This is the kind of stuff that makes me afraid Ray will never get it done at MSU...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dawg61

How's that for insane

---

Yep, still insane.

You keep moving the goalposts. First it's, 'Just fill the roster, I don't care who it is'. Then it's, 'I don't care if the roster is full, the players aren't good enough'. Then it's, 'Look at Tennessee, they were able to add a bunch of players!' Then when someone points out that we have no idea how good those 8 players are, you respond with, 'It doesn't matter how good they are, we can't even fill the roster!' Then we get a transfer to fill the roster, and it's back to a quality argument...

I love these threads it is Dawg61 vs smoot and engie .By the way by not getting the Wake Forest transfer or Lang what chance does Ray have with Newman. When he loses Newman the moving truck will be pulling up to his backdoor.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CadaverDawg

Hell yes, C222. Dropping knowledge, I love it. And good info. Any others you know of?

---

The fact of the matter is this. The dumpster fire that Rick Ray inherited was as bad as the dumpster fire that Scott Drew inherited at Baylor. Scott Drew didn't have a winning season at Baylor until his 5th year. This program was such a dumpster fire that the likes of Bryce Drew and the Murray State coach wanted no part of it.

The hate on Rick Ray has very little to do with the product on the floor and has everything to do with who he isn't. He isn't Kenny Payne and doesn't have Kenny's connection with the handlers of the AAU racket. He can coach circles around Kenny Payne from an x's and o's standpoint though.

This horse has been beaten beyond death, it's a bloody pulp now. Wait one more year, and then we will all know where the basketball program stands and be able to judge it and Ray. For now just keep calm about it all, and grow out your wool for football season.

He's filling the last spot with an undersized bench player that won't play this year so nope I'm not gonna count that bullshit. Replace the 13th spot with someone that will actually help us THIS YEAR. Doesn't matter cause he won't get him anyways.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dawg61

He's filling the last spot with an undersized bench player that won't play this year so nope I'm not gonna count that bullshit. Replace the 13th spot with someone that will actually help us THIS YEAR. Doesn't matter cause he won't get him anyways.

---

Like I said, constantly moving the goalposts. I don't know why I keep getting sucked into this.

I understand that this is a slower process for us than it would be for a Duke or someone, but we need to at least start competing. Meaning no more losing by 30, losing to TCU at home, stuff like that. I don't think it should be anything like winning the NIT or getting to the NCAA or fire him, but we need to be competitive or we won't be able to recruit, win in the future, etc

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KB21

The fact of the matter is this. The dumpster fire that Rick Ray inherited was as bad as the dumpster fire that Scott Drew inherited at Baylor. Scott Drew didn't have a winning season at Baylor until his 5th year. This program was such a dumpster fire that the likes of Bryce Drew and the Murray State coach wanted no part of it.

The hate on Rick Ray has very little to do with the product on the floor and has everything to do with who he isn't. He isn't Kenny Payne and doesn't have Kenny's connection with the handlers of the AAU racket. He can coach circles around Kenny Payne from an x's and o's standpoint though.

---

Um no Ray wasn't left with a program that had a player GET MURDERED. Comparing Drew and Ray is ridiculous. Drew had to deal with major punishments dealt out by the NCAA including half a season not being allowed to play any games. Oh yea and one of the players got MURDERED. In these circles that Ray coaches around Payne include how to beat a 1-3-1 zone? Payne could go eat hotdogs with Calipari while his Nike All-Stars rip new assholes into Ray's x's and o's masters of basketball fundamentals.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dawg61

Um no Ray wasn't left with a program that had a player GET MURDERED. Comparing Drew and Ray is ridiculous. Drew had to deal with major punishments dealt out by the NCAA including half a season not being allowed to play any games. Oh yea and one of the players got MURDERED. In these circles that Ray coaches around Payne include how to beat a 1-3-1 zone? Payne could go eat hotdogs with Calipari while his Nike All-Stars rip new assholes into Ray's x's and o's masters of basketball fundamentals.

---

So you support cheating to win. Just admit it, like I said earlier. This is obviously why you have mentioned a known cheater in Bruce Pearl in this thread and also support the way Kentucky puts those Nike All Star teams together. Personally, I don't support cheating.

Anyone who wanted Kenny Payne should be automatically banned from the discussion.

Late to this awesome party ** - serious question: Didn't Auburn have 2 of the top 3 or 4 scorers in the SEC this year and still finish near the bottom? Can we all agree that scoring 25 ppg for Niagara is different than for some other actually recognizable NCAA team? My point is this: why is this no-name transfer causing y'all to return to this vomit of an argument? I am open to correction and may be wrong, but typically in college basketball, more even distribution of scoring leads to higher chances of winning (see UK and UF in the SEC). This guy may go for 30 against us (hopefully not), but that doesn't mean we automatically lose. Again, let's wait and see what happens in a few months. And let's at least use this offseason to enjoy our football hype and not tear each other up over the same recycled basketball thread.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KB21

So you support cheating to win. Just admit it, like I said earlier. This is obviously why you have mentioned a known cheater in Bruce Pearl in this thread and also support the way Kentucky puts those Nike All Star teams together. Personally, I don't support cheating.

---

Ever heard the phrases not cheating if you don't get caught and ain't cheating ya ain't trying?

I'm not saying we should cheat, but we should be better than we are

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DudyDawg

Ever heard the phrases not cheating if you don't get caught and ain't cheating ya ain't trying?

I'm not saying we should cheat, but we should be better than we are

---

It's not a foul if the Ref doesn't blow the whistle. Ray is raiding Samford for a guys scoring 11 a game? Sounds about right.

Hey, we should be loaded this year. Haven't you guys seen the practice videos we have been releasing?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by smootness

We would be at 13 whether he's able to play immediately or not.

---

I pray we sign a guy at Sanderson to get to 13 just to get him to shut up about the 13 full roster. Who cares if we are at 13 if number 13 can't play dead? Being full in itself doesn't mean crap. But it makes dawg61 happy.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KB21

The fact of the matter is this. The dumpster fire that Rick Ray inherited was as bad as the dumpster fire that Scott Drew inherited at Baylor. Scott Drew didn't have a winning season at Baylor until his 5th year. This program was such a dumpster fire that the likes of Bryce Drew and the Murray State coach wanted no part of it.

The hate on Rick Ray has very little to do with the product on the floor and has everything to do with who he isn't. He isn't Kenny Payne and doesn't have Kenny's connection with the handlers of the AAU racket. He can coach circles around Kenny Payne from an x's and o's standpoint though.

---

How can you say that? Kenny Payne has done a great job head coaching at ........**********

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KB21

So you support cheating to win. Just admit it, like I said earlier. This is obviously why you have mentioned a known cheater in Bruce Pearl in this thread and also support the way Kentucky puts those Nike All Star teams together. Personally, I don't support cheating.

---

I haven't once said we should be cheating. You said that. Twice. You really think Donnie Tyndall just showed up and started cheating his ass off to sign 8 new players in a month? I don't think so. Ray's direct competition is Calipari, Pearl, Donovan, Kennedy, Martin etc.. and those coaches are having no issues signing immediate impact transfers. We haven't signed one. It's about to be year three. Not one. Tyndall signed 3 transfers in less than 30 days. MSU has signed 0 in 850 days. Zero.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KB21

The fact of the matter is this. The dumpster fire that Rick Ray inherited was as bad as the dumpster fire that Scott Drew inherited at Baylor. Scott Drew didn't have a winning season at Baylor until his 5th year. This program was such a dumpster fire that the likes of Bryce Drew and the Murray State coach wanted no part of it.

The hate on Rick Ray has very little to do with the product on the floor and has everything to do with who he isn't. He isn't Kenny Payne and doesn't have Kenny's connection with the handlers of the AAU racket. He can coach circles around Kenny Payne from an x's and o's standpoint though.

---

comparing the state of the MSU program when Ray got here to the Baylor when Drew got there may be the most insane thing I have seen posted on this message board.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by preachermatt83

comparing the state of the MSU program when Ray got here to the Baylor when Drew got there may be the most insane thing I have seen posted on this message board.

---

Agreed x1000. Oh well, it will play out one way or the other and someone is going to have a mountain of egg on their face. I am leaning towards Ray doesn't work out but that is just me.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jimbo352

JMO.... The sooner we admit the Rick Ray experiment was a failure, the faster we can get back to being a top tier SEC BB program.

---

Depends on whether or not he gets the crootin machine together.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by preachermatt83

we are gonna stick with ray for 2 more years with no progress and then no one is gonna wanna coach here.

---

Kenny Payne will apparently still be available.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KB21

The fact of the matter is this. The dumpster fire that Rick Ray inherited was as bad as the dumpster fire that Scott Drew inherited at Baylor. Scott Drew didn't have a winning season at Baylor until his 5th year. This program was such a dumpster fire that the likes of Bryce Drew and the Murray State coach wanted no part of it.

The hate on Rick Ray has very little to do with the product on the floor and has everything to do with who he isn't. He isn't Kenny Payne and doesn't have Kenny's connection with the handlers of the AAU racket. He can coach circles around Kenny Payne from an x's and o's standpoint though.

---

What have you seen that makes Ray a good x and O guy. Name something he has done that makes you go WOW that guy can Coach. I haven't seen it. A 1-3-1 blew his mind. He didn't have a clue. I will take talent over Xs and Os anyday.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by HoopsDawg

It's not a foul if the Ref doesn't blow the whistle. Ray is raiding Samford for a guys scoring 11 a game? Sounds about right.

Hey, we should be loaded this year. Haven't you guys seen the practice videos we have been releasing?

---

The problem with the videos is it is against our players. I've seen several average players look great against us. Who hasn't looked good.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KB21

The hate on Rick Ray has very little to do with the product on the floor and has everything to do with who he isn't. He isn't Kenny Payne and doesn't have Kenny's connection with the handlers of the AAU racket. He can coach circles around Kenny Payne from an x's and o's standpoint though.

---

I disagree. Winning takes care of everything. Everyone, including me, would gladly shut up about the lack of production and the incessant problems if he starts winning. He did inherit a mess, but it doesn't take long to fix a basketball team and he's taking a long time just to "not suck."

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tcdog70

The problem with the videos is it is against our players. I've seen several average players look great against us. Who hasn't looked good.

---

You bring a lot to the table. Good job!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KB21

The fact of the matter is this. The dumpster fire that Rick Ray inherited was as bad as the dumpster fire that Scott Drew inherited at Baylor. Scott Drew didn't have a winning season at Baylor until his 5th year. This program was such a dumpster fire that the likes of Bryce Drew and the Murray State coach wanted no part of it.

The hate on Rick Ray has very little to do with the product on the floor and has everything to do with who he isn't. He isn't Kenny Payne and doesn't have Kenny's connection with the handlers of the AAU racket. He can coach circles around Kenny Payne from an x's and o's standpoint though.

---

Last time I checked we didn't have players murdering each other, pending major ncaa sanctions hanging over our head, AND have the program damn near death penalty'd for a season when they were prevented from playing non-conf games and only allowed to play conference games to prevent hurting the rest of the conference.

Yep, basically the same thing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Political Hack

I disagree. Winning takes care of everything. Everyone, including me, would gladly shut up about the lack of production and the incessant problems if he starts winning. He did inherit a mess, but it doesn't take long to fix a basketball team and he's taking a long time just to "not suck."

---

http://img1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb2.../7/73/This.gif

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Political Hack

I disagree. Winning takes care of everything. Everyone, including me, would gladly shut up about the lack of production and the incessant problems if he starts winning. He did inherit a mess, but it doesn't take long to fix a basketball team and he's taking a long time just to "not suck."

---

Bingo. I'd much rather be good at basketball again than be right on the Internet.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dawgs

Bingo. I'd much rather be good at basketball again than be right on the Internet.

---

Wow, that is just beautifully put. Well said

Yeah I just get annoyed and tired of the pro-ray crowd that keeps saying those of us voicing our concerns/doubts/lack of faith would rather see ray fail than succeed. No we would rather win than anything, it's just we don't see any reasons to be overly optimistic about ray getting it done, and we vocalize what we see happening. That's not the same thing as hoping he fails.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dawgs

Yeah I just get annoyed and tired of the pro-ray crowd that keeps saying those of us voicing our concerns/doubts/lack of faith would rather see ray fail than succeed. No we would rather win than anything, it's just we don't see any reasons to be overly optimistic about ray getting it done, and we vocalize what we see happening. That's not the same thing as hoping he fails.

---

There's a difference between the crowd you fall into -- and the ones that actually ARE actively hoping Ray fails. And, yes, there are a number of posters and State fans that fall into that category.

There is no "pro-Ray" crowd that I'm aware of. There's simply a crowd that says he hasn't gotten a fair shake yet and shouldn't be judged on results until this upcoming season -- and then there's those that are jumping to conclusions based on what's happening in the pits of the rebuild. That -- and having a faction of the fanbase actively sabotaging your efforts to rebuild over loyalty to the previous coach -- is what that makes it similar to the baseball transition. That's not to say it will work out as well -- just a cautionary tale about what you can take from the early parts of a rebuild -- especially one with the situational issues we had.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by engie

There's a difference between the crowd you fall into -- and the ones that actually ARE actively hoping Ray fails. And, yes, there are a number of posters and State fans that fall into that category.

There is no "pro-Ray" crowd that I'm aware of. There's simply a crowd that says he hasn't gotten a fair shake yet and shouldn't be judged on results until this upcoming season -- and then there's those that are jumping to conclusions based on what's happening in the pits of the rebuild. That -- and having a faction of the fanbase actively sabotaging your efforts to rebuild over loyalty to the previous coach -- is what that makes it similar to the baseball transition. That's not to say it will work out as well -- just a cautionary tale about what you can take from the early parts of a rebuild -- especially one with the situational issues we had.

---

Well said

You ever watch a bad movie and make comments about why it is bad and how it could be better during the movie? What about making comments during an ass-whoopin in a football or baseball game? Well consider the Ray experiment a very long bad movie or game-thread that has lasted going on 3 years now.

At some point he has to win over those boosters or win in spite of them. Sucks for him, but I just want to win and of he can't get them on board or do it without them, then time to move along. Of course Cohen also had a successful track record as a HC and was one of the hottest coaches in the country when we hired him, whereas ray did not, therefore Cohen was given a lot more benefit of the doubt. (I know you and others don't agree with that reasoning, but I think it's clear as day...if one guy has done it before, you trust him through the rebuilding stages more than the guy that's never done it before and doesn't have the track record to suggest he's got it in him)

And do other programs have this kinda shit go on? Seems like naming a few names publicly around the message boards of those that are causing the problems could at least stop the active sabotaging.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dawgs

At some point he has to win over those boosters or win in spite of them. Sucks for him, but I just want to win and of he can't get them on board or do it without them, then time to move along. Of course Cohen also had a successful track record as a HC and was one of the hottest coaches in the country when we hired him, whereas ray did not, therefore Cohen was given a lot more benefit of the doubt. (I know you and others don't agree with that reasoning, but I think it's clear as day...if one guy has done it before, you trust him through the rebuilding stages more than the guy that's never done it before and doesn't have the track record to suggest he's got it in him)

And do other programs have this kinda shit go on? Seems like naming a few names publicly around the message boards of those that are causing the problems could at least stop the active sabotaging.

---

if he does win, does he leave to get closer to home? That's a question that hasn't really been brought up but if we sit around for five years for a winning season to see him bolt after 1 or 2 good seasons, it'll set us back another half decade. That was never an issue with Cohen and that's why it was the right decision to give him time.

So, with Cohen having all of that stuff on his resume, should it not, then, actually afford Ray MORE patience?

We've seen the difficulties faced by one of probably the top 10-15 coaches in the country at a traditional top 20 baseball program during a rebuild with a HIGH percentage of the support structure sabotaging him behind the scenes IN SPITE OF his accolades. THAT good of coach had THAT much trouble getting the ball rolling at MSU...and we are STILL not quite at the level I expect to be/hold under him

By proxy, we are supposed to expect Ray to be better -- get it done faster -- facing the same(and in many ways worse) difficulties -- at a program that is, at best, a top 50 program traditionally?

I get that "he doesn't have the resume"... and that was an issue upon his hiring. But he's here now -- and he deserves a fair shake before it's time to discuss getting rid of him. To me, that's this year. He either gets the ball rolling significantly -- or I'm ready to go another direction as well. By ball rolling significantly, I mean making a postseason tournament of some description...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Political Hack

if he does win, does he leave to get closer to home? That's a question that hasn't really been brought up but if we sit around for five years for a winning season to see him bolt after 1 or 2 good seasons, it'll set us back another half decade. That was never an issue with Cohen and that's why it was the right decision to give him time.

---

So would he pull a Counzo Martin? Idk that is his good buddy though so maybe but one thing is for damn sure he won't have a Jordan McRae and Jarnell Stokes to get him into the Sweet16.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Political Hack

if he does win, does he leave to get closer to home? That's a question that hasn't really been brought up but if we sit around for five years for a winning season to see him bolt after 1 or 2 good seasons, it'll set us back another half decade. That was never an issue with Cohen and that's why it was the right decision to give him time.

---

Why would him leaving us with a successful program "set us back a half decade"? It'd tee us up to make a significantly higher profile hire, with alot more money to throw at it, and a much more attractive situation than the one we hired Ray into.

Let's face it -- at this point, the SEC only has 2 consistent destination jobs.

basketball players transfer at a pretty high rate when their coaches leave. It shouldn't take a half decade, but it would be a year adjustment period before a new coach could field his team. So, essentially, we'd have 1-2 good years in about 10+ due to coaching transitions.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by engie

So, with Cohen having all of that stuff on his resume, should it not, then, actually afford Ray MORE patience?

We've seen the difficulties faced by one of probably the top 10-15 coaches in the country at a traditional top 20 baseball program during a rebuild with a HIGH percentage of the support structure sabotaging him behind the scenes IN SPITE OF his accolades. THAT good of coach had THAT much trouble getting the ball rolling at MSU...and we are STILL not quite at the level I expect to be/hold under him

By proxy, we are supposed to expect Ray to be better -- get it done faster -- facing the same(and in many ways worse) difficulties -- at a program that is, at best, a top 50 program traditionally?

I get that "he doesn't have the resume"... and that was an issue upon his hiring. But he's here now -- and he deserves a fair shake before it's time to discuss getting rid of him. To me, that's this year. He either gets the ball rolling significantly -- or I'm ready to go another direction as well. By ball rolling significantly, I mean making a postseason tournament of some description...

---

More patience for a guy that may not have and has not given any indication of having the ability to build a program is foolish.

More patience for a guy that you know has the ability to build a program actually makes sense.

If someone has shown genius they can do it again. If someone hasn't shown genius, they just might not be a genius, and waiting for the to show it is pointless.

Your logic of given an unproven coach more time to develop makes no sense to me. Of course part of that still goes back to the point that we shouldn't be hiring a guy that has no HC resume and/or isn't a highly regarded assistant for a hall of game type HC. We shouldn't be hiring a guy that's this much of a question mark and needs years to learn to be a HC at any collegiate level, not just a major conference level.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dawgs

More patience for a guy that may not have and has not given any indication of having the ability to build a program is foolish.

---

How so? Being ready to fire someone in year 2 of something that was always going to take 3 years before judgement time is unfair. It's not giving him "more" patience -- it's giving him a fair shake period.

Quote:

---

More patience for a guy that you know has the ability to build a program actually makes sense.

---

There are plenty of guys that have proven they have the ability to build a program that failed miserably at their next stop. There is no perfect formula on that.

Quote:

---

If someone has shown genius they can do it again. If someone hasn't shown genius, they just might not be a genius, and waiting for the to show it is pointless.

---

Or they might actually be a genius that inherited bad circumstances on the front end? I'm not saying he is -- I'm saying it's still too early to make a call on this either way. John Cohen sure looked like an idiot that was in over his head at this point in 2010. I'm just saying.

Quote:

---

Your logic of given an unproven coach more time to develop makes no sense to me. Of course part of that still goes back to the point that we shouldn't be hiring a guy that has no HC resume and/or isn't a highly regarded assistant for a hall of game type HC. We shouldn't be hiring a guy that's this much of a question mark and needs years to learn to be a HC at any collegiate level, not just a major conference level.

---

And alot of what you just said is the negative Rick Ray propaganda originating from "those with an agenda". Research his actual history and you'll find a pretty highly regarded assistant coach that showed beyond traditional levels of success at every stop he made -- and was considered the best recruiter on staff at Clemson and committed the multi-year ACC dPOY...

Now, we hired in a perfect storm of negative circumstances the first time. There's no denying that. He's not "who we wanted". That's been beat to death.

But my issue is this -- what are you actually advocating? Because if it's anything other than pulling the plug right now, what is the point? The real answer will come in 6 months -- and THEN we can make a logical decision on a path that needs to be taken.