. Period.

Does Duke instantly fall back to top-40 once Coach K leaves? Because while they will almost certainly take a bit of a dip, he has permanently altered the standing of the program, just like Knight did with Indiana.

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Since 2000 Ohio State has seven B1G titles. Indiana has two. Yes since Bob Knight left Ohio State has surpassed Indiana as a basketball program.

From an ousiders point of view, I would love to live in Starkville, if the opportunity was there. Starkville is a small town, but that's exactly what many look for in a home. The reason some folk want to belittle another university is obvious, but what has Oxford got that makes it a better place to live ? I've been there and if I'm looking for something more to offer than Starkville I must have missed it. If I'm a prospective student or athlete, I would like both because they're small southern towns. But, we chose Starkville/MSU, primarily because of the friendly people. ..real southern hospitality not a bunch of snooty ( no all but many were) self appointed elitest wanna bee's. JMHO

Why is this an argument about Indiana's "place"? Should just be a bunch of excitement about us having the opportunity to pull the only true 4 that we are chasing -- and enjoying the opportunity to revel in their fanbase's anxiousness...

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Originally Posted by engie

Why is this an argument about Indiana's "place"? Should just be a bunch of excitement about us having the opportunity to pull the only true 4 that we are chasing -- and enjoying the opportunity to revel in their fanbase's anxiousness...

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Oh I'm excited. You can believe that. I'm also pissed at this douche editor for IU so that means it's ok to shit on Indiana in this thread.

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